Why did the Jones underlever system fall out of favor? Was it fashion or improvement?

Improvement! Specifically, speed of reloading in the hunting field. The top-lever is heaps faster, and not at all clumsy to operate in a hurry or an emergency! Also, cocking levers or rods actuated by the fall of the barrels were neded to cock the tumblers on hammerless guns, and I suspect that they were difficult to fit past a Jones underlever without overly-weakening the action-bar. I know it was done on a good number of nitro-proved doubles, but the Purdey-style underbolts were clearly a big improvement in this regard.

What Marrakai said is all true, But most were on backaction hammer guns, and were very strong, for the day, even when built lightly for caliber. The bolting lock-up is similar to a BOLT ACTION in it's engagement, but very slow to operate. An under lever that is very well suited to very large bore doubles is the Clip, or snapp lock, or clip/snapp action. It is simply the same internally as the top lever, with a slideing bar, and bite, but offers a lot more leverage. This system works similar to a Ruger No1, but with a shorter throw, and is springloaded. The top lever is THE main type seen today, and is very well designed, and very quick to reload! where you see the snapp actions is on the very heavily recoiling doubles. This avoids the top lever getting into the web of the hand between fore finger and thumb.

I have a Jones lever 58 Berdan carbine/20 ga shot, combination (a Cape Gun) that is a thing of beauty, but again slow!

[ 10-30-2003, 23:08: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

Thanks for the input. I've been mulling my first double and since it won't likely ever leave Texas, I thought I might enjoy an underlever back action BPE as they are priced somewhat better and already worn enough to tromp thru the brush without babying the gun. Speed of reload wouldn't really be a factor unless of course, unless I find my mythical 1000 lb boar, at night, in the moonlight. Is the Searcy underlever an example of a snapp action?

[ 10-31-2003, 00:34: Message edited by: tigertate ]

Tigertate, you are correct, the Searcy under lever is a Snapp action. I believe it is only available on the 577NE, 600NE, and the 700NE! The lever that swings to the side is a "JONES UNDERLEVER"! You will enjoy the old Black powder doubles, they are usually of large bore dimentions, and very satrisfying to play with. About half of the doubles I've owned have been black powder rifles, and about half of those have been caplock muzzleloading doubles. One draw back to them, however, is the special order dies to load them are sometimes $200, or $300, and your case trimmer will not handle the large ones, Presses, as well, will have to be able to handle large diameter dies, for anything bigger than a 500 BPE. Once you're set up you can load just about anything!

A lot of folks miss out because they seem to shun the Black, and M/L Black powder doubles. Some of them are beautifully made, and most are deccorated with engraveing, and most of them have wood to die for! Yet these rifles are about 1/4th the cost of a Nitro proofed cartridge double rifle. For North America, they are just about perfect, being well suited to woods hunting for deer, moose, and black bear, without the high cost of a Nitro proofed rifle!

[ 11-01-2003, 03:26: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

What Mac sez, and remember that many of them have been nitro proofed and some of them are so damn massive that I would shoot modern ammo in them in a heart beat....I used to hunt with a .577 Army/Navy that was an old black powder gun and it weighed 15 plus pounds and the action was massive...I finally sold it to a guy in Boise for $8000. and that was a mistake, but the stock was broke in half at the wrist, and the gun actually belonged to a PH, who called and said he was in a bad way and to get whatever in a hurry.

Mac and Ray have raised a very good point here. The 'light-nitro' loads in a black-powder express rifle are not light at all for domestic hunting, and the .450 cartridges may be just about perfect for deer, bear, and boar in the woods. A 350-grain JSP at 1950 fps cooks up around 3000 ftlbs of muzzle-energy, and the mid-range trajectory with open-sights zeroed at 100 yds is only 1 inch! Furthermore, the pressure with a modern nitro powder is likely to be around 1 1/2 to 2 tons LESS than the original BP load, so shooting appropriate smokeless loads is even kinder to the gun!

The .500 and .577 'light-nitro' cartridges are still quite powerful enough for buffalo, the latter turning up around 4000 ftlbs muzzle energy. The rifles usually weigh a manageable 10 or 11 pounds, as opposed to the full nitro versions at 12 to 15 pounds, and recoil is much less of course.

My preference is for the top-lever hammer gun, I believe they were the most elegant firearms ever produced. Here's a report on a .450 express in my possession, including a hunt with 'light-nitro' loads a few weeks ago.

http://www.hotkey.net.au/~orrs/TolleyStory.htm

....and a .577 Express which has the Jones underlever:

http://www.australianhunting.net/library/oneoftheharderones.html

The Jones underlever may have fallen out of favour with those who used rifles very seriously or professionally, but for those of us who shoot for enjoyment, such things are simply marvellous toys!

Marakai, the old 577 Express is a beautiful rifle, however I couldn't get the pictures of the 450 to come up.

Some of the most treasured double rifles I own are black powder proofed. They are sleepers, and most are well worth the prices they carry!

Nice w/buff and hog!

Thank you everyone. I thought they seemed under appreciated as you have confirmed. I better get mine before they become properly valued.