Does anyone know if Winchester is going to expand their current model 70 line to include the big bores any time soon?

I talked to a fellow at Winchester a week ago. He said that the Columbia, SC plant was unable to meet the demand for much anything right now but Model 70 Featherweights. Whether or not the guy knows of what he speaks, I don't know.

I guess if they wanted too they could gear up for them Big Bores.

What I wish they would do is make a .416 WSM (2300 fps w/400 gr bullet) in an 7.5 lb. rifle with a Featherweight style stock (with a bit more drop for irons) and NECG sights and barrel band swivel.

I'll bet that Will would buy one?

+

Something tells me the new Winchester company is not off to a very good start. I have yet to even see one...anywhere. I could be wrong, but your wait for a big bore model 70 might be longer that that of the MRC PH actions. In other words...years. I have a Safari Classic in 375 H&H and wanted one in 416 Remington...but I am not paying upwards of 2 grand for one. Thats why I have a 416 Ruger Alaskan on the way here(I already have one in 375 Ruger.)

Ruger seems to be the only larger gun company with a staff that has functioning brains.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
What I wish they would do is make a .416 WSM (2300 fps w/400 gr bullet) in an 7.5 lb. rifle with a Featherweight style stock (with a bit more drop for irons) and NECG sights and barrel band swivel.

I'll bet that Will would buy one?

I'd buy one! Its already a legit wildcat, and headstamped brass is available from QC, and I see the reamers on several gunsmith websites. There is even load data But, it would be nice to have a factory 416 wsm ....or 411, or 423, or 435 or 458 or 470...LOL

Good question. I hope so. Ruger has sure come on strong to fill the void left by Winchester.

Count me in for a .416 wsm

I have seen a few of the new M70's. Almost like the old ones except the grip feels a little fuller. Fit and finish are nice, balance feels good. Have not shot one or even purchased one yet.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott Thimm:
I have seen a few of the new M70's. Almost like the old ones except the grip feels a little fuller. Fit and finish are nice, balance feels good. Have not shot one or even purchased one yet.

I've owned one in .270 for about three months now.....it's a fine rifle for sure.

quote:

What I wish they would do is make a .416 WSM (2300 fps w/400 gr bullet)

Does anyone have cnfirmation of this performance.....it just does not seem possible.

The 416 Ruger I built uses a much larger case and does about 2400

I have a .416 Heavy Express Short Magnum that was Jim Busha's test rifle. The cartridge is almost a clone of the .416 WSM and may actually hold about 1 grain less.

I have the test documents that show that velocity. I always loaded mine to about 2250 however and I can vouch that it worked just fine in Africa.

Using some bass-ackwards reasoning, think about it this way: A .416 Taylor and a .300 Win Mag both use the shortened .375 H&H case. The .300 WSM almost duplicates the factory loads for the .300 Win Mag.... so, as the .416 Taylor is to the .300 Win Mag, the .416 WSM is to the .300 WSM...

I have had a Super Grade on order for almost a year and was told by my dealer summer at the absolute earliest.

Reports such as these just make me glad that I bought my LH Safari Classic .375 when I did. I'll never sell it.

Judge/Milehigh

I have in my hands very nearly exactly what you are talking about, 416 B&M. I just use RUM brass, just a touch longer at 2.25 inches, 400s at 2300 fps + Win M70 WSM action, 20 inch barrels, NECG rear sight, NECG barrel band front sights. Depending on stock 7-8 lbs.

Dies available from Hornady, RCBS, load data, brass from Quality, the works.

I have taken one to Africa a few times, along with some of the other B&Ms-it performs as well as any 416. My boys really like them, and in fact gave my oldest Gun #1 built a few years ago for Christmas this year. Currently I have a Super Grade Stainless and a Ultimate Stainless personal guns, and have an Ultimate being built with a 18 inch barrel which should be pretty slick. Light, handy, short, and plenty of power.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
I have a .416 Heavy Express Short Magnum that was Jim Busha's test rifle. The cartridge is almost a clone of the .416 WSM and may actually hold about 1 grain less.

I have the test documents that show that velocity. I always loaded mine to about 2250 however and I can vouch that it worked just fine in Africa.

Using some bass-ackwards reasoning, think about it this way: A .416 Taylor and a .300 Win Mag both use the shortened .375 H&H case. The .300 WSM almost duplicates the factory loads for the .300 Win Mag.... so, as the .416 Taylor is to the .300 Win Mag, the .416 WSM is to the .300 WSM...

Thanks Earnest for the reply.....I never thought of the WSM case as a big bore case.....

I'd like to see "Some" manufacture produce a good bolt action rifle in .450 Marlin.

quote:

Originally posted by DRS:
I'd like to see "Some" manufacture produce a good bolt action rifle in .450 Marlin.

You'll grow old waiting for that to happen. Just buy a .458 Win. Mag. and load it down to .450 Marlin levels.

George

quote:

Originally posted by DRS:
I'd like to see "Some" manufacture produce a good bolt action rifle in .450 Marlin.

Steyr

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

What I wish they would do is make a .416 WSM (2300 fps w/400 gr bullet)

Does anyone have cnfirmation of this performance.....it just does not seem possible.

The 416 Ruger I built uses a much larger case and does about 2400

Vapo - I have an article from an Australian gun rag about many of the WSM wild cats. The listed velocity for the 416wsm is as follows

325gr - 2600
370gr - 2425
400gr - 2380

They list a 416 Rem Mag at 2530 for a 350gr so its not very far behind. The big bore WSM wildcats, as well as others like Michael's B&M series really seem to shine much more then the small bore stuff as compared to existing factory rounds. This is really where the efficiency of the short case comes into play. And in this article, they kept the pressures in check to duplicate or come very, very close to standard factory offerings. They also list a 375 wsm at 2475 for a 300gr, 2150 for a 400gr 404wsm, and 1980 for a 500gr 458. And we know for sure that Michael's 458 B&M and Chris Boon's (is that his correct name, Con?) 458 Alpine which is a blown out and improved wsm case, can and DO go faster. The Alpine has the same powder capactiy as the 458 Win.

The Ruger's and Jeffe's AR series are just more of a good thing. They're very close to the same cases....just a half inch longer. The B&M's split that difference by being directly in between them in length, and honestly I think thats the better proposition. Much easier to take RUM cases and cut them down, less neck sizing involved versus taking a WSM and opening the neck up 6-8 calibers

MileHigh

You mention something that I don't see much when you get past the propaganda of the normal WSMs compared to others. You know how the manufacturers were always on about "efficiency"? I never bought too much in to that, but to be honest I don't shoot much small bore stuff--30s or less. When I started working with the entire B&M series guns with bores of .500--458--416 I never expected to get the velocities I get from these 2.25 inch cases, much less the barrels lengths I work with from 18-20 inches, and be under pressure limits. All far exceeded what I expected and I believe as the bore gets larger from 416--500 the more efficient they get, and therefore the shorter you can go with the barrel. I think Jeffe has experienced the exact same from the AR series of cartridges.

Chris is also getting good results with his Alpine, I had some contact with him a couple of years ago.

I think with any of these cases the bigger the bore the more efficient they get.

Damn, another note, on the 500 MDM I busted the stock once again today with only 4 rounds!!!!!!

Michael

How many rounds total on that monster? LoL

I did some more comparisons today on ammoguide, and between what Chris gets with his 458 Alpine and you with the 458 B&M both with 500gr's I'm starting to get confident that 2150 would be possible using .475 500's. Jeffe gets a bit more, even passing up the 470 NE, but, thats also a bit more powder!

MileHigh

How many rounds on the 500 MDM so Far???

Jesus--18 rounds the first go and the stock busted. Repaired (maybe, we thought) and now 4 more rounds and busted again. Light starter loads too, 550 gr Solids at 2050-2150 fps. I think that the stock is the main issue of course. I have a new Accurate Innovations stock with the aluminum chassis ordered for it. Gun #2 in the series is starting with a AI stock to begin with! One day I will get the data finished. Should be a damn nice cartridge, full length Ultra case .500 diameter--have lot's of well designed .500 bullets already because of the 50 B&M and others, and a new 550 gr Solid too. Just going to take some time with it however because of the stocks!

A 475 B&M is what you talking about???? I am sure you could get 2150 and stay under pressure. At 2150 in the 458 it is churning around 60000 PSI. You could do this in 18 inches too.

I would also look hard at Jeffes 475 AR. Cut the barrel to 20 inches max--2150 easy easy! Pressure probably down in the 50000 PSI or less--not that it matters much to be honest about the pressure between 50-60000.

Michael

IIRC, 2007 Reno SCI (I think it was 07, anyway) convention the Browning rep had what he claimed was a prototype M70 FW in 270 Win,"new production". I asked him about Safari Classics in large calibers and got a blank stare. His eventual response was along the lines of "We're thinking about it". Think about that for a moment. Standing at SCI Reno, kicking large bore bolt rifles out of the way and no thoughts about resuming production of the Safari Classic. Clueless and/or they don't care about that market segment. I walked away shaking my head and headed over to the CZ booth. Draw your own conclusions.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by DRS:
I'd like to see "Some" manufacture produce a good bolt action rifle in .450 Marlin.

Just find yourself a good 2" 458, there are some out there, and presto. Bonus in you don't have to use the cases with the strange belt.

quote:

Originally posted by Head Trauma:
I walked away shaking my head and headed over to the CZ booth. Draw your own conclusions.

Exactly why Winny is probably not looking to get back into the market. In the last few years CZ is really starting to come out in America for the big bore shooters. And the new line up of calibers just goes to show they're doing it, and doing it well.

Michael,

Probably leaning more towards the shorter case. The 470 AR is amazing, it truly is, but more then what I want. It easily exceeds the 470 NE, and the starting loads are about the velocity I'm looking for, however by my estimations on either a B&M or Alpine type case, this speeds can be developed with about 15-20gr's less powder. Less powder-less recoil. That would be on the max end, I also like the idea of using the .475 because you can slow it waaay down and throw in some .475 pistol bullets! Dual purpose!!

But this brings back up the discussion that we've had back over on the WC forum...catting doesn't always have to be about pushing the limits. Just like the 404-375, we set some goals, and aim to achieve them. Bigger and faster isnt always better!

MileHigh

I have a little saying "Velocity is not always your Friend". That goes along with what you are saying, and goes along with a little mission that I embark on next week. I have taken the various .500s out on many missions over the last 3 yrs, and worked with my 416 on a few occasions. However, because of all the shooting I have done in the field with 458 Win and 458 Lott I have neglected my 458 B&M and while I have had some along on past hunts, I never used them. I leave for Russia next week to poke a bear with a stick. I am taking the little 458 B&M. Things will be close, so just the little 18 inch gun and the Ultimate stock at 6.5 lbs will be great medicine. I really like the 400 Woodleigh, but one must watch velocity with this bullet. I can run it at 2350 fps in the little 458, but it over expands, penetration is poor, but it does hit hard up front. Slow this same bullet down to 2150 fps and it hits hard, expands to midway, and penetration increases substantially! Velocity is not always your friend, and in many cases can be detrimental, depending on the bullet and it's terminal performance at various velocities.

Michael

As happens so many times I see in forums and particular threads this thread has taken a turn somewhere back about midway through. I have not addressed the original subject, while being involved in other issues.

I think that Winchester will get back to the big bores, but it will be some time in getting there. The new M70s have just hit the market in the last few months, and only in a few designs, and cartridges. Taking a guess, I would say that it will be between the 3rd year and 5th year before hitting the market with a bore size of 416 or over. I think we might see some surprises at that time too. I would be surprised if they hit the market with the same old same, I think that Winchester will either adopt some other cartridges, or have something new to present. Just hitting the market with the same old same will not get them back in the game again. Just my opinion that is all.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:

quote:

Originally posted by DRS:
I'd like to see "Some" manufacture produce a good bolt action rifle in .450 Marlin.

You'll grow old waiting for that to happen. Just buy a .458 Win. Mag. and load it down to .450 Marlin levels.

George

Steyr SBS

http://www.steyrarms.com/produ...ing-rifles/big-bore/


I saw my first "new" Model 70's at a Gander Mountain the other day, if it wasn't for the bottom metal I wouldn't have noticed.

Fit and finish is nice, the bolt seems a tighter fit in the raceway, trigger is good.

I just seen a "new" Model 70 Featherweight in 270 at Cabelas yesterday. They only had one and it was a nice rifle with slightly better wood than the previous version...but at 899.00 I don't think it was going anywhere fast. Thats about 250.00 more than I would pay for it. Ruger and CZ will stymie any future Winchester success if they are going to list rifles at that price.

agreed, price is too high to be competitive right now. winchester left the game on a sour note, many unhappy customers. i dont think they can just rely on the name alone. show us a great rifle for a good value! with so many other super shootin bargain rifles on the market, mid-high end picks REALLY need to shine. lets hope michael is right and we see some new offerings. do what noone else is doing, show us a 404J, and show it at 1200 or less!

michael -
good luck on that bear! i think the 458 will have its glory on this hunt.

quote:

.416 WSM

.416 JLM (Jamison Litigation Magnum)



I'd rather see a .416 Ruger in a Model 70 Express rifle.

Better yet, sell the actions in the white and we'll build what we want.

They need some volume right now to regain market share so I would think they'll make fast selling/high volume calibers for now. I would also guess that the first big bores will be some sort of Custom Shop item; probably to announce when they open a Custom Shop.

Skinner has it right, sell us the actions, we can take it from there! Well said!

Milehigh, you know me, Winchester M70 or nothing at all. They have to come with something new, or something odd--404 would be a good start. But I think it is going to take a few years. Like tiggertate says, lots of common fast selling calibers now, the 270s-7mms-300s and so forth to get back in. I would not be surprised at all about the first ones being from the Custom Shop when they open. In fact I would go so far as to say all the bigger bores would come from there. Good thinking. If the Custom Shop re-opens however there won't be any $1200 rifles coming out of it--more like $2500 +. At that point I would much rather have my own built.

The 458 B&M will hammer the bear, I am sure of that. I hit a griz with the 50 B&M back in Sept in Alaska, went about 5 steps and could not tote that 470 HP any longer! Of course it was a Win M70 you know!

I did see on the gunbroker where the FW mentioned above was going for anywhere between $789 and $899.

I have enough M70s to last a lifetime so they can do what they want.

Michael

sell us plain actions? SIGN ME UP! Remington, Savage Howa and CZ do it, I think Winchester is missing out. Of course, there is always MRC which is just a M70 clone. Knowing Win they'd probably charge 6-70$ for just an action. Lets all hope the 416 Ruger REALLY takes off, that'll show them they were wrong in thinking the American market is "dead" for cheap big bores. I do hope it isn't a Custom Shop only affair though, for 2500$ I'll get a CZ long before that, and save a lot of money on basically the same rifle.

Michael - I'm right there with ya! M70's for me PF or CRF.

quote:

Originally posted by DRS:
I'd like to see "Some" manufacture produce a good bolt action rifle in .450 Marlin.

Winchester's custom shop actually made this in their short action.....I have no clue as to how many were sold or if any are even available.....but it wouldn't be hard to convert any SA to this round

Sevens ----- In answer to your question, yes, Winchester will make the big bores at a later date. Just my .02 worth. Good shooting.

I think the 416 Ruger will outsell the 416 Rigby and the 416 Rem mag combined.I have 6 416 rem mags but I dont see any one makling 416 Rem mags under $1000 or ammo under $100.In our current ecomic mess the cheapest will win.I hope Winchester and as few others chamber the 416 Ruger.I bought my 416s the Winchester model 70's for $600each ,both the Remington Big Game Rifles for $ 600 and $1000 each for the Stainless Model 700 .You cant buy a 416 Rem mag for under $2300 besides the Remington Custom guns.I think the CZ is the only 416 Rigby besides the Ruger #1.If the 416 Ruger takes hold which it will in Alaska it will sell very good.If the ammo is $80 a box and you can get brass its going to do very good for a big bore.I was hoping that the 416 Rem mag would stay in reasonable priced guns but it has gone to only custom shop guns.I am not selling my 416 rem mags to but a Ruger 416 but I am buying a 416 Ruger as my knock around boat gun.I wont cry as much if I loose it as a Model 70 Winchester.Its going to be interesting what Winchester does with the model 70 that is only chambered in the WSM rounds now.

quote:

Originally posted by dgr416:
I think the 416 Ruger will outsell the 416 Rigby and the 416 Rem mag combined.I have 6 416 rem mags but I dont see any one makling 416 Rem mags under $1000 or ammo under $100.In our current ecomic mess the cheapest will win.

Winchester could bring a .416 based on a WSM case lenthened to 2.5" and put it in their standard action.

Basic brass is being made so ammo shouldn't be overly expensive. And they can play it up as the first new winchester dangerous game cartridge in 50 years.