Guys, I have been looking at a 416 Rigby for a while and need it badly. I learned yesterday that the individual that owns the rifle I am lusting after handloads for it using 400 gr Hornady bullets and IMR3031!

All the research I have been able to do so far indicates that IMR3031 is WAY to fast for this cartridge! I am now concerned that this gun my be damaged from firing these loads. I have looked it over very closely and see nothing obvious. What do you guys think I should/could do? Afterall, the guy is letting me have it cheap and I NEED it!

Thanks,
Casey

Ask the seller if you may take the rifle to a qualified gunsmith for a thorough going over. I can't think of any physical/mechanical problem that would arise by shooting loads with that powder.

[ 11-03-2002, 17:41: Message edited by: mikeh416Rigby ]

Casey,

Just a thought, but you might check this out.
CZ550 416 Rigby

New rifle you don't have to worry about what's been fired through it. Seems like a good deal.
Just a thought

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Rusty, the rifle is a Ruger, and I just like the lines of that rifle better than the CZ. The guy is asking about what the CZ cost new for this used Ruger that is why I am in such need!

I will not post the actual load this guy has been shooting, but the powder charge with the IMR3031 is over 100 grains! He is shooting Hornady 400 grain soft points. Checking my Hornady loading manual I learned that this guy's IMR3031 load utilizes a bigger powder charge than what Hornady's MAX IMR4831 load of 93.7 gr is! This is why I am concerned about the integrity of this rifle.

If he does let me take it to a gunsmith, what tests should I have the gunsmith perform to make sure that nothing is wrong with this rifle?

Thanks,
Casey

Casey, over 100 grs of IMR3031 in a 416 Rigby with a 400 gr bullet is one hell of a load!

Even in the Barnes book useing a 400 gr monolithic solid, or 400 gr XFB A "MAX" load of H4831 is 104.0, and IMR4831 is 96.0, and IMR7828 is 106.0, Rl22 is 104.0, and those loads are absolute MAX, with much slower powders than 3031!

If you have this rifle checked, have a chamber cast done to see if the chamber is swollen, and check head space! Personally I would pass! The Ruger is a strong rifle, but anything can be abused into submission!

MacD37, thanks for the info! Is there any tell-tale signs I can look for in the rifle that will alert me that damage has been done?

Thanks,
Casey

90 grains of 3031 would be around the maximum load in a 416 Wby with 400 grain bullets. So I would say in the slightly smaller 416 Rigby case it might be about 87 or 88 or so. By maximum in the Rigby, I mean loaded to normal maximum 270 etc. type pressures, not original pressures for 2400 and 400 grain bullets.

If over (how much "over"?) 100 grains of 3031 was the load in the 416 Rigby in question, then each load would require a mallet on the bolt handle and ramrod down the barrel for extraction. If this load was actually used a few times then the bolt face would be quite badly burnt. Of course each case fired with such a load would be ruined with one shot.

Mike

CASEY,

What Mac said. Also I would have your smith check for lug setback. If there is any lug setback I would definitly pass. With a little bit of searching you should be able to turn up a few .416 Rigby Ruger 77's in the $900 to $1,200 dollar range.

When I get into the lab tomorrow I will run that on Quickload for you. I have played a good deal with the Rigby on QL, and I recall its max pressure to be 47,137psi. That load of 3031 seems to be really pushing it.

Kristofer

[ 11-04-2002, 03:10: Message edited by: KBGuns ]

I think I know what's going on here.

He mistakingly said 3031,when he MEANT some other powder.It's easy to get those numbers mixed up ya know.I used to get IMR-4198 mixed up with IMR-4831 all the time (luckfully never at the reloading bench!!).

Take it to a gunsmith and have the headspace checked, takes all of 10 minutes...

AH HA! An interesting thread for a change!

Casey,

You got the right idea in looking for a 416 Rigby.

That load of over 100 grains of IMR 3031 with 400 grainers in a 416 Rigby does indeed sound like a bomb. As Brian suggested, maybe the guy is confused? If he has been using 100 grains of IMR-4831, O.K.

If he has been using 100 grains of IMR-3031, that should be a stock cracker if anything would be in ye olde Ruger.

As suggested above, ditto. I would be very leery of buying that gun. It may not be such a great bargain, of course, if it has already been wrecked.

A "ringed" chamber? Look at the brass and run your calipers over it, short of getting the chamber cast done.

Locking lug set back? Check the headspace with the no-go guage of your local gunsmith or wherever you can find one.

Pull the gun out of the stock to check for cracks, repairs, or any "creative" bedding modifications.

Sounds like a lot of trouble. I would just pass. Sounds suspicious for such a steal, eh?

I really think the CZ 550 Safari Magnum is better than the Ruger regarding it's bedding system. You don't get the integral rib, but you do get an integral express sight base on the barrel with the CZ. I like the CZ stock, some don't. Changing the safety to a 3-position on the CZ is on the wish list.

The Ruger and CZ are both fine factory guns. My fat barrel Ruger is freakishly accurate, but the CZ is a 3/4 MOA 3-shot grouper, and more than good enough for scope use, especially since it is so light compared to my Ruger, which I now like to shoot express sights only, to make full use of those great open sights, especially since it weighs so much with a scope.

The new slimmer barreled Ruger 416 Rigby's are about 1/2 to 3/4 pound heavier than the CZ, depending on wood variation.

The Ruger may appear classier and prettier on the surface than the CZ, but underneath, it is not.

Either gun can be brought up to anyone's standards for a factory gun made over to DGR, IMHO, but in the end it is a wash to correct either gun to ideal, or to just start from scratch with a BBK-01 action.

A Dakota, Searcy, Johansen ... an original Oberndorf magnum Mauser by Rigby ... well ... better resale value, but you got to tie up a lot of money, then find the greater fool than me to untie it. I lust after this sort of "investment" more than any antique double rifle.

FWIW, these are the ramblings of a little guy who is trying to ignore the trolls and not become one himself. Dreaming of Africa.

[ 11-04-2002, 04:34: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

Thanks tons guys. I called the guy and he will pull it apart for me so I can see the bedding. He said that the bedding system is not the factory original and it has been restocked. I am now very curious to see what he did to the gun.

I suppose he could have mispoken about the powder. I will ask him to double check when I see the gun. If all goes well I will be able to look the rifle over next Saturday. I will push for a gunsmith visit then.

Thanks again,
Casey

OVER 100 grains?
quickload calls that 99k psi...

check and see if he wasn't shooting 4831...

hope the gun is a shooter and a deal, as I am always jealous of someone else getting a rigby.

jeffe

Spoke to the gentleman this afternoon. I asked him about the powder he was using. He said it is IMR3031. I then asked him if where sure and he again said, "yep it is the same powder I use in the 308 and the 458 WM. Most people think it is too fast, but in a big case like the Rigby it works just fine." After reading Jeffeosso's post about what QL said the pressure should be I am afraid, very afraid.

Casey

Casey,

I wouldn't take that gun on a bet. A history of being shot with ridiculous powder charges coupled with "non factory" bedding further coupled with apparently necessary restocking equals "seriously screwed up gun that someone is trying to unload" in my book. Buy a Winchester in .416 Rem Mag. The gun is reasonably priced, shoots well and can be made into a serious DGR with a little work (work that is required on ANY factory gun IMHO). Further, the round is just more practical than the Rigby and every bit as effective. So There, RAB

JohnTheGreek

John, I think you are right. My curiousity is piqued I just have to see this gun torn down! I am talking a magnifying glass. I want to see if I can discern any cracks!

I will let you all know what I find out.

Casey

dang,
and I forgot how nice it was to work all together, again.

thanks
jeffe

Casey,

If you want a Ruger, I want to sell mine. It is only a year old and has been well taken care of.
I have two 416 Rigbys so I have been thinking of selling mine.

Sorry for the ignorance, but what does "DGR" mean? Also, there are too many good guns out there that have not been abused to death to mess with a good deal. There have been too many "good deals" in the past that have turned out to be nightmares later. I too have known "expert reloaders" that think that one powder is good for everything.

DGR stands for dangerous game rifle. Don't appologize for your ignorance. The only stupid questions are the ones not asked.

Casey,
So the guy is an idiot? After you have looked at the inside of the homemade stock on that gun, and, for curiosity sake/educational purposes, looked at the brass and primers (that HE fired), RUN LIKE HELL!

Wow! He has defeated the idea of shooting 40K psi in a big way!

JohnTheGreek,
The "RAB" handle is an impostor who has taken over my initials, getting his jollies in a perverted way. I guess imitation may be other than flattery too, eh? So ... you can call me Ron, or you can call me R.A., or you can call me Dagga, but ya doesn't has ta call me RAB no more.

Really, the 416 Remington Magnum in a factory Winchester M70 Safari Express is a fine one-rifle battery for anything anywhere. I have one, and like it a lot.

Still, my CZ 550 Safari Magnum in 416 Rigby is a few ounces lighter, and is slightly more accurate, out of the box, delivers the same ballistics at 33% less pressure, costs less, and uses the best magazine cartridge ever offered. That is pretty practical.

...or you can call me RonTheIrish ...

Whoa!!! we got a run a way horse here...

All you have to do is check the headspace, if it is OK then the gun is OK, simple as that...All the rest is poppycock...You need not be afraid of any gun that has proper headspace.

If the gun is bad it will have excess headspace and lug set back, one round will set the lugs back, its not a pounding type of thing, end of story...If it does not have excess headspace, then don't let it get away from you...

Forget the wood, a mild load can split wood if its not correctly bedded, and it needs to be glassed anyway...The wood is an indication of nothing!!

Giddyup horsey! Yeehaa!

Dang if I am not going to be looking for other signs and symptoms, collateral damage, other things to fix.

The barrel could have been set back and rechambered, eh?

Could there be a Tubb-type primary action lug installed and a standard secondary recoil lug on the barrel too? This would be great, gotta check several things under the hood if "bomb" loads were used.

Dagga,
Of course the barrel could be set back and rechambered but that would be obvious and the lugs would show that, a gunsmith checking the gun out for headspace, under the circumstances, would catch that...

Personally, I know that shooting over 100 grs. of 3031 would do more than set the lugs back. I believe it would pretty well destroy the wood and metal, split the barrel, or spring the action at least, blow off the extractor and weld the case to the chamber, ruin the bottom metal..

I strongly suspect the owner is full of prunes and knows not of what he speaks..Think about that in terms of burning rate, that would be the equivlent of shooting over 100 grains of RL-7 when a 104 grs.of RL-22 is max.. or over 100 grs. of such powders as H335 or 322, BOOOOOM, the neighbors house and and lawn mower just went south.....

I have no clue what a tub type secondary locking lug would be, did you just make that one up? ...a extra barrel lug would be a plus would it not..

He said it appeared to be a nice clean rifle, this would not be the case if such loads were shot in it IMHO...

Looked at the rifle this morning. As it turns out I won't be able to take it to a smith. I am not too crazy about that.

The rifle looks good. The bolt has been lapped and the action trued. The barrel has a recoil lug dovetailed in to a rib on the bottom side of the barrel. There is a receiver recoil plate sandwiched between the barrel and the receiver. The receiver rib and the barrel 1/4 are beveled and blended to the match the receiver recoil plate. The stock is very pretty peice of california english walnut with an ebony tip. There is a cross bolt behind the receiver recoil plate and a second cross bolt behind the rear tang screw. The rifle weighs 11.5 pounds and balances well, although it is HEAVY. This rifle is an older one with the heavy contour barrel. The muzzle is threaded, but there is no muzzle brake anymore, just a cap. Overall the gun looks very nice cosmetically.

I cannot see anything wrong with the lugs or action. Both lugs are nice and shiny and seem to be bearing evenly. The no go gage doesn't go and the go does. As I said the guy isn't too thrilled about letting me take it to a smith. He says it is "because he doesn't trust any of smiths around these parts". He isn't asking too aweful much for the gun. He wants less than a new CZ550 goes for. I shot it also, and everything seems fine. We were shooting a "light load" of 94 grains of IMR3031 and a 400 grain Hornady. It did not kick all that bad either. Brass looked fine after firing it had not stretched more than .002".

Could the gun really be in too bad a shape not to buy it? I am thinking real hard about buying it and having it turned into a 470NE No2 by BCA. If I did that would it really matter if the lugs had been set back?

Thanks,
Casey

Ray,
Look on page 33 of the latest Brownells catalog. You will see:

"Tubb Remington 700 Recoil Lug"

"Oversized Tapered Lug Doubles Bedding Lug Area-Increases Strength."

Similar lugs by Shilen, Holland, and Patriot Arms are also offered. I am sure you knew this but just had a sometimers episode, and paraphrased me badly!.

Casey,
Sounds like that gun does have a Tubb-style primary action lug added on. And another barrel lug in addition to the Ruger forearm recoil plate?
I do not understand how the gun can have all three. Adding the Tubb lug would block the recoil plate from cinching down on the 45 degree angled front action screw in the original setup.


Is there a barrel band sling base beyond the forend, or is this on the forearm?

The first run of the oldest fat barrel Ruger Rigby's had the sling swivel base stud on the forearm.

The rifle is obviously restocked with the crossbolt setup you describe.

My rifle is one of the later fat barrel jobs with the sling stud on the barrel, not the stock. It weighs 10.75 #. The rifle in question has heavy wood and/or extra hardware. Is the muzzle diameter 0.810".

Still unanswered: Why in the heck is IMR 3031 being used? 94 grains instead of "over 100" is still too hot for the Rigby with 400 grain bullets, IMHO.

Just curious -- since discovering lug setback in one of my Mauser actions, could you use a U-shaped 'feeler' to detect a step-off in the lug recesses with the barrel installed (like looking for incipient case head separation)? What say the older experienced hands? You might try this idea Casey, if you're suspected they set back the barrel and re-chambered to correct headspace in this gun.

The whole thing had me a little freaked out -- had I not pulled the barrel from my action to grind off the charger hump easier, I would never have suspected it.

Todd

Casey,
I must have misunderstood, because you are calling a Tubb type recoil LUG (an improved Remington 700 "washer" type recoil lug) a "recoil plate."

Actually the recoil plate in the Ruger is in the forearm, and ties the barrel recoil lug function and front action screw together, and serves as the only recoil lug in the whole rifle.

So you must be saying the gun has had the forearm recoil plate discarded and is using a primary recoil lug like the Tubb, and a barrel lug as the secondary recoil lug.

The factory forearm recoil plate has been discarded then, eh?

how about 110+ gr. of Imr-3031 in the .475 A&m M agnum,, known as the load used in the P.O ackleys load book ?Could this be done ?