Hi Guys! I felt it important to report my 3rd Primer Failure within the last month, all from the SAME LOT# of Federal 215 Primers. I have since gone through some, not all, of my Federal 215s and pulled what I had of this Lot# from my shelves and marked them accordingly.

Having shot 50000+, probably a lot more than that, Federal 215s over the last 10 years this is my very first FAILURE of these to ignite. Either I am lucky, or the Federal 215s are extremely good, which I believe the later to be true. Things happen, this is one of them as far as I am concerned, and I will continue to use Federal 215s.

The Lot # is compressed or stamped into the back side of the 100 Pack boxes. Very difficult to read, at least for me. I get this 1X743. Now the first #1 is a little hard to see. What I see 100% for sure is the X7 3. If you have these, DO NOT USE THEM FOR LOADS YOU MIGHT TAKE ON A DG HUNT. Not sure what to do with them? I have identified only about 6 boxes of these left, 600 primers. I just put Paul Truccolos eyes on this and he confirms that it is 1X743. In the beginning I thought the 4 was a 1. Oh well.

Point of fact I had loaded 40 pieces of 500 Nitro for one of my PH buddies and will take those to him at DSC, I suspect with these primers. I am pulled all 40 pieces this morning and loading them with primers from another lot. Just in case!

Just a heads up, but having 3 failures in the same lot #, better safe than sorry.

Michael

Hi Michael,

THANX for that warning !!!
I´m ONLY loading Federal Primers too, mostly 210 and 215 "Glod Medal" once and never had those Problems.
I realy don´t whant to think about what could happen on da DG Hunt it there´s a "klick" intead of a "BANG".......

Best+ HAPPY NEW YEAR

2RECON

Michael
thanks for the heads up, I will check all my lots and see if that number is on any of them.

Michael,

Send the remainder back to Federal with a note explaining the problem. Maybe they can determine the problem and keep it from happening again.

465H&H

How much of a difference if any is there between the Federal GM215m and the Federal 215. Are the GM215m's inspected one time more for flaws that would have picked up michael458's problem?

Michael, I saw "Primer Failure", and I thought you flunked Reading 101 for the 35th time!!! :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
How much of a difference if any is there between the Federal GM215m and the Federal 215. Are the GM215m's inspected one time more for flaws that would have picked up michael458's problem?

I know of one additional process step in the Match product...the primers are gaged for overall height of the assembled cup.
I use Fed 215M and 205M exclusively and haven't had one failure ever...But Winchester primers are another story.

FWIW CCI had a similar but worse problem a few years ago. They released a lot of CCI-35's with cracked cups that would burn through and plasma torch the bolt face of the gun. When this happened a huge amount of gas was blown back into the shooters face, luckily somewhat indirectly and no one was blinded. Extremely scary though! .50 BMG's are built pretty stout and no one was ever injured, but the guns were damaged. This was a very exciting experience was documented by at least 15 shooters at FCSA events over a 2 year period including me and my son. One event blew out the extractor in my sons gun and locked it up tight.
When confronted CCI engaged lawyer mode and claimed the shooters storage of the primers was at fault. Eventually FCSA on our behalf threatened a law suit and CCI decided to come clean and offered to pay all expenses for bolt repairs of the damaged guns. It was also determined this lot of primers was used in military M2 Ball ammo sent to our troops. I've always wondered how many lives may have been lost to a locked up or damaged M2 because of CCI's incompetent QC of their primers. To this day ,I avoid CCI primers like the plague. That company sucks!-Rob

quote:

it is 1X743

Just checked my Federal primers and do not have that lot number.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Michael,

Send the remainder back to Federal with a note explaining the problem. Maybe they can determine the problem and keep it from happening again.

465H&H

Michael - I second this recommendation. I think it is critical to send these to Federal, and demand a reply. Oh, and send them with a return signature required!

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Michael,

Send the remainder back to Federal with a note explaining the problem. Maybe they can determine the problem and keep it from happening again.

465H&H

465HH and Lionhunter,

Yes, you are correct I need to do this for sure and have a talk with Federal. Like I stated I have used nothing in my big bore rifles but Federal 215s for the past 20 yrs total, and if it was a lesser caliber then it was Federal 210s! In small rifle and handguns, again Federals as well. NEVER, Not once, in anything have I had a Federal primer fail. Until this batch in the last month or so. I have probably a few hundred rounds of B&Ms loaded with I suspect this Lot# of primers, which is ok as I don't intend to take these on any hunting trips. But, I am loading some 500 Nitro for a good friend of mine in which I will take to DSC with me and they were primed with these primers. I removed these primers and replaced them with a different Lot# of Federal 215s. These will be used for backup as he is a PH and one cannot have such things happen in that scenario, IF YOU CAN HELP IT!

Zephyr

Well the GM215s are supposed to be a little extra "Quality Control" as I understand. Until a year or so ago I had never used GM215s. But as we recall the Primer Shortage not so long ago, I found 7000 GM215s at my local shop and was amazed to see them! I bought 2000 immediately, but had concerns how this would effect YEARS of data I had with standard Fed 215s. So the next day I loaded several different loads in 3 different cartridges that I had extensive data on and compared the two. There was no difference at all in velocity, nor ES spread averages between them, which pleased me and I got on the phone and made sure I put away the other 5000 of them, and have them here now. But have been a little stingy with them and have been using standard 215s I have in stock.

Back in the day when I was doing a lot of handgun shooting we all had consistent problems with CCI as well, as Rob has mentioned. Those experiences really put an ugly taste in my mouth as well, and I have refused to ever use a CCI primer in anything, much less a Dangerous Game Big bore load.

Yeah, this is a little scary to me. I still have all the faith in Federal, and I am sure this was just maybe some sort of fluke thing, and in the rush of mass production over the last few years and the shortage of production and the mass demand that something like this can happen, even with the best. But what is scary the most is that on every trip I go on for some time I will have that damned bug in my ass about it, and it would not just be Federal, it would be any of them!!!! That primer thing just looks like a tiny finicky little thing to me and seems it would be very easy to screw up somehow! And it is a MAJOR component in the system! It don't work, nothing else works! One good thing is that if it does not work, then it does not cause a malfunction of sorts, you just snatch it out and go again, quickly! But it will leave you short if it happens! Just one of those damned little bugs scratching around to aggravate!

I really do not wish to scare anyone off the Federals, this could happen with anything I suppose. Just wanted to give you guys a heads up and look for that lot # and remove them from serious inventory as I have.

I must find some time to contact Federal and send these, that is the problem for me right now.


Michael

Michael,

Happy New Year! Thanks for the warning!

Allow me to tell you about another primer failure. I was at a Bubba shoot running rounds across the chrony and one of the shots sounded completely different. Recoil tremendous for caliber, report very stacato. Problem was the primer failed to stay in the primer pocket! That little hole the primer was supposed to stay in was egg shaped. It didn't start life like that, but 79gr of AA2460 and 275gr .375 Noncon helped it along. Primers stay in the pockets much better when the load is reduced 2gr.

'Squatch

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
FWIW CCI had a similar but worse problem a few years ago. They released a lot of CCI-35's with cracked cups that would burn through and plasma torch the bolt face of the gun. When this happened a huge amount of gas was blown back into the shooters face, luckily somewhat indirectly and no one was blinded. Extremely scary though! .50 BMG's are built pretty stout and no one was ever injured, but the guns were damaged. This was a very exciting experience was documented by at least 15 shooters at FCSA events over a 2 year period including me and my son. One event blew out the extractor in my sons gun and locked it up tight.
When confronted CCI engaged lawyer mode and claimed the shooters storage of the primers was at fault. Eventually FCSA on our behalf threatened a law suit and CCI decided to come clean and offered to pay all expenses for bolt repairs of the damaged guns. It was also determined this lot of primers was used in military M2 Ball ammo sent to our troops. I've always wondered how many lives may have been lost to a locked up or damaged M2 because of CCI's incompetent QC of their primers. To this day ,I avoid CCI primers like the plague. That company sucks!-Rob

What are you using for your 50BMG primers now?

Well Boys--If you got Federal 215s laying around, check this Lot# as well

2HX663

I suffered yet another primer failure in this lot# this weekend.

This in a 475 B&M--hard hit no doubt about it, it should have gone. I hit it twice and it would not go.

I pulled all my 215s and I still have 2800 of this lot#.

Whatever you do, do not use these two lot#s for loading DG rounds. I suppose load and shoot them up, but not for anything that might get serious!

Use another Lot# for serious stuff!

Before you ask--No I have not contacted Federal about it yet. I did look for a website Saturday, but everyone I went to said it could not be found??? Hmmmm? I don't know?

Another Heads UP!

Crap!
Michael

" not be found " ???

www.federalpremium.com
This web address has been around for a few years , changed from something else.
They need a good hard nosed SOB for a QC man !

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
" not be found " ???

www.federalpremium.com
This web address has been around for a few years , changed from something else.
They need a good hard nosed SOB for a QC man !

A lot of servers were down intentionally to protest SOPA over the weekend. Probably the cause of Michael's experience.

Not to reduce the seriousness of the issue, but how many BILLIONS of primers have been made and used and how many have failed considering that number...the reliability of primers is very high...statistically almost 100%...BUT they are still mechanical/chemical devices made by humans and subject to failure.

There is NO way to know for certain if a priomer will fire if used for DG, hunting, target work or just plain plinking, but checking inside EACH primer cup INDIVIDUALLY WITH a magnifying glass with a good light source, to see if it contains priming compound and it equally fills the cup AND the anvil is in place goes a long way to eliminat primer failure when "in the sh**". Making sure the firing pin isn't gummed up or frozen or has a weak spring is another.

100% inspecting of primers for serious work has always been my practice...it seems strange to me that wouldn't be fundamentally de rigueur for everyone.

Even then "schat" happens...NOTHING IS 100% in this world for certain.

I have some 30-40 year old CCI primers that fail more often than usual and I remove them to see whattheF...when it happens. There has always been primer compound in the cup, so age is probably the cause of the primer not firing...and possibly the fact that those old CCI primers had a very hard cup.

If you have primers of the suspected lots I would inspect them 100%, but NOT use them for the besties that might chew on your leg...but they probably are as good as a new batch for "normal" hunting.

It's YOUR fat's that's in the fire and YOUR choice as always.

Luck

Having experienced a misfire in the hunting field for the first time last month, I am curious as to the circumstances of your primer failure.

In my case, I was shooting my Griffin & Howe Springfield sporter in .30-'06 and aiming at a fairly large doe about 175 yards away across a clearing. When the trigger broke, there was only a thud, and my first thought was that I had failed to chamber a round, but upon raising the bolt handle and withdrawing the bolt slightly, I could see that there had been a round in the chamber. Examination of the primer revealed a very shallow indentation, quite unlike the dents I normally experience in fired primers.

By the time I had completed my examination, the deer were gone.

I had fired this rifle the week before, confirming its zero, and had experienced absolutely no problems. My thought turned to the weather, which was well below freezing, and the possibility of caked grease inside the bolt which might inhibit the firing pin fall.

When I got back to the house, I disassembled the bolt, dipped the firing pin and spring combination into solvent and then pored solvent through the bolt several times, until the solvent turned quite black. I then checked the headspace of the rifle, confirming that the bolt closed on the "GO" gauge and refused to close on the "NO GO" gauge. I then took the rifle back out to hunt.

Unfortunately, no opportunity presented itself to test my "cold weather" theory, and in the meantime I developed a recurring problem with my right eye, resulting in a swelling in the retina, which my retinologist tells me makes me more vulnerable to a detached retina.

As a result, I put up the Springfield and finished the deer season with my old 99 Savage .22 Savage Hi-Power. I did not have another opportunity to shoot, so my retina remained unthreatened.

This is a long lead in to questions, but here they are:

1. What kind of rifle were you attempting to fire the misfiring cartridge in (bolt gun, single shot, double rifle)?

2. How deep was the indentation in the primer?

3. Did you attempt to fire the cartridge a second time?

4. Did you remove the bullet from the cartridge to verify that there was actually powder in the case. (I don't mean to be insulting: this has happened to me more than once in 50+ years of loading.)

Please bear with me, I'm trying to get a clearer picture of what these misfires consisted of.

Thanks,

Bill Warren

I wonder if the Federal website wasn't open was due to the solar event we had Saturday .Hadn't though of that . Tomorrow we will have a very large solar event [Coronal Mass Ejection] predicted to have serious effect on comunications ,a satellites etc.

Bill ,many fail to keep firing pin, spring , and hole clean.But that's only one of many primer problems possible.
I had a box that would produce very high pressure about every twelfth round in my 44 mag.A friend had a box that would ocassionally have enough force to push the bullet into the forcing cone of his revolver but not ignite the powder.
Missing primer, backwards primer and in the case a missing ignition hole !Take your pick !

quote:

This is a long lead in to questions, but here they are:

1. What kind of rifle were you attempting to fire the misfiring cartridge in (bolt gun, single shot, double rifle)?

2. How deep was the indentation in the primer?

3. Did you attempt to fire the cartridge a second time?

4. Did you remove the bullet from the cartridge to verify that there was actually powder in the case. (I don't mean to be insulting: this has happened to me more than once in 50+ years of loading.)

Xausa

No Offense taken.

#1--Winchester M70, relatively new 475 B&M, Winchester M70 9.3 B&M, and a Winchester M70 6.5 WSM, and last but not least, a Winchester M70 458 B&M. This is around 6 or so failures, 5 with the First Lot# mentioned above, 1 with the last Lot# mentioned today. All in the last 6 weeks or so.

#2--Plenty deep, heavy indented, no possible way it could not ignite.

#3--Yes-I even turned the cartridge so it would not hit the same spot exactly.

#4--Was a test load I had just loaded and walked out to the range. Yes, I pulled bullet, powder, and primer out, documented it, then searched all the primers in that Lot# and put them to the side marked in RED. There was no ignition in the primer, primer material still new.

None had any light hits, or I would have never made this post. I investigate things like this rather thorough.

quote:

Not to reduce the seriousness of the issue, but how many BILLIONS of primers have been made and used and how many have failed considering that number...the reliability of primers is very high...statistically almost 100%...BUT they are still mechanical/chemical devices made by humans and subject to failure.

FooBar

This is very correct. And, if it had only been 1 primer failure, you may have never heard of this thread or post. The first one I had was in November, with that same first Lot#. I continued to use that lot number until late December, no issues, then all the sudden I had 3-4 more in that lot#, so I knew something ugly was up with that. Different rifles as well.

Now, only a few weeks later, different rifle and cartridge, another one? Another Lot#. That does begin to be somewhat aggravating to the mind.

The website listed above worked like a charm, I did go over and send a rather lengthy email explaining the issue, so thanks for leaving the link open. Saturday? I have no idea, NO FEDERAL website would open Saturday.



The primer has priming material, they all looked normal in the priming tray, all have material in them? I don't know.

As stated, for so many years and so many 10s of 1000s of Federal Primers, and bunches of 215s shot here over the years and every year from 5000 215s plus, some years double that amount, and NEVER NOT ONCE-NOT EVER had one not ignite! Now in 6 weeks 5-6 of them? Come now? What's with that? I asked the same question of Federal--We see what we see?

Michael

Sheesh, must be a problem with Model 70s......

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Sheesh, must be a problem with Model 70s......

Yeah yeah yeah! You just pissed off because my M70s are smaller and weigh less than those damned old big revolvers you carry!

I've been following this thread from the first...SOMETHING went wrong somewhere along the way...bad QC, a hickup at the wrong time or just plain laws of probability, or Murphy mucking about.

No matter what, it was your time in the barrel and you got caught.

Make certain Federal knows the lot numbers, and post notices in all the forums you can.

It would be interesting to see if this happened to any others and if it was the same lot numbers..

Luck

Oh for sure--When it Rains it Pours! That is very true here at the "Range of Torture"! LOL.....

Sent a long note to Federal the other day, yesterday reply

quote:

Hello,

Thank you for brining this matter to our attention. Do you still have the misfires? If so please ship via UPS to;

FCC
PRODUCT SERVICES
ATTN: T
900 EHLEN DR.
ANOKA, MN 55303

Please package the ammunition into 1 box and package tightly so the contents do not shift. Please write ORM-D on two sides of the box so UPS is aware it is Other Regulated Materials class (D).

Send only primed casings do not send just the primer due to primers being hazardous material. When we receive the ammunition we will examine it to determine the problem.

Thanks
Federal

Standard fare, and ok, but had to explain this was not in primed cases, which I am NOT going to send, and not in loaded ammo. Of course I explained that in the original note to them as well, and yes, gave them both exact lot#s. I also told them that I have the failed primers, and would gladly send to them, and even the entire lot# if they wanted. Waiting on a second reply now.

I only post here, I really don't have time to post other forums. I can barely keep up here with my schedule.

Michael

Nobody is perfect...had a customer who loads exclusively for a high end mil unit in europe. Had 10,000 Federal GM 215 primers that were too deep - and no, not just in one brand of cases. Wouldn't seat in Norma, Winchester, MEN or RWS...so he measured them...all out of spec.

I do know that in 2008 everybody ramped up primer production and quality suffered. I had a 95 Primer 'bang' in my Dillon 650 and called them- Lad on the other end said- yup getting more common- and sent me free replacement parts as per their Waranty (I love Dillon Service!)

I shoot Federal primers in my revolver for competition (kind of light stikes with a 7lb double action pull) but have used the CCI oem Small pistol magnum primers in all my own and club 9mm and .40 reloads for years. The joke is , we buy them direct from PMP (pretoria Metal Pressings) and some will come in PMP boxes and some will come in CCI...Never had a primer failure in years.

Everybody has bad days though. I use CCI LRM for my 9,3 and have twice found primers with no anvils...but I always look at the primers in the Lee primer before I start priming!

Just had a primer failure on a .500 Jeffery...one of the new RWS magnum primers! Have already fired several hundred of them with no problem in a couple of calibers but mostly .500Jeffery and .500NE since they are suposed to be the equivalent of the Fed 216 (not comercialy available super magnum primer)

Ganyana

Yes, it can and does happen, no doubt. Same here, have fired several hundred out of both of those Lot#s of 215 mentioned above without problems. Honestly, the first one a tiny bit disturbing, but just wrote it off after having fired many 10s of 1000s of 215s and never a failure. Then, all the sudden having more in one week from the first Lot#--now really getting disturbed, pulled that entire lot# putting it to the side, and also starting this thread to alert you guys, to this lot#.

I still and will continue to use Federal 215s, and after this last little incident with yet another lot#, maybe with just a little less faith, and a little more concern. I don't see how millions of these can be made without having an issue to be honest, I mean look at the things, ain't much to them to begin with! Regardless of manufacturer.

I am sending the failed primers back to Federal and they intend to investigate why they did not ignite. That's about all we can do or ask for.

Michael