I am working on a long term project, basically a clone of one of my English rifles. I am thinking of sending the barrelled action to Birmingham to get proofed. I am curious as to what it takes to send one over, how long it takes and costs, and what, besides the actual proof marks do they stamp on the barrel? Do they stamp the caliber markings and load on like my old guns have, or did the maker do that? For instance, one of my 318's has cordite37-250 max.I wonder if the proofhouse stamped that on, or the maker, and since cordite is long gone, what is marked on modern guns ? I realize this can be a long, drawn out procedure, but wonder if anyone here has ever had any experience in getting this done. Thanks.

Lee, why not just send an e-mail to the Birmingham Proof House.

Keith

ps: it just does not seem worth the effoft to me. export paper work import to England paper work, freight, return shipping, etc...

Lee,
Here is a link to the Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof House information page Proof House

From what I glean, they recognize all other CIP members proofs. This page will have information on what would be stamped on your rifle should you submit it for proof.

I am sure you would need to use the services of an Exporter/Importer on both sides of the pond.

Rules of proof are a matter of law. Ie a marking put on a gun, action or barrel to prove that that gun or part of a gun has been subjected to a test of pressure using a specified proof load.

An unintended consequence of this has been that collectors can now after many years age and verify authenticity of old pieces based on these marks and thus verify to some extent value of such a piece.

Largely because over time proof marks were changed as the laws changed.

Currently the UK subscribes to and thus fall under CIP rules of proof and as such will as matter of Law have to comply to the CIP rules in terms of the applicable approved marks, bringing marks of Proof on a gun that it outdated or no longer valid would be fraudulent and as such should be frowned upon by the broader shooting community.

The reason is self evident because it would mean there are makers out there producing new guns, putting "fake" marks and numbers on them and selling them as being the real deal.

Lee,

Actually did that a few years ago. Had a .375 H&H custom done using a Dakota 76 action and a Lilja barrel. Decided the caliber required British proofmarks as a nice touch. Got a gunsmith friend in England to get a temporary firearms license and took the rifle to England. He then took it out of the wood and submitted it to proof. But, he did not insist on stamps on the barrel and so I just got a certificate of proof. Did the whole thing again and that is why you see the script "R" there among the proof marks.

Check with one of the reliable UK dealers/restorers for a quote on this. High end would be Westley Richards in Birmingham and Holland & Holland in London. Board members may be able to recommend someone less expensive in either London or Birmingham. My guy has dropped out of the trade.
Regards,
Tim

Keith, I probably will e-mail them on monday, but being the weekend, I wanted an answer NOW!!! I figured somebody here had done it, sure enough Tim did! Rusty, I looked at the site, but it does not answer my questions about stamped caliber/load markings, just pressure . I looked at a British proofed Whitworth that I have and it had tons per square " and case length along with the NP stamp. Looking at Tims rifle, it would seem that the old style stamping of charge and bullet weight are gone, for obvious reasons with no standard powder. I guess after you get the proof stamps, you can put what you want on it. Alf, I don't get your post, unless you are thinking that I am trying to counterfeit a collector gun, in which case, you need to reread the post. Besides, I don't believe they were stamping the pressure in BAR in the heyday of English gunmaking, so someone would have to be pretty ignorant to confuse modern marks with old.
Tim, about how long did it take to get it done, not counting the stamping snafu? Thanks to all! Lee.

Lee404:

My post is exactly what it is, no more no less

I do not understand why one would proof a modern custom American built gun with British Proofs ? What purpose would that serve ?

In fact in terms of value if I were to have a American gun built by a foremost American gunbuilder why on earth would I spoil a part of American gun culture by defacing it with say European proofs marks or style, the same could be said of having a Ferlach, Brescia or say a gun out of Val Trompia defaced with British proofs or worse fitted with American fittings.

lee...you got of easy on this question. ColoradoMatt asked this same basic question on a post he submitted August 14 of this year and got some very unfriendly remarks....If you want to do it, it is your rifle and your money, so do what you want. I think it looks classy.

The proof marks only certify that the gun is rated.

All the other marks are from the gun maker and indicate what the gun was regulated for.

quote:

Originally posted by congomike:
lee...you got of easy on this question. ColoradoMatt asked this same basic question on a post he submitted August 14 of this year and got some very unfriendly remarks....If you want to do it, it is your rifle and your money, so do what you want. I think it looks classy.

It's a false classy.

quote:

...I do not understand why one would proof a modern custom American built gun with British Proofs ? What purpose would that serve ?

In fact in terms of value if I were to have a American gun built by a foremost American gunbuilder why on earth would I spoil a part of American gun culture by defacing it with say European proofs marks

Many American custom makers[like British makers] use German made mauser actions and deliberately retain receiver stampings as evidence of origin or pedigree.
Why would an American built rifle using a german stamped action,with British proof marks, be considered any more un-American or out of place? ...In fact, most owners pride themselves on the orig. German stampings on their American built custom rigs.
If a guy values a British proof mark, so be it, I dont feel it compromises anything.

Nicely said, Trax!

That old Lend/Lease Colt .45ACP that I have seems to be more valuable just because it has British proof marks on it.

Nothing wrong with what Lee wants!

TRAX:

Absolutely! If the gun is built in the USA on a German Action then by all means retain the action stampings, that is would be proper and correct etiquette because in a hundred years from now someone will be able to decipher the guns pedigree correctly.

But now if that same gun built in the USA with it's German action stampings were to be shipped in a box to the UK, now proofed with and stamped with proofs that are obsolete or say even current ie with the currently approved CIP proofs and then enrgaved by copying say original Rigby or Westley Richards font, then sent back to the USA without ever finding a home in the UK what are we to make of this gun.

Now I know we all have our money and we can do as we please with it, it still does not detract from the fact that it's a false gun culture.

IMO it could be the finest gun ever built by the best of the best in the USA, if that gun were to be defaced by false or improper markings it would be worthless in my book.

It's the same as buying an original old British rifle that has been drilled or tapped for Weaver mounts, right through scripts on the bridge, or worse authorities in a Country like South Africa for instance suddenly requiring licencing rules that demand that Serial numbers be stamped on all the gun parts, ie action and barrel.

Alf,
He isn't trying to falsify anything. He'd just like to have it proofed at the Birmingham Proof House.

Rusty:

Why? What would that do, make it "look cool"
No imo it would not look cool it would detract from the worth of the piece as a genuine American custom gun.

But then I guess if you do not get it you simply do not get it.

It would be like me sending a best original built German Mauser to the USA and have Remington stamp their adress logo all over the barrel ..... because I think it looks cool

I rest my case!

Ok, let me ask this, what if he wants it proofed for his piece of mind (sorry here fellas, not sure what thep roofing does, does it test the safety of a standard load or does it test an overloaded round for safety. in the latter case I would never knowingly submit my own rifle to this, however in the former I can understand)? Are there any American companies that proof rifles that he could send it to? Would that then be more acceptable?

I will say that having seen pictures of some of Alf's personal collection I can understand the fierce defense of things that help collectors evaluate and authenticate pieces. I'm just wondering if the pedigree might not be unimportant to the person in this case.

Also, if a person is having a gun built today, shouldn't they put as much of the information together as they can on it? I know that I have lots of correspondence from my late gunsmith (as valuable to me as the rifle is) on the one I have being built, and take notes whent alking to the current gunsmith/stockmaker that is finishing it. If, heaven forbid, my daughters at some point after my untimely demise (death by Bikini team is my hope) were to liquidate my things, I want them to still get top dollar!

Red

quote:

I am working on a long term project, basically a clone of one of my English rifles. I am thinking of sending the barrelled action to Birmingham to get proofed

Alf this was what the poster wrote, and you put in what you wanted to turn this tread into, now would it be a good idea and go back and copy your posts before you delete them as usual when people dont see it your way.

americans dont have a proof house, so a few of them actually send them to europe for testing for one reason or another.

your reasons might be more sinister than lee's but that is your thing.

best

peter

Alf

What do you think happens when the finest of the USA made guns like
Remington's, Winchester's (sorry if that makes you laugh !!!)
et al get sent for sale in the UK ?

.

quote:

IMO it could be the finest gun ever built by the best of the best in the USA, if that gun were to be defaced by false or improper markings it would be worthless in my book.

Alf,
has BPM increased or decreased the value of this rifle?.... would it fetch more without the bpm?
Win.1873 with British proof marks


Interesting LUGER with Vickers proof marks.
"The Treaty of Versailles forbid the Germans from producing 9mm pistols with barrels 100mm and longer. The Dutch contract was resolved through the Dutch representative of Vickers (Nederlandsch-Engelsche Technische Handel Mastschappij). It has been believed that the guns were actually assembled by DWM (in the white) in Berlin, shipped to Vickers who proofed and finished the guns and then shipped to the Netherlands"



I dont see anything false,deceptive or improper about a firearm having an authentic BPM.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
TRAX:

Absolutely! If the gun is built in the USA on a German Action then by all means retain the action stampings, that is would be proper and correct etiquette because in a hundred years from now someone will be able to decipher the guns pedigree correctly.

But now if that same gun built in the USA with it's German action stampings were to be shipped in a box to the UK, now proofed with and stamped with proofs that are obsolete or say even current ie with the currently approved CIP proofs and then enrgaved by copying say original Rigby or Westley Richards font, then sent back to the USA without ever finding a home in the UK what are we to make of this gun.

Now I know we all have our money and we can do as we please with it, it still does not detract from the fact that it's a false gun culture.

IMO it could be the finest gun ever built by the best of the best in the USA, if that gun were to be defaced by false or improper markings it would be worthless in my book.

It's the same as buying an original old British rifle that has been drilled or tapped for Weaver mounts, right through scripts on the bridge, or worse authorities in a Country like South Africa for instance suddenly requiring licencing rules that demand that Serial numbers be stamped on all the gun parts, ie action and barrel.

Proof marks are only meanless decoration. This is no different than building a replica Corvette 63 split window from a cornucopia of used swap-meet parts and wanting original badges and rims. The VIN and mis-matched engine/trans numbers identifiy it for what is it, just like a serial number identifies a particular rifle as original or not. I could only agree with your perspective if the owner applied to have the serial number changed to one known to be original to a higher value builder.

"false classy"? Does that mean that any non english made gun, with quarter rib, barrel band swivel or drop magazine (all three which seem to be English inventions, if you will) are also false classy? How about any double other than those from English makers?
As for looking cool...same questions as above can be asked. Does engraving look cool? How about leather covered recoil pad? Color case hardened grip cap or other parts of the rifle? How about exhibition grade walnut? Forend tip? Fancy checkering?
What one person thinks looks cool, or is totally false classy, or ugly, etc. others may have the opposite views.
One last comment...if anyone comes across one of those old Colt SAA's that have the English proof marks on them, and think they are useless or false classy, or snobbish, send me a line and I will send you a prepaid shipping label and take if off your hands for you.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
...In fact in terms of value if I were to have a American gun built by a foremost American gunbuilder why on earth would I spoil a part of American gun culture by defacing it with say European proofs marks or style, the same could be said of having a Ferlach, Brescia or say a gun out of Val Trompia defaced with British proofs or worse fitted with American fittings.

http://www.clayshootingusa.com/html/home.asp [articles sept 09]

Purdeys Italian Adventure;

" What was needed –
if a ‘budget’ Purdey was to be
offered – was a fresh approach.
That search ended at the door of
Perugini & Visini, a young boutique
maker formed in 1968 by two
former Perazzi employees,
Vincenzo Perugini and Darko
Visini. P & V had a ready made gun,
already proved in competition by a
long association with Tony Kennedy
of Kennedy Gunmakers in England,
and had grown to around 20
workers, giving them the capacity to
take on the Purdey work.

International Effort

The Purdey Sporter is a genuine
international effort. It is not simple
‘badge engineering’ with the
Purdey name stamped on a stock
Perugini & Visini gun. Purdey’s
designers and CNC specialists
took the P & V action and
substantially reworked it both
cosmetically and mechanically. I
am told there are no fewer than 84
detailed changes in the receiver,
ejectors and lockwork alone.
Purdey makes all these parts in
their London factory and then ship
them to Italy. Perugini & Visini
supply the barrels and fit them to
the monobloc, fit and finish the
stock and do the first stage
engraving by laser. The guns then
return to London for final
assembly and finishing, hand
finishing of the engraving and
proof testing.
The resulting gun is still not
exactly cheap – the quoted list price equates to around $40,000 at
current rates of exchange."

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Rusty:

Why? What would that do, make it "look cool"
No imo it would not look cool it would detract from the worth of the piece as a genuine American custom gun.

But then I guess if you do not get it you simply do not get it.

It would be like me sending a best original built German Mauser to the USA and have Remington stamp their adress logo all over the barrel ..... because I think it looks cool

I rest my case!

Alf,
Apparently the only one here who doesn't get it is you?

It's OK to send a Mauser to England and have it become an H&H. It's OK to send Zavasta actions to England and have them become Whitworths, but it's wrong to send an American made rifle?

Are we afraid a stray linage will damage the pedigree?

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Are we afraid a stray linage will damage the pedigree?

What pedigree ?

Every gun has a story, some short and inconsequential, some long and very interesting, we do not own them, we do however get to take care of them for a period of time.

Part of a gun's story is the style in which it was concieved, most are as distinct and obvious as apples are to oranges.

Style was not something that was haphazard, it came from ideas of men with very distinct taste and thoughts on what a perfect guns should look like, it that very distinction that gave rise to the famous brands of yesteryear, each distinct and very very specific. ( it is still applicable today's modern guns)

This branding of style was hard earned and defended with vigour. The battle honours if you wish of each style in the trade was jealously protected. And I venture it is exactly this that makes guns of that era so valuable today when compared to modern guns.

Each and every gun of that era wore marks proclaiming it's status, some mere marks of proof as dictated to by the law of the day and most also marks of brand. These too were done in a style specific to brand. These marks ( proof and branding) are period specific, ( something that many years after allow owners to research the origens and dating and ultimately a setting of a value )

Now most here may scoff at the notion that these marks have no value or add no value?

Well if they did not why would someone wish to imitate the marks on a gun that was not built by the makers which marked them in that manner originally?

Why would one then copy period specific font or marks of proof if the gun is of a modern rendition?

Further this one has to understand that value comes from the fact that these pieces have finite numbers, there is a first and a last for each brand. The serial number of the gun and the proofs and marks to match make for that guns place in the timeline of history.

Some say yes but English Mausers were German guns that ended up in Britain and were proofed in Britain.... The answer is exactly! That is part of that genre of gun's heritage. It is exactly that what makes them what they are.

What about Mausers, that were actioned in Germany, Finnished and Proofed in the UK and then exported to the USA where Abercrombie and Fitch or the Hoffman Arms campany marketed them complete with USA brand stampings.

That is their story and their heritage, all period correct and worth a whole whack of money just because of that.

Or now if Purdey were to build guns in Italy and ship them to the UK sold as Purdey's that too would be in place because that is the current heritage of that brands origen at this time, though I would venture such a genre of gun would in all likelyhood have a lesser value to an original Purdey, manufactured, fitted and proofed in the UK.

Fact that many guns of yesteryear had their physical origens in Belgium and were sold as English guns at the time complete with English proofs.

However I were to take an original Purdey, ship it to Italy and have CIP stamps put on it, because I thought it cool I bet the gun's value would be greatly diminished. A fine Duane Wiebe or a Searcy sent off to the UK to have Period specific British proofs and branding marks attached would simply be to ghastly to contemplate. It would be neither fish no fowl, bastard children with heritage stripped in the name of "cool"

Or worse take a Parker shotgun, ship it to the UK and have it stamped with old period English proofs and think that would not deface the piece?

Rusty, yes perhaps I do not get it.

But then I take comfort in my thoughts on this when I look around at the sellers of fine old guns and see they too attach the same value to marks, proofs and period specific style when assigning value to there stock.

quote:

A fine Duane Wiebe or a Searcy sent off to the UK to have Period specific British proofs and branding marks attached would simply be to ghastly to contemplate

by "period specific British proofs and branding marks" you mean ilegal obsolete stampings?

quote:

Now most here may scoff at the notion that these marks have no value or add no value?

Most here scoff?, I dont get that impression.

quote:

Why would one then copy period specific font or marks of proof if the gun is of a modern rendition?

I doubt Lee intends to copy period specific font or proof marks. As I understand, he intends the Birmingham proof house to apply current CIP proofmarks to his modern rendition clone.

quote:

However I were to take an original Purdey, ship it to Italy and have CIP stamps put on it

The Purdey already has British proof marks, no need for a second set. Italy and England have reciprical agreement.

quote:

Or worse take a Parker shotgun, ship it to the UK and have it stamped with old period English proofs and think that would not deface the piece?

A British based collector who imports a Parker in his collection, would be required by law to have it CIP proofed only if/when intending to put the firearm to sale, otherwise I believe he is permitted to keep it in his possesion without requiring the regulartory proof marks that were current at time of its importation into the UK.

I've got a lend lease Garand here with British Proof marks on it. How ghastly is that?-Rob

Trax: You are dead right on that but it's going to be proofed with modern CIP marks, not so? not faux English marks of yesteryear to make it look "cool" and surely the Parker would not be marked with font and script found on a period British shottie. Nope that would be Kitch!

Anyway thats my position on what I consider to be the difference between the real deal and well, shall we say the rest

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
However I were to take an original Purdey, ship it to Italy and have CIP stamps put on it, because I thought it cool I bet the gun's value would be greatly diminished.
.

If it was made by Purdey, it would already have proof marks on it so wouldn't need
to be shipped to Italy to have CIP stamps put on it.


Edit
I notice Trax modified his post to say the same thing.


Alf
What do you mean by "faux" English marks of yesteryear ?

End result is, you ship a gun to the UK of ANY make that doesn't have recognised proof marks and it will be proofed and stamped - except in certain circumstances where a certificate can be given for extremely old pieces.

500 N: because there is someone who may think it's "cool"

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
500 N: because there is someone who may think it's "cool"

Not sure about "cool" but uncool is getting your head blown off by backyard gunsmiths doing gunsmithing work on guns (like re chambering 375 2 1/2" DR's to 375 Flanged Magnum) when they are not able to handle it (Cogswell and Harrison DR's).

Yes, I have seen numerous examples in the US.

.

Alf,
US gun makers copying traditional English styles- you consider authentic American gun making culture-heritage?
.. but Americans desiring to have legal authentic British proof marks, you regard as faux/fake?.....

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
American gun making culture-heritage

I would have thought American gun making culture-heritage would be:-

Parker and other shotguns
Lever Actions
Revolvers

quote:

Originally posted by congomike:
"false classy"? Does that mean that any non english made gun, with quarter rib, barrel band swivel or drop magazine (all three which seem to be English inventions, if you will) are also false classy? How about any double other than those from English makers?
As for looking cool...same questions as above can be asked. Does engraving look cool? How about leather covered recoil pad? Color case hardened grip cap or other parts of the rifle? How about exhibition grade walnut? Forend tip? Fancy checkering?
What one person thinks looks cool, or is totally false classy, or ugly, etc. others may have the opposite views.
One last comment...if anyone comes across one of those old Colt SAA's that have the English proof marks on them, and think they are useless or false classy, or snobbish, send me a line and I will send you a prepaid shipping label and take if off your hands for you.

I don't think anybody is questioning the 'breeding' of firearms made up and customised in different countries from components manufactured in another e.g. your Hollands, Rigbys, etc, etc, it is just that the proof marks unique to each country (that has a proofing facility) are the evidence that that the rifle has been inspected, tested and 'stamped' as being safe as manufactured and for use in that country, or export from that country. It is a process that is special to each country for firearms originating from the need to ensure safety in the days of poor, or no quality control of steels etc. Countries such as USA, Australia, New Zealand, etc who have entered the game relatively later in the piece have no need for proofing.

IMO to send a firearm to a country just to have it proof marked and then returned to the country of origin, because it looks classy, is no better than wanting to send your passport to another country to have it stamped just to make it look cool. That is false imitation.

eagle27..I do understand what you are saying, and what I posted was meant to be a bit tongue in cheek, but you can consider it a type of engraving if you will. I have seen Colt firearms that were engraved duplicating an original 1880's vintage gun. I have seen a couple of newly manufactured double rifles that had engraving that was copied off of a 1920's vintage H%H double. It is all a matter of taste of the owner of the gun. If this were done to fake a weapon that is one thing, but if it is done only to please the owner, well then, more power to them.

quote:

It's the same as buying an original old British rifle that has been drilled or tapped for Weaver mounts, right through scripts on the bridge

I'm sorry Tiggertate, I didn't mean to.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Or worse take a Parker shotgun, ship it to the UK and have it stamped with old period English proofs and think that would not deface the piece?

please tell me who you know who do this in england, as it is highly ilegal with a hefty jailterm in the future.

Alf i hear what you say, but that is not what lee asked about, besides what you fear are not legal in the countrys in europe where CIP is ruling, so no need to be afraid of this when going about this the legal way, which is what lee were talking about.

you seem to have some knowlegde about the guns from yesteryears, now please study up on how it is done today, what you fear is just not possible and therefore no need to whine about.

Fraud is allways possible but that will come from crooks who allready are on the side of the law, not from official proof houses.

quote:

It is a process that is special to each country for firearms originating from the need to ensure safety in the days of poor, or no quality control of steels etc. Countries such as USA, Australia, New Zealand, etc who have entered the game relatively later in the piece have no need for proofing

eagle27, belive me the need is still there, i have seen some fantastic stuff coming from a few american and itialien companies, where thankfully it were stopped at the proof house before it went to the costumer.
to deep chambers, no chambers at all allthough it came with a regulation target from the factory. since quality control is sadly lacking in quite a few of the countrys you mention, i think it is great that they still have to be proofed before the public gets the guns in hand.

quote:

posted by dago red:
Ok, let me ask this, what if he wants it proofed for his piece of mind (sorry here fellas, not sure what thep proofing does, does it test the safety of a standard load or does it test an overloaded round for safety. in the latter case I would never knowingly submit my own rifle to this, however in the former I can understandbest

dago its the latter and it is to make sure that the rifle will handle a certain load beyond CIP spec.

best

peter

quote:

..IMO to send a firearm to a country just to have it proof marked and then returned to the country of origin, because it looks classy, is no better than wanting to send your passport to another country to have it stamped just to make it look cool. That is false imitation.

Purdey as part of their bespoke service,will send a firearm to another country to have it engraved to customer specification/satisfaction and then returned.
If someone values/gets satisfaction from having his firearm correctly proofed and stamped, sending it to Britain and back for such, doesnt seem inappropriate.

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
you seem to have some knowlegde about the guns from yesteryears, now please study up on how it is done today, what you fear is just not possible and therefore no need to whine about.

Peter,
Alf is well aware that any stampings that Lee440 intends to have done on his clone,are of the legal current CIP type.
Why he used the example of a Parker being sent to UK for obsolete old period English proof marks, I dont know.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Currently the UK subscribes to and thus fall under CIP rules of proof and as such will as matter of Law have to comply to the CIP rules in terms of the applicable approved marks, bringing marks of Proof on a gun that it outdated or no longer valid would be fraudulent and as such should be frowned upon by the broader shooting community.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Trax: You are dead right on that but it's going to be proofed with modern CIP marks, not so? not faux English marks of yesteryear to make it look "cool" and surely the Parker would not be marked with font and script found on a period British shottie. Nope that would be Kitch!...

Lee seems content to have modern day CIP proofs stamped on his clone,I dont see any intent to deceive or defraud.
Likewise, American custom makers build rifles strongly modelled from British Rifles, without intent to pass them off as being orig. H&H,WR,Rigby,Jeffery,etc.
and if the owner of one of those US creations also desired valid CIP proof marks, IMO its completely acceptable.
Its a respected legitimate firearm industry technical service-with practical merit, so I dont see the negative.

I wonder what number of custom mausers made in the US to date, would pass the BPH CIP test.

And, if for no other reason, a major bonus would be if he ever brought it here to the UK (or anywhere in the CIP agreement) and wanted to sell it, donate it, etc., it would already be proofed!

quote:

That old Lend/Lease Colt .45ACP that I have seems to be more valuable just because it has British proof marks on it.

Here's the view of "a Brit" on all this:

To be legally sold or even displayed for sale in the UK (or other CIP Member States) a gun must have passed Proof.

Passing that Proof can be evidenced by either the stamping of a Proof Mark on the gun OR by a "Certificate of Proof" (with one single "hidden mark" - say under a grip panel on a pistol).

The marks themselves don't increase the value of the weapon, save in allowing it to be legally sold, in any way.

They CAN however decrease the value of certain weapons in certain cases.

This is where the "so-called" (because they ARE NOT) "Lend-Lease" Proof Mark issue arises.

Guns supplied under Lend-Lease were examined and stamped with ACCEPTANCE MARKS WITHIN DAYS OF THEIR ARRIVAL at Enfield by the famous Government Ordnance factory that once stood there.

They were NOT and NEVER were submitted to either London or Birmingham Proof House when originally supplied under Lend-Lease.

So how do we see Lend-Lease guns with London or Birmingham Proof Marks? Such as a Savage No4?

Because this has been done AFTER the gun was sold to one of the big UK arms warehouses (think Interarms, the now defunct Charnwood Ordnance, Michael Long, Intergun, Westley Richards, Etc.), who THEN wished to offer it for sale here in the UK...and as oted above had AT THAT TIME to have it submitted to UK Proof.

So the ONLY marks impressed here in UK on your Lend-Lease gun when it was actually in the Government's ownership will have been ACCEPTANCE MARKS impressed at Enfield Ordnance Factory.

Those London and Birmingham Proof Marks on it will have been stamped on it maybe a FULL FORTY YEARS after it arrived in UK (certainly long after WWII) and with NO QUESTION OF DOUBT AFTER THE UK GOVERNMENT CEASED OWNERSHIP OF IT.

Those London or Birmingham Proof Marks on that Garand or Savage No4 or Colt 1911A1 are NOTHING TO DO WITH LEND LEASE.

They merely show that at some time in its life that gun was imported into (or released from "Government Reserve" in UK) and in order to be offered for sale legally in UK submitted to Proof.

FWIW usually in the 1970s.

So. As to value.

I have to say that here in Europe if offered a Lend-Lease gun with these Proof Marks and one that does not have them but a "Certificate of Proof" and a "hidden" mark the collector will prefer the latter and be happy to pay a premium price for it.

Acceptance Marks as they actually were part of the Lend-Lease history of the gun pose no problem.

Indeed, as I once had, on a Colt 1911A1 Super Match in 38 Super they can INCREASE the value (for collector's of such a thing over a standard Colt 1911A1 Super Match in 38 Super).

As to standard military issue US 45 1911A1 and 1911 pistols the appearance of London and Birmingham Proof Marks decreases the value of the gun as a collector's item.

Why?

Because these were applied when these guns were imported into the UK so have no direct connection with the gun's true history or use.

The ONLY London and Birmingham Proof Marks that may have a lesser effect on lowering the value of a Colt 1911 or 1911A1 might be those applied on such guns imported years ago such as the large number of COMMERCIAL Colt 1911's brought in in early WW1 or such as the late Duke of Hamilton's Colt 1911A1 he acquired in about 1926.

So. In short:

The only TRUE AND CONTEMPORARY marks on any Lend Lease gun will be the Enfield Acceptance Marks applied in the World War on the gun's first unpacking and inspection in UK.

Any London or Birmingham Proof Mark on such a gun was applied long the World War.

Either on offer for sale by a UK concern after purchase from the UK Government years later or on its arrival in UK after having been disposed to a UK concern of by a later owning Government (as Greece did with large amounts of No4s in the 1980s).

Hope it helps!

The same applies, FWIW, to such London or Birmingham Proof Marks on Luger P.08, Walther P.38 pistols too.