fed 215 unless noted, 525 Barnes X, Horneber brass, 24" bbl, .5060-.5065 bore, cerrosafe cast

H4831SC 125 2046 fps (old WinLRM primer)
H4831SC 130 2183
H4831SC 135 2281 lots of recoil

RL 19 115 1987 backer rod,lots of recoil for velocity

A4350 120 2081 velocity not worth the recoil

RL 15 98 2054 rod filler
RL 15 105 2141 rod filler
RL 15 110 2248 rod filler
RL 15 112 2325 rod filler
RL 15 95 2108 5gr polyester stuffing
RL 15 105 2203 5gr poly
RL 15 107 2244 5gr poly
all RL 15 loads had less recoil than the other 3 powders
Kind of fun playing with the new toy. Hornady bullets up next.

quote:

Originally posted by Dan416:
fed 215 unless noted, 525 Barnes X, Horneber brass, 24" bbl, .5060-.5065 bore, cerrosafe cast

H4831SC 125 2046 fps (old WinLRM primer)
H4831SC 130 2183
H4831SC 135 2281 lots of recoil

RL 19 115 1987 backer rod,lots of recoil for velocity

A4350 120 2081 velocity not worth the recoil

RL 15 98 2054 rod filler
RL 15 105 2141 rod filler
RL 15 110 2248 rod filler
RL 15 112 2325 rod filler
RL 15 95 2108 5gr polyester stuffing
RL 15 105 2203 5gr poly
RL 15 107 2244 5gr poly
all RL 15 loads had less recoil than the other 3 powders
Kind of fun playing with the new toy. Hornady bullets up next.

Interesting stuff. Try Varget with a filler, probably start with about 95gn, and work up to around 100gn with the Barnes bullet. I expect it will give you about 2200fps. I would be interested to see what you think of that. Also try the 525gn Woodleigh or Hornady. I usually find the copper bullets get similar velocities to jacketed lead bullets with around 5% less powder.

Your observation regarding RL15 is completely consistent with mine in the big bore calibers. With apologies to those that abhor fillers, I am prepared to live with the fillers in return for a break in the recoil.

There are many ways to mitigate recoil as discussed on this and other forums...using a faster burning powder has always been at the top of the list along with using reducing bullet weight and velocity.

I crunched your numbers for 135 gr H4381 SC and RL-15 through QL and came up with ~105-110 ftlbs recoil for a 10 lb rifle for the 4831 SC at ~103% load density and 3.75" COAL and ~88-90 ftlbs for the RL-15 at ~83% load density.

All this depends on YOUR COAL, I used the default 3.75" length but futzing around with the load length can also change the load density and velocity/pressures.

You might try RL-17...you will add about 5 ftlbs recoil to ~95 ft lbs, go to 86-88% load density, add a bit of velocity and get rid of the filler...118 gr RL-17 gets you 87.5% density, 95 ftlbs, 2346 fs and 6413 ftlbs energy at just below SAAMI pressure limit for the Gibbs. That's roughly a 10 ga magnum goose load in an 8 lb shotgun.

The same amount of WW 760 will give you the same load density but about 50 fs less velocity and a couple lbs less recoil.

It's always been interesting to me when doing load development to maximize potential performance while minimizing all the components parameters.

Luck on your load development.

At the risk of appearing dumb, what is rod filler?

Dogleg: like Mjines showed it is closed cell foam insulation in a rod. It comes in 20 foot lengths and is very convenient: cut to about 1/8"-1/4" longer than the gap between top of powder column and base of bullet. The double rifle forum has lots of dicsussion about it.

Looks like an easy way to go about it.

Thanks NON. That QL looks interesting. MJines: I'd stick my cat, grandmother or shredded money in the case if it gave me more velocity and less recoil. Using fillers doesn't bother me the 505 is not a high round count caliber. I might stick the cat in there anyway he's useless for anything else.

I thought you just filled the case up with IMR 4350 and let the bullet compress it ...

With a 525gn bullet, and a full case of powder you will probably get over 2600fps, and in a 10 lb rifle that will give you around 120 lbs ft of recoil, and 28 fps recoil velocity. That will be interesting!

I remember one guys that have posted here on AR that he got 2640+ fps with a 600 grain bullet with a full Power load from his .505 gibbs... and he did not got any pressure signs with that load

I want a .505 gibbs with a 26-28" barrel... and a hole bunch of new .505 gibbs norma cases

Here is an academic question for all of you with clearer, more logical thinking than me...

With the caveat that I use DACRON fillers now and then, but prefer a 90%+ fill rate, and that I think the backer rod works OK in straight walled cases because it fills the diameter of the case along with the length variance...


"Do you think that the difference in diameters between the case and the backer rod will allow for powder to trickle by the rod, get between the rod and the case wall filling the void and somewhat negate the value of the backer rod over something that expands to completely fill the void between the powder column and the bullet base like Dacron?"

That question popped into my mind the first time I came across using backer rod over expandable Dacron filler thread/discussion.

I've been following the "backer rod" use for some time now and haven't come across any blurbs concerning testing of that hypothesis.

I use fillers of some type in all my "extra" large cases...maybe using some of the 12 and 20 gauge expandable foam pellets might answer that question...I think the 20 gauge foam filler would work perfectly in the 505 G case...Hummmmm...I must try that.

Any comments...????

On thing in thee 505 and pressure...MAP is 39160 psi so I didn't go beyond that other than for academic reasons, and velos ran ~2200-2400 fs depending on the powder within MAP limit's.

Using velocity only and with several powders I could reach 2700 fs, using the 525 gr Barnes, but at pressures getting in to double the MAP limit.

I've been at this game a very long time, blown up several actions both on purpose, as an academic exercise, AND accidently by way of brain phart, with nothing but bruised pride to show for it for being "DUH"...Luckily.

I tend towards conservatism with dangerous things going off close to my head and I won't tell anyone how to do this game so, for me, getting up into the rarified air of velos much over MAP in ANY CARTRTIDGE, is something I don't do....I could never could convince myself the added velo at a higher pressure was worth it and there are many ways to get more velo WITHOUT going beyond MAP.

I also never could understand the economy of destroying or shortening the life a 5 dollar case on a 10 dollar shot at todays prices...I'm WAY TO CHEAP to let that happen

Luck with your endeavor.

NONAGONAGIN - I understand your point re: fillers not sealing the powder to the rear. I do think Dacron polyester does the job because it expands. The backer rod I bought, 5/8" M-D brand, measures about .600". The OD of my 505 brass just behind the shoulder measures about .605, so with wall thickness and compression of the rod between bullet and powder, I think it keeps the powder back.

On another note, I was thinking about trying some Chey-tac brass. If it has thicker walls and head I'm guessing the reduced capacity might help us in the filler/air space dept. I don't need heavy brass to run higher pressure.

That sounds workable...I have no knowledge of backer rod's parameters so it is something to explore...I need to get some to test.

Thanks for that info, I'm guessing the 1/2" material would work in my Rigby based wildcat then.

I haven't played with the Chey-tak cartridge so I can't comment on the cartridge construction other than it has about 25 gr H20 less volume, 150 gr H20 according to Ammo Guide, which might indicate heavier construction and also in the realm of the Rigby case volume. It would reduce volume and indicate that a faster burning powder would work more efficiently, but still require over 100 gr of powder to achieve respectable velos.

I shoot a lot of 535 gr GC Cast Performance bullets(with extra lube) in my 50 cal Rigby that has a case capacity of ~148 gr H20 and velos of 2400-2600 fs are achievable with RL-15 at 100-125 gr levels, 95 to 100% density....WW748, H380, CFE223, BLC-2 all work at the same amounts or slightly more.

No matter what...a case requiring 100-125 plus gr of powder and producing that velocity will have copious amounts of recoil...well over 100 ft lbs even in my 12 lb shooter.

Luck.

Hi Nonanonagin,
I've only tested one powder so far in my 505 Gibbs, being RE22, I use the Powley calculator to get start loads. This weekend just gone, I ran RE22 with the Woodleigh 600gr PPSN from 135gr-145gr, no filler in 2gr increments. I got 2085fps-2530fps in my 24" barrel, COAL is 3.845" with Norma brass and Fed215 primers, temp was around 75ºF. Would you be able to run those numbers in quickload for me please, would like to know what pressure range that max load is.
Also, could you please run a load for RE25 in the same velocity range, I think it will give less pressure with the same velocity.
Recoil was dramatic, but not unbearable. I fired one shot each of RE22 @ 130gr with and without the mercury recoil reducer and a filler, probably not necessary, the difference was staggering. I will not try that again!
I really appreciate all the help I get off this great forum.

Cheers guys.

2530fps with a 600gr is serious horsepower.

I used the default volume of 181 gr H20 which is high I think, as the Jamison cases I have run 175 gr H20...give me YOUR actual case volume and I might get a closer approximation...also the total rifle WEIGHT would help to calculate the recoil....maybe...sometimes NOT knowing makes the medicine go down easier.

RL 22

135 gr, 96% density, 39794 psi/2265 fs/6834 ftlbs, 118 ftlbs recoil for 10 lb rifle.

140 gr, 99.5%, 44558 psi/2354 fs/7384, 127 ftlbs

145 gr, 103%, 49960 psi/2444 fs/7957, 137 ftlbs....~10KPSI above Gibbs MAP.

RL 25

135 gr, 97.5%, 34886 psi/2189 fs/6383, 113

140 gr, 101%, 38936 psi/2278 fs/6911, 122

145 gr, 105%, 43515 psi/2366 fs/7459, 131

That 2530 fs with RL22 might be spurious as QL calculated 150 gr at 56104 psi and 107% density...might be possible tho'...recoil at 148-150 ft and energy at 8552...NOT something I want to poke sage rats with the view of a pleasant mornings plinking...getting wussy in my old age.

416RigbyHunter

Are you going to try to go for max?
What barrel lenght does you rifle have?

2600 fps with a 600 grain bullet... I seriosly feel that I am in love in the old gibbs

OK, my case volume is 182gr H2O, my rifle weighs 11.5lbs as close as I can get with bathroom scales.
I'm not really concerned with the amount of recoil, it doesn't bother me, I take precautions when shooting off the bench. I have to say that I need a longer lead for my chrony, muzzle blast blew it over on a tripod!
I had to put the readout screen on the ground in front of the chrony so I could move it back a few more feet.
Thanks Nonanonagin,
It looks like RE22 & RE25 might just be the ticket I'm looking for. I want around 2350fps with either powder, I'm sure the rifle and brass can handle the pressure.

Sweden dude,
No, I'm not trying for maximum velocity, the bullets won't handle it. As Woodleigh are a local manufacturer and pretty cheap for me, $1.38 each, this is all I will use in this rifle, in fact they're all I use in my big bores. I like how they perform, very good bullets.

Cheers guys.

I fully understand the chrono problem!!!! I just hang the screen on a handle, set the 'pod out 20-25 yds and read it with binoc's or the scope.

With your numbers recoil is lowered quite a bit...

RL-22, 140 grs-98.8%/2347/43967/7338/111
RL-25, 145 grs -104%/2359/42915/7411/114

WW760 at ~127 gr_90% does the same velo at ~48Kpsi and less recoil ~105 if you haven't tried it.

This is about the levels I run my Rigby at with milsurp 650 gr bullets.

No question about the CZ handling he pressure. I would like to see a SAAMI re-evaluation of those older cartridges in light of newer powders and modern steels.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
I fully understand the chrono problem!!!! I just hang the screen on a handle, set the 'pod out 20-25 yds and read it with binoc's or the scope.

With your numbers recoil is lowered quite a bit...

RL-22, 140 grs-98.8%/2347/43967/7338/111
RL-25, 145 grs -104%/2359/42915/7411/114

WW760 at ~127 gr_90% does the same velo at ~48Kpsi and less recoil ~105 if you haven't tried it.

This is about the levels I run my Rigby at with milsurp 650 gr bullets.

No question about the CZ handling he pressure. I would like to see a SAAMI re-evaluation of those older cartridges in light of newer powders and modern steels.

Luck

Thanks, I will try 760, I have a few pounds of that on hand.
I agree, with all th resurgance of these older cartridges, there should be a re-look by SAAMI and the ammo makers as to what pressures they could run.
The 130gr of RE22 was doing 2085fps, not the 135gr load, mixed up my notes, but the chrony set me straight. I think my chrony reads a little fast on bright days, even with the diffusers in place. It read 3477fps for my mates 300 Weatherby with 180gr Partitions yesterday, WOW!! He's going to re-test on another chrony tomorrow.
Anyway, thanks again for all the help! I now have several loads I can test.

Cheers guys.

Chrono's are like reloading manuals...there are many factors that influence the numbers, they don't give absolute velocity figures but are close enough to be useful.

I have an Oehler 33 bought back in the mid 60's and a Beta chrony. I've put one set of screens behind the other, doesn't matter which, and the Beta is always 25-100 fs faster and only the conditions seem to make a difference...battery life and temp the biggest, Sun angle and cloud cover the next.

Once I get an accurate load for the rifles use I just shoot groups at 50-100 yds then 200-400 yds centered on the short distance, then use the actual group drop at the longer distance to calculate actual bullet BC and velo...or not...getting all touchy-feely with this stuff really only works for distances over 400 yds with my small cal varminters or the big cals with pointy bullets in competitive situations. Highly argumentative to say the least.

Luck.

Asking for load data, looking at manuals and old magazine articles revealed the following data. I found lots of data eventually and it helped me get started. I CANNOT vouch for any of it. I am just relaying what I have seen. Plus, check out the AR loading page. It is obvious that many are loading the 505 to some much higher velocity than factory. I hope this saves someone from doing all the searching.

525gr Bullet
IMR 4064: 90-100gr
IMR 4831: 130gr
IMR 4350: 94-105gr
IMR 7828: 120-140gr, A Square 144gr, Barnes 130
Accurate 2200: 90gr
AR2208/Varget: 104gr + filler
AR2209/H4350: 142gr
ADI2213SC/H4831SC: 125-135gr, A Square 138gr
H 1000: 132-139gr Barnes
RL 25: 125-133gr Barnes
RL 22: 125-151gr, A Square 136, Barnes 133
RL 15: 112+filler, AR load page goes 120gr+filler w/570gr bullet

600gr Bullet
IMR 4831: 115-152gr, Ryan Breeding article 152
IMR 4350: 130-140gr
IMR 7828: 100-124gr
RL 15: 120gr+ filler
Big Game: 107gr
H 1000: 130-140gr
ADI2213/H4831: 122-144gr
AR2209/H4350: 130gr

Tested some loads today:
all had 3/4" of 5/8"dia backer rod

Fed215 Acc 2520 105gr 2281-2276fps 525 Barnes
Fed215 IMR 8208 105gr 2277-2237fps "
Fed215 RamstTAC 105gr 2267-2273fps "
OldWin RL15 105gr 2100-2296fps 525HorDGX


Since RL15 is tough to get I wanted to test some powders I have on the shelf. I am pleased with all three. And this is my first go round with the Hornady.