Got into a heated discussion with my brother-in-law and father-in-law about SXS double shotgun actions. I know this usn't a shotgun forum, but they use the same types of action for double rifles so I figured that you guys could help me out.

Anyway, my brother-in-law told me that a "Jones underlever" action was the strongest. My
father-in-law, of course, backed him up. Now I said that is BS because if it were so then we would not have the top lever in production today, we would of course have this "Jones underlever".

Now, what started this whole business, is that I am in the market for a good SXS double shotgun. We were watching some program on OLN, in which they were shooting clay pigeons, I did not see if they were shooting trap or skeet. The guy had one of these "Jones underlever" antique shotguns. This caused my brother-in-law to go on about how strong these actions are and that this is what I should be looking for.

First and foremost is the SOB right? If not how can I argue my point, that being the "Purdey" double underbite is better? I am convinced I am right, but I am not the technical guy my brother-in-law is. Seriously, if he is right we would have these "Jones underlever" actions on all of our double guns instead of the Purdey locks...right?

HELP ME PLEASE, this is a matter of personal honor. I need technically precise subject matter, too. Both of my in-laws in this argument own and shoot double rifles, I don't, so they know a thing or two about these guns, and have a significant advantage. Heck if they had not told me that the top lever was a "Purdey underbite" I would not have known that!

Thanks guys,
Casey

Casey, The Jones underlever is a lever, mounted to the underside of the receiver of a break-open gun, extending half way around the trigger guard and ending in a knob the shooter can grasp. When the lever is turned 90 degrees to the right, a pair of tapered, opposing lugs move out of mating bites in the barrel lumps, allowing the barrels to drop open on the hingepin. While not the fastest-opening design for the lockup of a break-open gun, it is arguably the strongest.

So you in-laws are correct!

Axel

Axel lying peice of shit,
Like anything you say will be taken seriously.

You are without a doubt, a liar. After all of that, you still have the balls to continue to post and think that we'll listen... Blaaaaahhhh!

Pretty damm funny.

JAG

Casey dont listen to this guy as his knowledge is only based on what he can find on the net. Nothing more....

Axel POS,
here is more of you stolen info.

http://www.hallowellco.com/jones.htm

Cant even speak for yourself huh...

JAG

JAG - Axel may not know anything about guns, but he sure can cut and paste. Hahahahaha

Mine eyes have seen the Dickweed...and it is Axel.

Jag,
Right. It is "arguably" strong but not "proven" the strongest. The lockup is still a double underbite like the Purdey. It has a bigger, stronger and more cumbersome and slow release lever. That is all.

Pecos45,
Hound that POSseur to hell! Good work!

I would like to suggest that Pecos45 be assigned the task of replying to the POSseur, and nobody else will have to wrestle with that pig. Email any suggestions to Pecos45 if any particularly offensive crap gets dropped by the POSseur on this fine board.

O.K. Pecos?

[ 10-21-2002, 02:40: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

Dag,
Not arguing w/ Hallowell & Co just pointing out another Axel fault, which is a new hobby for ol Pecos and me.

JAG

O.K. JAG, if you can stand the heat, stay in the kitchen. The rest of us will just laugh at the POSseur.

Hey, maybe that is not a kitchen. More like an outhouse. Maybe you guys could spell each other for breathers on the POSseur duties, dropping cherry bombs in the privy where the POSseur lives.

Dag,
I follow ya now. LOL!

*ssssssssssssssssssssssss........Boom!*

JAG

Daggaron, you are WRONG. The Jones underlever is NOT the same as a Purdey! The Purdey locking bars will slip off their respective bites with action deflection. This CANNOT happen with the Jones. The Jones requires a full 90 swing of the underlever to unlock the action. This causes it to be slow and the lever is awkward sticking out like it does. Without a doubt the Jones underlever IS THE STRONGEST side by side locking system!

Feel free to argue with me when you are all grown up.

Axel

Axel, why don't you post a picture of your Jones underlever. Hahahahaha

Hint: I know where you can plagerize a picture of one just like you do all your "facts."

[ 10-21-2002, 03:00: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

FIRE IN THE HOLE! Cherry bomb in the POSseurs one-holer. What a bunch of BS. If the action is deflected by the discharge enough to slip the Purdey underbites then it is way past gone to hades and off face no matter what. The basic mechanism is the same for resisting deflection when the action is locked up, two underbites.

The only way a Jones underlever gun could be as strong as many of the modern doubles on the market now is if Searcy made a re-creation of one of the old weak steel ones.

No one should acquire an antique under lever and think it is going to be strong.

Excuse me while I take off the respirator equipment that was required for this little forray.

I am turning these duties over to JAG and Pecos. GASP!

Axel,
Lying POS!!!

*ssssssssssssssssss.......boom!*

JAG

Dagga - Are you suggesting that maybe their steel alloys back then are not quite up to our potenials today?

I know...let's ask AXHOLE. He and Todd E know everything about action strength!

Pecos45,
Yep. Write POS on some more cherry bombs and drop them in where the POSseur lives. Somebody's gotta do it! You have my gratitude. I bet they have to haul a porta-potty on a trailer to get Axel/Todd E/(etc.) out of the backyard privy at his domicile.

Pecos45 & Daggaron, strength of an action is defined by it's inherit stress levels.

Since both of you gentlemen know so very very much. Why don't YOU answer the gentlemen's question instead of belittle and berate me. I know, why don't you two learned geniuses explain the differences between the Purdey and Jones locking systems. Hint there is a great deal more to it than the relative position of the lever. The location and orientation of the locking bar/bites is SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT. Pecos, since a picture is worth a thousand words you could post that picture you are talking about.

The truth is that both of you Arseholes are trolls. Always have been and always will be. Daggaron doesn't know his arse from a hole in the ground. Even though he has every big bore caliber over .411" in his personal gun collection. What a crock. I will continue to expose you lying piles of dung.

Axel

PS Pecos when can I start calling you by your older posting name. You know what I am talking about. Let me know, please.

AXEL,
LYING POS! How an you continue to argue this point after you clearly just copied the info from a webpage, then when caught, went back to the net to find more info from another webpage to try and save face... To late, idiot.

Rember, your the lying POS here... LOL

JAG
Bring it on Troll

AXEL POS/TROLL,

*sssssssssssssssss....boom!*

JAG
Bring it on Troll

JAG, serious question. How old are you? You seem very immature and lacking of self esteem. This is only a chat room. FYI, Daggaron is WRONG WRONG WRONG! He frequently is WRONG WRONG WRONG. This is due to the fact, that he DOES NOT OWN ALL THE BIG BORE CUST0M RIFLES HE CLAIMS TO. HOW ABOUT IT DAGGARON, POST SOME PICTURES OF YOUR BIG BORE RIFLES. I MEAN BESIDES THE 416 RIGBY M77. ACTUALLY YOU COULD POST PICS OF THAT FOR PAUL H!

Axel

Axel, I dont care about who is right about this, and if you would actully read the posts you will find I dont care about that. I am only following through with exposing your lies. I will continue to expose you at any cost. You are a plagerizing thief and deserve nothing less then a full on ass kickin.

The funniest thing is you really think you know a thing or two. I once gave you some advice, agree to diagree and contribute to the forum, but you had to continue the lies. You have dug your own grave, deal with it.

I find it hillarious that you have the balls to call me imature when you have been lying like a little school boy talking about his first peice of tail. Grow up Troll.

Oh you still havent addressed the xut and paste thing.... accpet say you didnt... LIES LIES LIES!

Hey Axel, POS LIAR!!!!!

*ssssssssssssssssssssssssssss......boom!*

JAG
Come on Troll, is that all you got?

Axel,
You are so full of shit that it is hilarious. I don't need to prove anything to anybody by posting pictures, because I am an honest fellow, unlike you. I may not know everything either, nor do I claim to. But I am what I claim to be. I just don't claim to know all and be all as you do.

I am just playing here, and have nothing to prove, nor any need to post firearms pictures. Paul H wants a picture of a Ruger M77? Sorry I don't have any on digital file or otherwise, except that he can go to my little safari page and see my fat barreled Ruger 77 in 416 Rigby and my "featherweight" Pre-64 M70 375 H&H in Botswana. Just click on the address in my profile.

Besides, I know darn well that Paul H knows what one looks like, because he picked me up at the airport in Anchorage during one of my layovers, and out of kindness took me down to Great Northern Guns, where we both hefted the same Ruger that had been turned into a 505 Gibbs.

Sending another one your way, FIRE IN THE HOLE!!! (roll cherry bomb into the one-holer, down where Axel sits making pies of his own excrement)

/

Weellll doggies! Alf sounds like he knows something about this, and says it so much better than Axel/Todd E/and all the other aliases. I thank you Alf, for teaching me something. Very helpful.

Cheers!

ALF, thanks for the useul info! Very refreshing.

Regards,
JAG

Casey,
I feel compelled to type a bit from the book by Michael McIntosh, The Big-Bore Rifle . I think this will support your opinion. Pp 73-77:

************************************************

"Finding a way to reliably fasten a break-open action was a problem thorny enough with the shotgun, and the greater stresses inherent to rifles made the task more difficult still. The most successful of the early systems-and one that remained a standard feature of the breechloading double rifle for a very long time-came from Henry Jones of Birmingham.

"The original Lefaucheux fastener, a design completed about 1836, comprises a lump of steel soldered underneath the barrels at the breech. A semicircular notch at one end fits a cross-pin in the action barto form the hinge, and a rectangular notch at the other end is the fastening bite, engaged by a pivoting bolt inside the action bar. The action lever lies under the frame, extending forward, and requires only a partial turn clockwise to free the barrels.

"It never was a particularly strong system, barely adequate to withstand the relatively mild pressures of a shotgun, and wear soon loosened it past the point of efficiency. Lefaucheux's theory, however, was correct, even if his application wasn't, and fastening by means of the barrel lump eventually would become a standard approach worldwide.

"Henry Jones, gun and pistol maker of 174 Hockley Street, Birmingham, devised the most important variation on the Lefaucheux principle. Jones filed a T-Shaped notch in the underside of the barrel lump and mounted a double-flanged, cylindrical bolt to the head of the action lever. Both the bolt and the lump are filed at an angle, so that camming action forces the barrels upward when the action is opened and draws them tightly down against the standing breech when it's closed. Jones turned the forward-pointing Lefaucheux action lever back the other way and wrapped it under the trigger guard, which places it in easy reach of a shooter's right hand.

"Jones received a patent for the design on September 7, 1859, but gun makers in Britain, France, Belgium, and Germany copied the system to such an extent that it probably is the most common fastener among all the pinfire guns ever built. It was known by a multitude of names: in England as the "T" or double screw-grip action; in France and Belgium as the fermeture a T ; in Germany as the Englischer T Doppelgriff .

"The system suffered, at least where shotgunners were concerned, in being wholly manual, and even though someone later devised a spring-driven version, the screw-grip action eventually gave way to the snap-action double underbolt that James Purdey patented in May 1863. This change, however, came first to shotguns.

"The screw grip remained useful in rifles for several reasons. Makers were concerned that the snap-actions might not be strong enough, and although the Purdey bolt ultimately proved perfectly adequate, the screw grip probably was better at the time, particularly for the big 8- and 4- bores. Hunters liked the screw grip's silent operation; you can open the rifle, reload, close, and lock it without making any mechanical sound that might alert the game and prompt either a hasty exit or a charge. By the same token, a screw grip has no parts that might malfunction, while a broken spring can put a snap-action out of commision.

"Makers often added extra fasteners to further ensure tight breeching. Many used side-clips, which are small projections that extend out from the the fences and match bevels cut into the barrels at the breech. You sometimes see them on shotguns as well, especially German and Belgian guns. They're meant to prevent any lateral movement of the barrels, but their contribution is more theoretical than real. Such, too, is the case with most of the various rib extensions that also are supposed to keep the barrels from moving side to side under the stress of firing. In fact, the barrel lump itself is sufficient to overcome lateral stress, and a rib extension serves no truly practical purpose unless a bolt of some sort actually engages it.

"The most important exceptions among English rifles are the famous Westley Richards doll's-head and the Greener cross-bolt. In the Richards version, patented in 1862 and revised slightly in 1864, a lug on the top lever bears against the doll's-head. Some Richards shotguns use it as the sole fastener; Richards and a great many other makers have used it in conjunction with the Purdey underbolt to lend maximum strength in rifles.

"Greener's version, patented in 1873, uses a horizontal cross-pin that fits through a hole in the barrel extension-the same principle as the Kersten fastener widely used in Germany. Because it was intended as a third fastener combined with a Purdey bolt, Greener called it the "treble-wedge-fast" system and argued that it was especially important in boxlock guns and rifles because of the boxlock's shorter action bar. For rifles specifically, Greener, never conspicuously modest anyway, simply says: 'There is only one breec-mechanism for double-barreled large-bore and Express rifles, whether hammer or hammerless, and that is the author's treble-wedge-fast cross-bolt action ...' "

"Not all gunmakers were inclined to agree with Mr. Greener, of course, but many clearly believed that a heavy rifle called for some sort of additional fastener."

*************************************************
McIntosh then goes on to describe other third fasteners.

It appears that the Jones lever fastener was valued most for it's silent and reliable operation with no real superiority in strength of fastening the action, especially in the older guns of weaker steel in which it prevailed.

This passage makes a good case for supporting the Searcy design made of steel superior to anything the antique guns ever had, Jones lever or otherwise. It also makes a good case for the Purdey bolting system with a good third fastener as good as or better than the obsolete Jones lever with a third fastener. Progress.

ALF, Daggaron - Did you guys notice how suddenly it got quiet in here?

It seems our like phoney little "expert" Axel just sort of tip toed out of the room without saying goodby. HAHAHAHAHA

Made a fool out of yourself again, Axel?

/

For what it's worth, Jack Lott had an article in an old (seventies?) Gun Digest called "Make Mine a Sidehammer" in which he sings the praises of the Jones underlever. He claims it is stronger than the top lever actions. He also says that the design of the locking makes it less likely that the gun will shoot off the face. The article is still on my bookcase so if anybody desperately needs a copy, I'll fax it. Bob

bobc, you have a private message.

Thanks to everyone WHO actually replied to my question. I think I am right and I may even have my father-in-law won over to my side. This is by itself a massive victory.

Thanks again,
Casey

Thanks y'all for the education.

I second DAG, creat stuff and I learned alot.

THanks
JAG

Learned a lot? All you morons did was reinforce what this moron's brother-in-law said. You achieved this feat not by first hand experience with this locking system, but by reading BOOKS! How very IMPRESSIVE. I learned only how pathetically idiotic you all ARE!

Axel

I wish someone would loan me their Jones underlever or just donate it to me to get some experience with. I sure as heck wouldn't buy one!

I thought I would give you all an update to the family feud. Father-in-law is now neutral, brother-in-law says the Jones is stronger, period and anyone that says anything to the contrary has shit for brains.

While, with some luck, this site has gotten rid of the asshole Axel, I wish I could get rid of my asshole brother-in-law. These two are like cut from the same cloth!

Thanks again to those who helped out. I know I learned something of value here.

Casey