Does anyone know a Mr. Randy Moss in McLean Va.??? He has sevral double rifles I am interested in but will only honor a 3 day inspection and doesn't wnt to send them to Champlins or Westley Richards for evaluation. Wants me to come to his home to evaluate them. I dont know enough about them to make an honest evaluation. I have been looking so long and hare for a 450-400,3" that I may be rushing things a bit. Hoping that someone knows about this guy and can tell me if his above board or not.
lb404

lb404 have him send the rifle to you....then drive it over to Champlins and have J.J. look it over. Then test fire it at Champlins.
I am puzzled as to why Mr. Moss would not want his rifle inspected by a pro, if the rifle is as represented????
The 450/400 3" is a great calibre, what are the details on the rifle?

Be careful!

A vintage double can be a pig in a poke. And if you get a lemon, then you will take a big hit because you can't really sell it without either fixing the problem or passing it on with full warning of the problem.

Can he provide you with a test target and the load info before you send money?

That is the problem. I now livew in the Rio Grande Valley in south Texas and that means a 15 hout trip each way to get JJ to look at the gun. If he sends it to me, It may be impossible to get it evaluated in enough time to return the thing if it is bad. I really want one badly but this seems a little risky.
A. Hollis 450-400, 3", 26" barrels with moon sight, one standing-two folding with a tangent sight. the rib has been dovetailed for a claw mount scope arrangement==now missing. Full scroll engraving with 20% case coloring. The stock is full figured with a cheek piece and silvers pad. He rates it at very good over all condition with good bores.
Edmonson-Green 450-400,3, 26" barrels, one standing two folding sights.moon front sight bordewr engraved action with 40% case colors, standard pistol grip stock no cheekpiece, plain wood silvers pad.
$8500.00 each. I just don't feel comfortable with this deal. He doesn't like the people at Champlins for some reason!
What do you think??????????
lb404

When it comes to flying a plane or dealing with guns the thing that i ALWAYS think is "when in doubt ,dont" this has saved me many times. There is a reason a red flag is up.

Rusty and 400 Nitro can advise you on the Hollis.
Are you sure the other rifle is not an Edwinson Green and Sons? I have one of those in 450 No2 and I really like it. But each double rifle even form the same individual can be totally different.
I would never buy a double rifle without handling and shooting it. I would advise you to take a trip to VA. and "lay hands" on the rifle.
I would also take some factory ammo [Superior] in soft and solid. It is well worth the time, trouble, and money to find the right double rifle.
I guarentee it.
Does this guy have a web site?

That is the problem. I now livew in the Rio Grande Valley in south Texas and that means a 15 hout trip each way to get JJ to look at the gun. If he sends it to me, It may be impossible to get it evaluated in enough time to return the thing if it is bad. I really want one badly but this seems a little risky.
A. Hollis 450-400, 3", 26" barrels with moon sight, one standing-two folding with a tangent sight. the rib has been dovetailed for a claw mount scope arrangement==now missing. Full scroll engraving with 20% case coloring. The stock is full figured with a cheek piece and silvers pad. He rates it at very good over all condition with good bores.
Edmonson-Green 450-400,3, 26" barrels, one standing two folding sights.moon front sight bordewr engraved action with 40% case colors, standard pistol grip stock no cheekpiece, plain wood silvers pad.
$8500.00 each. I just don't feel comfortable with this deal. He doesn't like the people at Champlins for some reason!
What do you think??????????
lb404

I can see both sides of this problem, I would not let someone be sending my double to anyone else and tieing it up for who knows how long...

A 3 day inspection is the accepted sale on any rifle, as per gunlist, Shotgun News and on the internet...

There are a lot of tire kickers out there that order several guns at a time and take the best one and others that play all sorts of games....

Surly there is a qualified person somewhere in the Rio Grande Valley that can check out a double rifle, if not then I suggest you send him the money for the gun, let him send it to JJ and let JJ take a 3 day inspection...or let JJ buy the gun for you if it passes inspection...

Lb,
If he just won't send it to JJ, the send it to Jack Belk or David Yale.

IB404

A lot of people don't trust Champlins for one reason or another. Some dealers don't trust other dealers to honestly evaluate their product because they also have a rifle to sell.

I'm with Ray, there must be a gun dealer in your area that can tell if a rifle is seriously flawed or not and you can shoot it yourself with the recommended loads, (either factory or supplied with the rifle) to see if it shoots.

If you are hinky about the dealer, than pass. Don't get emotional until after you buy it.

lb404, Give Rusty, or 400 Nitro, a ring, and make a deal with one or both of them to inspect your rifle. They are both in the Houston area, and have access to a shooting range, as well as being owners of Hollis 450/400NE 3" rifles, and will have loaded ammo they will most likely let you buy from them, to shoot the rifle some!

400 Nitro is one of the most knowledgeable people I know where double rifles in general, or Hollis rifle in particular are concearned. Houston is only 2 hours from you, and both guys are OK, and will gladly help you, unless I miss my guess!

The three day inspection is a normal state of of the trade, and he will have to send it to a dealer, and that will cost you about $25 to $50+ shipping. I would do it myself, but I'm 500 miles from you, and Champlin's is 1000 miles from you. Houston is your best bet.

The fact that a smith works on rifles, does not make him the person to ask about double rifles. There is one rule you must live by, if you are a double rifle shooter,and that is, KNOW THE GUY WHO HANDLES YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE!

[ 02-10-2003, 17:49: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

N E 450#2
It was a Edwinson Green rifle. They both sound good to me by description. Like Ray said the standard for the trade is a three day inspection. I have requested and received extensions on unusual guns. I think that double rifles need a little more time to evaluate. This gentleman was willing to have me fly out to his home to see the guns in person. With my lack of experience, I probably would not know a good one from a bad one.
lb404

[ 02-10-2003, 18:04: Message edited by: lb404 ]

Caveat emptor, my friend.

Doesn't Cherry's in NC or Chadick's in TX offer inspection & appraisal services of double rifles? $8500 is a lot of money to risk on a rifle that may require service.

My understanding of the premise of a three-day inspection period is that if you fire the gun, you cannot return it (the seller has no control over what ammunition you use).

George

When I sell a gun, I give a 5 day inspection and the seller can fire the gun, if he blows it up he owns it of course...I have no way of knowing if they fire the gun or not.

I guarentee the gun as described....In some cases buyers do not listen to the description and then when they get the gun they send it back because the didn't like it, but mostly because they changed their mind in the interim..You just as well give them the money back and mark it down as one of those things..

I had one guy send a gun back after owning it for 8 months..Got a lawyer even...I could have won the case but it would cost me more than the gun was worth and I would not have gotten the gun back...It was settled because my lawyer, a real gun nut, looked at the rifle and said, Damn, I'll take it for that price...He sent the buyer a check and didn't charge me a fee..

This sort of thing happens all the time and that is why some gun dealers get very callous I suspect. The bad apples ruin it for all of us.

lb404 Arrange the following: Fly to VA with 40 rounds of soft nose, 20 rounds of solids. Shoot both rifles. Select the one you like best, take it on a 3 day inspection. Fly to Champlin's, have J.J. inspect the rifle, fly home, make decision to buy or send back.
Both the Hollis and the Edwinson Green are good brands, I would pick the one that fit me the best [assuming the "looks" and the shooting of the rifle is OK].
Shoot both rifles at 25 yards, and at 50 yards. Shoot off hand and with a standing rest. Conventional bench rest techniques are not proper for a double.
One test you can do is to remove the bbls from the action, suspend by the lugs with a string and tap the bbls with a piece of wood, [lightly]. The bbls should ring like a bell.

lb404 Has Mr. Moss shot/hunted with either of these rifles, or is he just a dealer?

I have sold Bill Moss guns before.
You forgot to ask me.

1) Don't be in a hurry. A new one will always come along (Did you see any of the dbls at Westley?) Part of the thrill is the chase!

2) I thought that a english-trained dbl gunsmith was in the hill country. You may want to ask on gunshop.com or the shootingsportsman.com sites.

Hopefully I'll still see you at the Big show in Tulsa!

The English-trained gunsmith referred to is probably Kirk Merrington. I have had him do trigger work on fine shotguns and he does very good work. He is located in Kerrville.

However, according to his website www.kirkmerrington.com he primarily works on shotguns. You might give him a call to see if he'll look over a rifle.

I know Kirk. He has done work for me also. He is a shotgun man. He really wouldn't be much help in evaluating a double rifle, FWIW.