Hello,
Here is a question for those of you with experience with stuff over 30 caliber. I used to own a 338 win mag, liked it real well, but parted with it a long time ago. I now have a good little Abolt in 22-250, another Abolt in 30-06, and was thinking of rounding out my assortment with a magnum.

I know there are about as many rifles out there as there are guys squeezing the trigger, so hence my dillema. Rifle's purpose will be to hunt Alaska, and hopefully someday Africa. Also, want to challenge myself at longer range target practice. Want to get something with both a generous amount of stopping power and long range accuracy. So tell me what your choice would be within the following criteria.

1)You may have 1 rifle
2)338 or larger up to 458.
3) Production bolt rifle, minor modifications, (stocks, brakes, triggers) are Ok, but your finances preclude a complete custom build
4) Standard caliber (here in USA) preferred or easy wildcat (by that I mean, "Ackley" chamber Ok, A little cartridge cutting and a few size dies Ok, but anything that has to have a case formed by brasing this to that or has to be turned on a lathe, is not a choice.)

Well there you have it,,,let me know, all opinions welcome and thanks in advance.

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Safety & Ethics,Accuracy, Velocity, Energy
Joe M

Model 70 375 in Stainless....Mike

I'd go with Winchester (1st) or Ruger, 375 (my first choice based on your criteria) or 338.

SS or blue, not a big difference to me. If you're planning on spending more than a week at a time in the woods, SS has a slight advantage in that you can be more negligent in their care, but blued guns have been used in the field at least 130 years longer and they hold up too.

Joe

I would choose one of the common .416's out there. I bought a .416 Rem Mag, Sako Humter 75, had it glass bedded and the action slicked. For long range shooting there are better calibers out there, having said that,if you go to the lighter 300, 325,335, 350 gr spitzer type bullets and load them warm, it is a very flat, accurate shooting cartridge out to 500yds, haven't tried it any further. With the 350gr at 400yds you still have the energy of the 180gr 30-06 at the muzzle, so stopping power isn't an issue. Recoil isn't much sharper than my Model 70 .338, it does seem to push more with 400gr bullets, but if your hunting in North America 400gr slugs aren't really nesecary.

....Peter

For what you describe the 338 Win outdistances them all, hands down...Look at the balistic tables for petes sake, the 375 and 458 arn't even in the same ball park...The 375s a great gun but c'mon...I shoot both and have killed Buffalo and plainsgame with both and I see little difference on the black bulls but I can see a world of difference on plainsgame at long range....The 338 Win. is the best "all around" rifle caliber of all in my experience....If I was primarily shooting Buffalo, Lion, Elephant and Hippo I go with a 375, but given my druthers I want something bigger like a 416 and up....I don't believe an "all around" rifle exist..I prefer the right tool for the job..so the 338 for plainsgame and the 416 for big bad stuff....As much as I love the 375 and I have a Holland and Holland, its neither fish nor fowl, but I love it...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I already have it. My Ruger 77 rebarrelled to .375x338 Mag. Does everything the .375 H&H does in a standard length action.
To make brass, run either .338 Win. Mag. brass or .458 Win. Mag. brass through the full length size die, load and shoot. Don't even have to fireform. Accurate. Recoil is less than my Ruger #1 in .375 H&H and it weighs a pound and a half more than the wildcat.
Paul B.

Ray,

Ever used Re 15 in the 375.

2850 with 270 grains. 2650 with 300 grains.

I have never shot that big African stuff but I have shot both the 338 and 375 in Australia and if the 338 is a better long range caliber than the 375 I have never seen it.

With eqivalent loads the 338 at best is no more than 100 f/s quicker than the 375.

Mike

Many recommendations for an all round hunting rifle. But if you seriously thinking about a longe range target rifle, there is no way out of a second one. A .308 Norma Mag is a compromise, but the real winners today are 6mm Norma BR or 6,5-284 up to 1000 meters.

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Mike,
Yes I use RL 15 in my 375 and most big bores..As to caliber disputes, we as gun nuts, deal in thory and paper balistics..The 338 with the same bullet weight has better SD and ballistic coefficient.. thus will have better overall balistics than the 375 and thats plain fact...Is it a substantial amount? I doubt it...But in truth I see no practical difference in any of them, other than stimulating conversation...I can hit a intended target as easy with a a 270 as I can with a 300 RUM under field conditions and the results of that hit are pretty simular..So, based on that I will bow to your post, the 375 is the equal of the 338 or any other caliber from a hunters standpoint.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Might I suggest my own personal favorite, the 338 Lapua Magnum!

Sako TRG-S retails for about $650 (usd)(gunsamerica has one for sale right now at $550)

250 gr at 3000 fps and MOA accuracy right out of the box.

Easy to shoot with a brake, or somewhat painful without

Ammo is kinda hard to find, but easy to handload with lots of good components available...

I have a 416Rem Mag, and I like it.

But it is not a long range rifle. 200-250 yards is the maximum point blank range, depending on the specified kill zone.

The 375H&H is a great all-around cartridge. I think in your shoes I would get a 375 Win M70 Classic Safari Express. If you can find a new one they list for $1100 and usually sell for about $900, last I looked.

Don

I'll stay with my .338 winnie. Its a hard hitter up close, and retains a good punch down range. With the right loads it is more than accurate at long ranges.
For the record mine is a M77 1st gen Blue with a straight 4x leopold in a walnut stock. Yep shes a plan Jane off the rack rifle. She shoots great to!
I've never been to Africa, but my .338 sure makes short work out of elk here in MT.
X-Ring

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Freedom wasn't free. Today they want our guns. What will they want tommorow?

When you say hunting Alaska, and maybe someday Africa, what species do you have in mind? If you exclude dangerous game, I'd say its a toss up between the 338 win mag, and 375 H&H. If you do include the dangerous critters, ie brown bear and cape buff, then its a toss up between the 375 H&H, and the 416, whether Rem or Rigby. In many places in Africa, the 375 is minimum for buff, and for the truly large coastal bears, the 338 is a reasonable minimum. Since things don't always go right, its not always prudent to be using a minimum cartridge. The caveat being, its better to make a solid hit with a minimum, then a gut shot with a cannon you can't control.

Personally, I'm partial to reasonable ranges, and larger bores, so I'd always choose the 375 over the 338. With modern bullets and powders, the 375 is even better then ever, and its always been a good round. It'll push a 270 gr bullet a solid 100 fps faster then the 338 pushes a 250, and if you need more penetratioin, 300's are only leaving the muzzle 100 fps slower then the 338/250's.

The 416 is decidedly a bigger hammer, but, you add notable recoil, and give up a little bit of range on the 338 and 375. Then again, you can load the 325 gr X at reasonable speeds, and flatten out the range, but then you are looking at possibly hunting with two loads, which I highly recomend against, odds are 10 to 1 you have the light load when you need the heavy vs having the heavy when you need the light.

If you want to play the wildcat or proprietary cartridge game, then thats all good and fine, but know that the 375 bullets perform best at H&H velocities, an extra 300 fps will only belt your shoulder harder, and give potentially eratic bullet performance up close. Same deal with 416's, and to some degree, the 338 as well. If you want consistant bullet performance in medium bores, keep the muzzle velocity between 2400 and 2700 fps.

Win Model 70 in 375 H&H.

Blue or stainless, your choice.

For long range shooting, use 260 grain Nosler partitions. You can sight in 1 inch high at 100 yards with 300 grain bullets, and that should put the 260's 3 inches high (depends on your particular gun to an extent).

The 338 would be just a tiny bit better on trajectory, but I will put up with that to get a tiny bit bigger bullet into the air.

JoeM,
I would stay with the Brownings as you obviously like them and are accustomed to them. I would buy the Stainless Stalker in .375 (1st choice) or the .338. They are usually very accurate and I find their feeding and extraction to be as reliable as ANY I have tried, CRF or not.

I have shot all the big stuff with both and I cannot tell any difference in a 9.3x62,a 375 H&H, a 9.3x64 or a 338 Win...on big dangerous game they all perform the same, I do however see a difference when you get to 40 caliber. At standard velocitys...

I can get an honest 3000 FPS with the 210 Nosler in a 338 Win.and it is flatter than the rest and kills like the hammer of Thor. Grain for grain, it has the better SD and BC...thus for all around I'd still take the 338 Win as much as I like the others..

But I will do neither, I'll use the right tool for the job at hand..I will use the 338 or 9.3 for plainsgame and Lion, Leopard and the 416 or larger for Buff and elephant....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

By all means get a .338 Winchester, a .375 H&H, and a .416 Remington. They're all great, all useful, and each one has its place in a proper hunting battery. If you want only one more rifle, make it a .375 H&H. If nothing else, you'll at least meet minimum legal caliber requirements in Africa, and it shoots flat enough for 300 yard shooting if need be. It's also widely available, and resale capability isn't half bad, either.

AD

Joe M: If it were only one rifle, I'd go with a Weatherby Accumark in .338-378. It's 1 in 10 twist will stabilize 300 gr. bullets, it's flatter shooting than the .375 H&H, and it will deliver as much or more downrange energy. The Accumark is as good of a factory rifle as they come. A little minor tuning by any competent gunsmith will make it shoot as good or better than a lot of custom jobs costing 3 times as much. Ammo while expensive, can be had at most any well stocked gunshop. I would choose it hands down over ANY of the other .338 bores. Bill T.

The 416's have really been undersold on this forum when compared to the old 375 H&H, and Nostalgia and propaganda reigns again with the shooting faturnity....

Check out the balistics on a a 416 with a 300 or 350 gr. Barnes X at 300 yds., apparently even the great Finn Aagard made reference to the 416 outclassing his beloved 375 H&H and how he had perhaps changed his mind...

the great 375 is neither fish nor fowl, too big for plainsgame and too little for dangerous game..It is the most overrated caliber in the history of firearms! I have one and I won't sell it. I was without one once and I could not sleep nights until I replaced it...but I don't kid myself about its reverence.....well maybe a little, but I know better...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,

I don't think the 375 is overrated, it has always worked well, has an enviable track record, and is a standard round, in every sense of the word.

I will also agree to the superiority of the 416's, which also share a proven record. The problem with the 416's is there isn't a standard 416, there are two darn many flavors, when one std 416 is needed, and I doubt there will ever be a std 416. As far as the light bullet capabilities, yes and no. I don't believe in carrying multiple loads in the field. If I were to hunt Africa w/o the need of a DGR, I don't think I'd tote the 416 with light bullets. Conversley, if I'm after buff and plains game, I don't want both 300 and 400 gr loads, I'd only carry the 400's, and have a lighter rifle for plains game.

Practicality can be a bitch, and have many faces. That said, I would have little hesitation using a 325 gr X in a 416 against moose, and wouldn't feel it inadequate if tasked with dispatching a bear, though would load 350's if specifially hunting bears. I would also much rather tote a 416 then a 375 against bear, and have been hearing lots of ancedotal comments that the 416 far outclasses the 375 against bears. Dangerous game is dangerous game, and you never have too much when things go awry.

Personally, I don't have a 375, and feel that my 35 whelen ackley will do everything I'd do with a 375, which could also be done with a 338, or a 9.3. If I need more then the whelen, then I'd also need more then a 375.

Lets face it, medium bores are medium bores, whether 338 or 375, or anywhere in between and pushing 250 or 300 grs or anywhere in between. There is only so much killing that much lead can do, and if you need more, you need a bunch more, not a little bit more. The 375 just happens to be the world standard, and I don't think that will ever change.

Ray,

This may surprise you but John S will confirm I have sid it to him, but I think the 375 H&H is possibly one of the most overrated calibers of all.

I have owned over 50 different 375 rifles. Also had them in bench rest configuration.

The whole idea that they shoot different laods to the same point and will shoot "any old load" is not true. It is usually the calibers with bigger cases for the bore size that are more likely to do this.

Of course the 375 has in common with the 416s and 45s a lot of accuracy testing that tends to be on rocks and trees. Alos, all three with blunt bullets cut big holes in the paper and groops look better than they are.

Also, without Re 15, most powders are either too fast or too slow for the 375, especially with long spitzer bullets.

What the 375 does do in my opinion (and better than anything else) is to a provide a better combination of pizzaz, tardition, history and practicality than any other caliber. I guess the 300 H&H and 404 Jeffrey would be next on the list.

I suspect for most people killing power on big game won't mean much as the number of animals shot is far to small. I sure that as buffalo shooter you will have times when the 338 has worked better than the 500. Of course over a large number of animals that won't be the case.

Based on my experience and observation, I think the 375 does better on small game than the 338 (which is the largest amount of game either or any caliber will shoot). I think the 375 does better than the 338 because of a much stronger tendency for shooters to use round nose bullets in it.

Mike

I haven't a clue about stopping power but would suggest that what you do get is fun to use and in a familiar format ie stick to an A bolt

Then if things do go hairy whatever calibre you get you will be able to fire because you will know the rifle! No load in the world will kill until it's fired and hits.

As an example I won the UK express rifle association shoot with my 9.3x62 which was delivered to me new at the start of the shoot. I zeroed it and then got off 6 shots in 29 seconds (loading 2 at a time to be in fair competition with the doubles)dropping 2 points. How? I'm not a particularly good shot but it is identical to the rifle I use every day whereas most others had their special 'African' rifles which get zeroed and used once a year if they're lucky.

Oh and I was using start loads too..... Still I would rather face a dangerous thing with them than the 416 I tried which was so heavy I couldn't shoot it off hand.

[This message has been edited by 1894 (edited 05-24-2001).]

[This message has been edited by 1894 (edited 05-24-2001).]

I thought he said "ONLY ONE RIFLE" for North America, and Africa. If I read right the only chambering that would cover both ends of those rules, and be >>>LEGAL<<< in all cases, is the old quick silver feeding, flat shooting, and managable recoil, 375 H&H, In a CRF rifle!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>

I haven't had the chance to hunt with it yet, but I just got a Win M70 Safari Classic in .375 H&H.

I had it bedded and some other minor trigger-type smithing done to it. And I have to say that it shoots like a dream.

Whichever caliber you choose, I'd also have to recomend the M70 action, either pre-64 or one of the classics.

Good luck

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It is not enough to fight for natural land and the west; it is even more important to enjoy it. While you can. While it's still there. So get out there and hunt and fish and mess around with your friends...Enjoy yourselves, keep your brain in your head and your head firmly attached to the body, the body active and alive, and I promise you this much: I promise you this one sweet victory over our enemies, over those deskbound men with their hearts in a safe-deposit box and their eyes hypnotized by desk calculators. I promise you this: you will outlive the bastards.

- Edward Abbey

Joe,
Well until you said "Africa", it would have been easy. 338 Win all the way. With premium bullets, no problem for Alaskan coastal bears. Providing you practice and can shoot it well. Then you had to say "maybe Africa", and didn't really elaborate as to what game you would be after. Hmm. That can make a huge difference in the tool required to do the job. How sure are you on Africa?

I have and love my .338 win. I have absolutely FLATTENED elk with mine at 350 paces. Granted it was a cow elk, but it was also a running shot(the cow was running, not me,LOL). I would not hesitate to use it on ANY north american game. Period.

That said. If I was going to Africa, and I only could manage 1 rifle (TRAGIC!), it would not be my .338, unless I was positivley NOT going after anything with teeth and claws, or buff. But then, why go there if your not hunting those too. A .375 would serve you well in Africa in all cases, with the exception of buffs. I think a .375 is marginal for buff (my opinion only, and I cringe at typing it, due to some past forum traffic). If I had a choice, and I do, I would carry something that starts with a 4. There are many suitable 4's out there. Several are "standard" calibers that can be bought or handloaded without much special treatments.

However, what the heck do you do with a 4xx the rest of the time, you can use it in N. america, but it is definately more than required, also heavy to carry that excess power. In this case the .375 is a better tool. You can get good use on elk, moose, bear, etc. The guns are lighter. The .375 really smacks 'em down with authority too. It's recoil is quite manageable, and I think (my opinion), it has plenty of down range poop to drop anything here (US) out to 400yds. Is that long range enough? Serious question, not rhetorical or sarcastic, how long is long range to you?

The .375 is more widely suited to all around, with Africa in the mix. Just stay away from buffs with it. My cent and a half's worth.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BigBores:
Joe,
Well until you said "Africa", it would have been easy. 338 Win all the way. With premium bullets, no problem for Alaskan coastal bears.
The .375 is more widely suited to all around, with Africa in the mix. Just stay away from buffs with it. My cent and a half's worth.

---

Joe, you knew it was coming didn't you?
The cape buffalo is my favorite animal in the whole world, but he only stands a bit higher than the Coastal Brown Bear,on my list! Haveing said that, I will say I have shot some Buffalo, and some were shot with 4s and larger, but most were shot with, you guessed it, the little 375 H&H with a 300 gr bullet at 2500 fps. In fact the "ONLY" one shot kills I have on Cape buffalo have been with the 375 H&H with 300gr Nosler Partitions. All others no matter what they were shot with took three or more to put them down. The list includes 375 H&H, 450/400 3", 500/450 NE, 450 NE 3 1/4", 458 RCBS, 500/465NE and not one of them killed a buffalo any deader than my litle 375 H&H FN Mauser! All that asside, the 338 Win Mag would be the one to limit it to anything short of buffalo, and as long as things were right, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a cape Buffalo with a 338 Win Mag with good solids!
The fact is, as you say if one wants to cover the low end, as well as the top boys like buffalo, and Elephant, the 375 H&H is the only answer!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>

If Africa is in the menu, 375 H&H or your particular choice of 416...

And if you hunt in Africa, first get near the animals and then walk or crawl even nearer to them...

Antonio

Good Lord guys, I don't even consider the 375 H&H a big bore anymore. It's what I take out for those long shots on elk, but not for stuff that bites back!

OK, that was meant to razz some 375 fans. I like the cartridge, but isn't a 375 on buff a bit like a .243 on deer - enough to get the job done, but kinda light?

[This message has been edited by 500grains (edited 06-09-2001).]

Hello,
Another rookie question, having followed this thread for a while now. It seems that the 416 cals are more popular than the 45 cals. Am I correct? I have read some bad things about the 458 Win, seems a lot of the guys on the board, if they have one, screw off the barrel and ream it out to some wildcat variation (Lott, etc). And maybe this is just my perception, but nobody ever talks about the big Wby mags like 375, 378, 460.

One more rookie question. Was thinking about my Africa plans, and the game I want to pursue. I keep reading that the 375 is the minimum legal African rifle. By this do you mean the minimum BIG FIVE legal weapon? Because the more I think about the critters I want from Africa, the more I think that this is WAY too much. Seems like a leopard would drop dead as a stone from my trusty 30-06. As for hyena and jackal, would a 22-250 full house load not suffice? I can not imagine them having a tremendous amount of body mass, a little more than an average coyote, perhaps?. It would seem that any of these animals shot with anything that said "Magnum" on the headstamp would just disintegrate. So what gives with the caliber laws? Do you use reduced loads? Sabots?

I only ask because it has been just recently that I have been bitten by the Africa bug, I have never been, and really want to go.
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Safety & Ethics,Accuracy, Velocity, Energy
Joe M

[This message has been edited by JoeM (edited 06-09-2001).]

Joe. The requirement that a rifle be of .375 caliber or higher is basically for the Big Five, as I understand it. To make it even more confusing, from what I understand, not all African countries have this law. You just might have to pack two rifles.
Don't feel alone though. As soon as I can scrape up the wherewithall (money) I plan on going there myself. Even if I have to pack two rifles. LOL
Paul B.

JoeM,
A .30-06 would be a better gun for the hyena. Not the .22-250. Hyena's are big, ugly, tough hermaphrodites, which have killed a lot of people in Africa, and bitten the faces off of some survivors of their nocturnal prowling in the villages and camps. Lions pay close attention to hyenas and sometimes surrender their prey to a pack of hyenas if they don't have backup themselves.

I believe the title of Ruark's book "Use Enough Gun" derived partly from his experience with shooting a hyena with a .220 Swift; he hit it well with the first shot, and then another, and another, and another, and another, and another, and another, and another, and another! It finally died, but Ruark was ashamed of himself and had the guts to tell of it. It certainly helped justified the title, which applied to the big stuff as well. But it also provided mileage for the anti's, like Cleveland Amory who quoted the passage recounting this incident out of context, as if the hunter (Ruark) was enjoying some routine torturing of innocent beasts.

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

I'll opt for the 375 Whelen.
Jim

Just to stir the pot and since it wasn't even mentioned (!), I would suggest the cartridge chambering that I personally did build a rifle to hunt Alaska and Africa with: the .340 Weatherby. [I never say Weatherby Magnum `cause that's redundant!]

The .340 Wby is a better .375 H&H. It will significantly outshoot the old warrior at medium and long ranges with better bullets on the size of big game you are most likely to hunt and it still can throw the big slugs, 275 and 300 grains, faster than a .375 H&H.

The only trouble and its a big problem is the legality if you want to hunt things like buffalo. A lot of places will give you some slack with leopard and Boddington recently shot a buffalo somewhere with a .338 RUM, but maybe they make exceptions for celebrities and maybe he's a certified PH, I dunno. [I think Ray is right about the .375 H&H, its all things and none.]

But if you want to hunt everything else in Africa and all the biggest game on this continent and demand long range performance then this is the winner hands down in my book. If dangerous game is definitely on the list and you absolutely cannot have another rifle then I grudgingly propose a .375 Wby. No, not a .378 Wby, but the original and superior .375 Wby, which is almost as good as the .340 but complies with the minimum bore requirement. A better answer is to bring a .340 Wby and a .40+ big bore of your choice.

PS-- Mine is a reworked Remington. If you want CRF you can rechamber a .338 Win Mag Winchester M70 and you're done. Buy .300 Wby bulk brass from Midway and one pass through the sizer will give you .340 Wby cases.

I am not sure where you would find a "generous amount of stopping power" in the medium bores and you already own a 30-06. There is not a spit worth of diff. between the 375 and 338, other then the 338 is more user friendly.
Good lord get a 458 Lott.

I think the Wby calibers are too fast and tear up bullets, the combo or rotational spin at high velocity is bullet destructive....Not popular in Africa.

After 2300 FPS the only thing that increases killing power is the cross section of the bullet...

I see no difference in the 338, 375 or 9.3x62 on Buffalo and Lions, they all kill well with a proper shot...When things go south I want the biggest caliber made that I can shoot from any position, unfortunately thats the 40 cals. ..

the smaller cross section the better penitration as a general rule examp: a 416 will out penitrate a 458, a 375 will out penitrate a 416 perhaps...Most all bigbores have "enough" penitration so it may be a moot question,

Remember that a big cross section such as the 500 Jeffery, 505 Gibbs will turn or stop a charge a lot better than a smaller 458 or 416, although they are all suitable killers.

All these things are worth consideration, Sometimes we get sidetracked on one option such as penitration or velocity or whatever...

I have had wonderfull luck with the 9.3x62, 375 and 338 Win on Buffalo. I still feel a little uneasy with them and am very carefull indeed with that first shot...I much prefer the 416, 404 or larger...

Just some thoughts on the subject, nothing more.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I have thought about this too and here is what I would suggest. I am thinking about doing one of these myself.

Start with a 338 Wincheser Magnum in a Winchester stainless. Later on it can be rebarreled to a 340 Weatherby or a 338 RUM (depending on your preference) in a custom barrel. Put this on a Mcmillan stock, have a nice set of sights installed like the Master Piece from NECG and some Talley mounts. Two scopes would be good--. One, a 1-5 Leupold for the big stuff( moose , bear etc,) and a 3X9 Kahles ( with TDS reticle) for the long shots on deer size animals.
I think this would be a good all rounder because it would be a little lighter in weight than the 375 and the 340 Weatherby is just about 375 ballistics.
Also a good rifle for Alaska and the other wet places you might encounter, with the synthetic stock.
With the irons and 2 scopes you would have 3 sighting systems.
All of this could be done a little at a time. What more could you ask for?

Good hunting,
Terry

If you put all these posts in a blender and stirred them up real good then baked them together, when you openned the oven a 9.3x64 would pop out!!! I,m sure of that!!

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com