I have the dimensions of Winchester, Sako, and CZ factory magazine boxes (as well I should since there is one of each in the safe).

Does anyone have dimensions for the Sunny Hill and Blackburn long traditional magnum drop box magazines as well as the Blackburn drop box magazine for the Ultra Mag/.404 cartridges?

Width at back, width at shoulder, width at front and box length.

Thank you kindly,

lawndart

I don't have that, but I do have the dimensions from Jim Wisner. He sent a very nice letter saying he was not going to make a .404 Jeffery Mauser bottom metal for me as ordered, due to a change in jobs with the new son, etc. He said his were the original Mauser box dimensions, and I will retrieve them when I get home. IIRC, just over an inch wide at the back inside of box, and just under an inch at the front inside of box, and 3.600" long inside of box. If you missed it, Alf and others have supplied dimensions of boxes and sketches of the profile of the rails here before, and I wonder if a search might still turn it up subsequent to the software changes. If needed, I might be able to dig up a hard copy to fax or mail to you, from the ".404 Jeffery" folder of _The X Files_.

I never did it, but it would be interesting to take a couple of rubberbands and bundle some .404 Jeffery cartridges together and see how that differs from a bundle of 8x57 Mauser and compare the tolerances built into the 8x57 box etc.

Lawndart,

I have a sunny hill large mdl 70 magazine on my bench, I didnt use it, used the facotry 300 ultramag. When I get a chance I will go measure it and post

Lawndart,

The mag box I have is for the large sunny-hill (375 lenghth), can't rememeber the #. It reqires lots of machining to the action. I don't think the large mag box is necessary for a 404. I am using a factory mag (it sits on top of the floor plate, not down in it, but it works and feeds good (four down). I when with the factory because I didn't have to machine my action.

OD L -3.7, w - front 1.058, w -back .82

Thanks guys,
Billy,
That is good news about the factory box. I may go that way, use Williams bottom metal, and have Dennis smooth it all out. Then I can shoot it in the factory stock until I get another piece of wood whittled.
four down is plenty for me if they feed reliably. Any more than that and my attention span is exceeded.

Rip,
I am "challenged" by this new server. I'll probably just page backward. I see interesting posts that way, and see how there isn't a whole lot new under the sun.

lawndart

You can use a .375 box for a 404 and think that your OK, but the fact is you are not, and what will happen is the rounds will pop out from time to time because the stack is too straight...It needs to be in a shorter, wider, stack...A simple way to get the right effect is to tape four rounds togeter in a stack and if they will clear the box then your probably OK, but what ever you do test it throughly for feed and function, test it fast, test it slow and test it with loading ammo while shooting..Hope thats clear...

Lawndart,

I may be wrong, but it you go with the williams bottom metal you may not be able to get 4 down if that's important, it was with me. I would go with some type of dropbox.

I wouldnt change out the bottom metal unless I was going with 4 down dropbox.

Thanks Ray and Billy,

Nothing good comes cheap, or easy, does it?

I guess I'll do this project one step at a time and see where I end up.

lawndart

Some .404 Jeffery box measurements that I have found are listed below. The length is going to be around 3.600" to 3.750" and the depth will depend on drop box or standard.

I think Wisner said his standard would hold four down, and his drop 5.

The narrower front and and the wider rear of the inside box dimensions is all that is of interest, length and depth vary:

Alf's Original .404 Jeffery:
front: 0.937"
rear: 1.016"

Wisner:
front: he never told me
rear: 1.010"

urdubob (said to be an Original M98 Jeffery):
front: 0.885"
rear: 0.946"

Dypveit (German pattern used on BRNO 602):
front: 0.929"
rear: 1.024"

Some other boxes of interest:

My CZ 550 Magnum .416 Rigby box:
front: 0.840"
rear: 1.057"

My M70 RUM box:
front: 0.740"
rear: 0.975"
(It is "windowed" on the front part of the sides, and it works well for .404 Jeffery with the new RUM follower.)

Jim Wisner won't be making one for me.

It seems that the CZ 550 box is a better fit for the .404 Jeffery than it is for the Rigby???

Urdubob and Alf had quite different measures for their original Jeffery rifles. Alf said his box inside length was 3.626". Urdubob didn't say.

If you have a CIP throat for the .404 Jeffery, 3.6" is about all the box you can make use of. COL is less than 3.6".

The CZ box ain't quite right IMO, I had to tinker with mine a bit, filed it out a bit to get a wider stack..but it was a 375 originally.

Dad, Ron,

Thank you both very much.

It's funny. I already have a slicked up CZ in 416 and Sakos in 375 H&H, 375 Wby, and 416 Rem Mag. None of them have ever bobbled, and they all hit right where I point, when I point.

I guess this project is all about learning how to make a proper CRF fit and function.

I am going to build a little training aid that will show how the cartridges stack and fit at the various dimensions mentioned. Will make it out of clear lucite and take pictures. I am covered up with medical and ballistics work right now (I type posts while waiting for barrels to cool), but will get on that in the next month or two.

lawndart

PS What would it take to be a black sheep in this family?

I was under the impression the 550 CZ box in the 416 rigbys and the 375 is the same box, I would have to look but I think the one in my 416 is stamped 375.

I havent feed anything my my mdl 70 404 (factory ultramag box, sunny-hill bottom) but 350 gr woodleighs and havent fooled with very much, but it did seem to feed the really good.

At some point in time I am going to have to lenghten my trigger in my 404 about a qtr inch or so.

I have a Mod70 in 375 and after looking at the literature on what D'Arcy Echols does replacing the standard magazines with the hard stainless of his own production, I wondered if I should replace my magazine.

I got these pics from a friend of mine, magazine is cut away from from an aftermarket one piece hinged floorplate. not sure the brand. But it shows what happens to the magazine of the big bores under recoil with solids in the box. Those dings can later cause the bullet nose to hang up and affect feeding.




I'm not interested in a drop box mag for this, but if I find out that the steel isn't hard enough to hold up I'll replace it anyways to make sure I don't have trouble. Anybody here got a 2001 Safari Express in 375? Noticing dings forming on the mag front wall?

Red
<edited because at 2:30am I forget to put the pics in, oops>

That will happen.
reinforce the front of the magazine with a steel plate soldered on the outside front, or do what I do: after the rifle is fully bedded, go back in and fill the space between the front of the box and the stock with epoxy, so it is fully supported, and the noses of the bullets won't dent it. Don't forget the release agent.

See Ron,

That was the one smart thing I did in my marriage. I remembered the release agent.

I dug out an old article on Mauser magazine box geometry and applied the formula for the .404 Jeffreys cartridge. To whit: multiply the ass end diameter (.545") by the cosine of 30 degrees (.866) and add the product to the diameter, then add another couple thousandths for wiggle room for any sand, dirt or detritus that might find its way into the magazine box. Soooo. (.545" x .866) + .545" + .002" = .472" + .545" + .002" = 1.019"

The first phase of the experiment will be to use the factory metal (reinforced - I will silver solder some steel onto the front of the factory box - glad something useful came out of helping my uncles do plumbing work as a kid). By the end of this excellent adventure I'm sure the only thing original on the rifle will be the serial #.

lawndart

There seems to be two different boxes on the CZ 550 Magnums that I have seen.

One has smooth sides, the other has two pairs of ribs stamped in the box sides to reduce the width of the box. Both are 3.8" long

Lawndart, what is the rest of the project? That formula was also discussed here on the forum at one point by Mr's Burgess and I want to say Wisner, but might be off on that one. Sorry Jim if you weren't in on that and read this.

I know that on his Custom rifles D'Arcy Echols uses custom metal and I think I heard somewhere that those mag boxes which he has made for him are milled out of a solid block of steel. Us normal guys can't do that.

I know this would be a bit difficult maybe, but what about using a sheet, making the bends and then just having one weld, does that make for a strong box?

Red

In the best of all possible worlds, we would have all rifles made with Mauser boxes machined from solid steel by the cosine calculated specifications ... but "say la vee" ... some of us get by with less than the best.

Hey Dago,

Nice pictures, thank you for posting them. I'm doing this project mainly to learn something about these CRF rifles.

First step will be to use the factory 300 Ultra box and follower to see what happens.

Next I will buy a sheet of steel and see if I can bend something resembling a wider box on one of the metal brakes down at the Airframe & Powerplant (A&P) operation down at the airport.

Since my welding skills begin and end with combine and dozer blade repair I will reinforce the box by soldering.

If the box comes out ok I will then have to have a new follower milled by my local gunsmith. I will look up the formula for making those. Basically it goes "not too long, not too short, not too wide, not too narrow".

When that effort gets battered to pieces I will buy a Blackburn box/bottom metal unit and play with it.

About that time I will be working overseas for Uncle Sam, and saving money (kids are all grown and gone, yahoo!). I will then take my other actions and send them to Mr. D'Arcy Echols to make two Legends for me (in olive green, not brown, thank you).

The urban legend (ha, ha) that I have been given to understand is that Mr. Echols at one time had Bob Schneidmiller mill the boxes that D'Arcy had designed from a chunk of steel. Now I understand he has the jigs and makes them himself. That is just hearsay on my part.

Send me an e-mail with your address to
noak@direcway.com

lawndart

Lawndart,
Going overseas for Uncle Sam? Don't leave us hanging like that! Please do tell! Or do you have to kill us if you tell us?

Another magazine box of interest:
Pre-64 M-70 originally for .300 H&H, now my .375 H&H, holds 4 down:
front: 0.835"
rear: 0.999" call it "one inch!"

Ron,

I think I have a sucker, 'er partner coming in to the clinic this fall. We actually broke even the last four months (the population is moving this way from Boise).

I am getting too old for door kicking (although with optic sights on everything these days it is easier); likewise the only F-16 I'll ever fly again takes a couple of quarters and is on the sidewalk in front of K-Mart.

A reserve evac hospital is willing to bring me back in at my old rank (Ltc.) and pay grade (0-5, over twenty). They will send me through the Tropical Medicine course at Bethesda, and if I can find the funding, take an Arabic language course (I can find the funding). As long as I show up for the unit deployments (90 days every two years) and help them do well on all the inspections (I can do eye-wash), I am free to find other deployments. What I hope to do is three 90 day or one 179 day + one 0 day deployments per year. One deployment as an evac hospital doc with the forward element, one as a civil affairs doc (taking care of the local folks), and one doing whatever. Once the clinic gets busy enough to need two docs most of the time I would cut back on the military stuff.

I will keep up with MARS, MedJet, and my major medical policy for those times between rotations. No sense flying all the way back to the US just for 30 days. I can meet my hootie in Dar or the Seychelles, no?

Every duty day counts as a retirement point. If I can get fairly close to twenty years work of points and make O-6 before they kick my ass out for good, well there are worse ways to go.

The main motivation other than the obvious ones is to be able to afford some rifles, to finish my airplane and do a little hunting now and then. That won't happen with my present situation for another ten years.

The only fly in the ointment is that I have to get re-certified in family practice . I let that lapse when they started pushing the anti-gun agenda. Besides, I have better things to spend $1,500.00 dollars on than an all day test. Oh well, small price to pay.

Let's see, (.532" x .866) + .532" + .002" = .995".
They used to know how to make a rifle in New Haven!

lawndart

Lawndart,
Those are some impressive and admirable adventures you have planned. Best of luck to you. Something like that would ease my boredom!

They have begun calling it Family Medicine as of 2005 (American Board of Family Medicine or ABFM, no longer ABFP), trying to sound more respectable than Family Practice or the old General Practice forerunner. I just recertified last July. It was a peice of cake and will be no problem for a wise guy like you.

Thanks for interpreting the box dimensions for me by the cosine rule, you saved me the trouble of doing the math.

D'Arcy mills his boxes from heat-treated stainless steel on a lazer milling machine, and he's the only gunmaker I'm aware of who does. They are so incredibly smooth and well finished that you'd have to see them to believe them. He's really in a class all by himself, especially when it comes to magazine systems and getting a rifle to feed absolutely perfectly.

I have Echols 'Legends' in .375 H&H and .416 Rem. Mag., and those boxes don't get battered at all from recoil, no matter what ammunition you stick in them. Even the magazine boxes on the .458 Lott rifles that Echols builds don't get beat-up or dented at all, even with solids.

He builds them thick, especially up front, and his use of heat-treated stainless steel in their construction is what makes those boxes are nearly indestructable as they are. Even Jeff Cooper, in writing about his custom Hoenig-built .460 G&A, complained about how badly hammered the magazine became from recoil. Hoenig used a special magazine box on that rifle as well, but it was built from regular soft carbon steel.

I get really carried away on anything that has to do with proper feeding because this is one area where I've had serious trouble in the field myself, and it's an area where I've seen a number of expensive custom riflebuilders really fail. Getting a rifle to look pretty is rather easy. Getting it to shoot well is tougher. Getting it to feed 100% all the time is a whole lot tougher yet........

AD

Allen,
That last paragraph is a sho nuff fact for sure. and widespread...and pretty is as pretty does.

quote:

They have begun calling it Family Medicine as of 2005 (American Board of Family Medicine or ABFM, no longer ABFP), trying to sound more respectable than Family Practice or the old General Practice forerunner

Hey Ron,
That's like putting a fancy paint job on a Chevy Cavalier. Even before I let my cert lapse I had the sign painter put "General Practice" on the front window.

quote:

I get really carried away on anything that has to do with proper feeding because this is one area where I've had serious trouble in the field myself, and it's an area where I've seen a number of expensive custom riflebuilders really fail. Getting a rifle to look pretty is rather easy. Getting it to shoot well is tougher. Getting it to feed 100% all the time is a whole lot tougher yet........

Allen,
That pretty well sums it up.

lawndart

lawndart,
I am boycotting the AMA because of their vocal anti-gun stance. The AMA is all political correctness bull hockey. Nothing noble about it.

However, unless you own your own practice in Podunk, USA, you will not work without certification, most places, most situations. AAFP and ABFP now ABFM is a necessity for most of us nowadays. You are living a sheltered existence in Idaho???

Family Practice/Family Medicine is Mickey Mouse? Rounding on thirty patients in the hospital? I don't do OB, except to assist in C-sections (knock wood). I have been a full time ER physician and a USAF Flight Surgeon, with wham bam thank you mam military short courses in each.

The Aerospace Medicine Primary Course: Now that is Mickey Mouse.

Stop bad mouthing my specialty and yours, and get your butt in gear and recertify. It is not a communist thing to do.

I am boycotting the ABFP/ABFM/Whatever because they are the ultimate bunch of communistic, socialistic, nanny-state worshipping, tassled loafer wearing, politically correctitude certified, ineffective, hand waving, hose head losers. Have you read their journal lately? You can find it at Barnes & Noble in the "Dumbed Down Pap" section. There are plenty of hardcore, hard working, bed rock doctors like yourself who are ill served by that organization.

I did full time ER for five years to get the taste of my residency out of my mouth.

I am the only doctor in a county of 7,500 square miles and 12,000 souls. It is 100 miles round trip to the two hospitals that I will send my patients to. Thank God for the hospitalist group in Boise.

I will recert because I have to for the Army. I am, and always will be, a GP. An ATLS, ACLS, FAA AME, Hyperbaric qualified GP.

I ain't bad mouthing your specialty, just your specialty board.

lawndart

PS Aerospace Medicine Primary Course was a great place to get laid. All I remember is Minnie.

Sorry Ron,
Long night in the clinic after a long day.

God bless you for rounding on 30 in the hospital.

Come on out to Idaho.

We need doctors.

Charlie

Lawndart,
I really agree with all that you are saying there. I take the lesser of evils in my situation.
Funny thing the ABFP now ABFM is more pussified than ever, so FM has a nice feminizing ring to it.

Don't make any craters with those F-16's.
I am jealous. My dream was to be a fighter pilot, but I got near sighted in the eighth grade. Say la vee.

Idaho sounds nice. Any place but Kentucky, where the ABFM is Headquartered, in Lexington, Kentucky.

The picture is becoming clearer on this rifle, at least for today.

The action will go off in a couple weeks to get ground, squared, and the bolt lugs and seats will get reground as well (the left one is bearing 80% and the right one 10% at present). The scope bases will get milled to fit as well.

Then off to Dennis Olson for barrel, chambering, rear sight island, safety and trigger tweaking, and the all important attention to the feeding.

I will silver solder the barrel band and front sight on myself. I will use it with the factory bottom metal and magazine box for a year at home. If it is dead nuts reliable, great. If not, then I will get a wider box made and fitted.

lawndart