Nice write upon the 505 Gibbs by Doctari here - the cow test is entertaining to say the least:

http://www.bigbore.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27&Itemid=34

Excellent! Thanks PeterV.

Hilarious indeed:
"How was it possible for a grown man and a ruddy great Beast of a rifle, just to shoot a pathetic, blind and about to die of old age cow -- to miss and start a veld fire instead?"

And this with the first shot Kevin ever fire from the .505. That is starting off with a "bang."



I see they have the brass cartridge drawing properly spec'ed to CIP standards.



And the beast with 15.3" (390mm) LOP:



Some interesting load data and eyebrow-raising chronograph data there too.

Here is a picture of Kevin shooting his 505 at one of our shoots - he does shoot it very well!

The big guy makes that 15.3" LOP look small.

And he succeeded in knocking himself unconscious by placing the butt over his solar plexus while waiting for the hangfire to go off?

The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

I for one like the barrel band sling base close to the forend tip, and a longer forend than applied by those Britishers.

I once had a hangfire on a .505 Gibbs too. The guy that had loaded the ammo was rather scared of the whole thing, and the cases were only half-full with powder. I lowered it just enough to have it disappearing under my right arm and landed in the grass some 20 feet behind me. How I managed to not break any fingers is a wonder.
I loaded it up to 2500 with a 600 grains bullet and it worked just beautiful.
NOT my recomended load for a fast backup shot, though......

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
I once had a hangfire on a .505 Gibbs too ... I lowered it just enough to have it disappearing under my right arm and landed in the grass some 20 feet behind me. How I managed to not break any fingers is a wonder.

I am glad for your fingers, Bent. No fingers broken, only bent fingers, luckily.
Hopefully the flying rifle had a soft landing in the grass too. It deserves a better owner than the loader of that ammo.

Hangfire Drill: FREEZE!

The Ryan Breeding load for 2500 fps with .505/600-gr bullets in the Gibbs:

144.0 grains of H4831
Said to be "Max in a GMA action."

Guys, I just gotta ask.... What was wrong with the original ballistics, a 525 grain bullet at 2300 fps?

Dave

Original ballistics were probably 2150 fps with the 525-grainer, according to Doctari.

A lot of "Hype-pie" was served up back in the old days too.

nothing at all; except 600 grains at 2100 make more sense for softpoints.
But I do have a question: why all the interest in the 500 Mbogo, various 585's, etc? All recoil too much to get a second shot off expeditiously, and I SERIOUSLY doubt that 1 in 10 of the guys posting about them are accurate with them while hunting.
But then theres the "fun factor"! Why do i shoot hot 505's? because its fun to see other people's reaction when the thing goes off: i would swear the earth shakes, and a yard of flame follows the bullet
besides, we all know its the flame that kills, not the bullet! (

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Guys, I just gotta ask.... What was wrong with the original ballistics, a 525 grain bullet at 2300 fps?

Dave

Seriously, i havent yet found a load that I could handle with the 505 which showed the LEAST pressure signs (I use Horneber brass). And I have obtained 2600 with 600 gr woodleigh softs in both the CZ and the Fred Wells P17 based action. (I wont give the load) At that velocity, it appears that torque is more of a hindrance to rifle control than the actual recoil. has anyone else noticed the same phenomenon?
NOT a hunting load by any means. Especially with WOODLEIGHS, which I find to be best at 2100 or so- more penetration.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
I once had a hangfire on a .505 Gibbs too ... I lowered it just enough to have it disappearing under my right arm and landed in the grass some 20 feet behind me. How I managed to not break any fingers is a wonder.

I am glad for your fingers, Bent. No fingers broken, only bent fingers, luckily.
Hopefully the flying rifle had a soft landing in the grass too. It deserves a better owner than the loader of that ammo.

Hangfire Drill: FREEZE!

The Ryan Breeding load for 2500 fps with .505/600-gr bullets in the Gibbs:

144.0 grains of H4831
Said to be "Max in a GMA action."

quote:

Originally posted by Indlovu:

nothing at all; except 600 grains at 2100 make more sense for softpoints.

Apparently George Gibbs didn't think so

But we know better

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Indlovu:

nothing at all; except 600 grains at 2100 make more sense for softpoints.

Apparently George Gibbs didn't think so

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Guys, I just gotta ask.... What was wrong with the original ballistics, a 525 grain bullet at 2300 fps?

Dave

Nothing...

But the 505 has plenty of boiler room...

If you can handle the recoil why not use it?

Matt V.

quote:

Originally posted by trophyhunter5000:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Guys, I just gotta ask.... What was wrong with the original ballistics, a 525 grain bullet at 2300 fps?

Dave

Nothing...

But the 505 has plenty of boiler room...

If you can handle the recoil why not use it?

Matt V.

Matt, I think recoil IS the problem!

My friend had a .505 and we shot it at the range quite a bit. I didn't think it was bad to shoot with the 525 grain bullets but I thought the 570 and 600 grain bullets increased the recoil appreciably! I think the .505 would be a stunning killer with the 525 grain bullet. It would certainly be adequate for any buffalo that walked the face of the earth. On an elephant hunt, I might consider the heavier bullets but would be quite comfortable to use a 525 grain Woodleigh solid in that role too. After all, one of the most popular elephant guns was a .404 Jeffery and a 525 grain solid out of a .505 hits with way more authority than the old .404. My god, Indlovu is talking about shooting 600 grain bullets at 2600 fps! That's like a .505 on crack.

Dave

my testing last summer showed a "better way"...a 650gr bullet about 2280fps The heavier bullets seem to flatten out the recoil a bit. Slows the recoil impulse/speed IMHO. Got some ammunition loaded up for my CZ, and going out and retest my theory on some rampaging boulders. One charged a tractor&haywagon out at the ranch Saturday afternoon.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
my testing last summer showed a "better way"...a 650gr bullet about 2280fps The heavier bullets seem to flatten out the recoil a bit. Slows the recoil impulse/speed IMHO. Got some ammunition loaded up for my CZ, and going out and retest my theory on some rampaging boulders. One charged a tractor&haywagon out at the ranch Saturday afternoon.

Rich
DRSS

Rich, load up some 525's, take them along and shoot them back-to-back. I would be interested to see if you note a difference in recoil.

Dave

For the good of the interested parties here, I am willing to test five of each, one and one twice, and then a magazine full (3) as a finale.

Just 'cuz I are a goodfella!! Or got sucked in by Dave!

Rich
DRSS

quote:

My god, Indlovu is talking about shooting 600 grain bullets at 2600 fps! That's like a .505 on crack.

You are quite right, david, it is not my idea of a hunting load. In fact, 600 gr @ 2100 is the most i can accurately handle in a hunting situation. The recoil from this load to me is very similar to the 525 gr @ 2350 or the 500 gr GSC solid @ 2400 fps, my preferred solid load.

I have a fairly modest physique, yet I have learnt to handle the recoil of the above loads. I suspect bigger, stronger guys can learn to handle higher levels of recoil. The point Im making is, the case capacity of the 505 puts it in a class of its own ballistics-wise among the various 500's, with no pressure signs

Why choose a 600 @ 2100 vs 525 @ 2350? Sectional density; besides, Woodleigh softs reach full expansion slower at slower velocities, another reason for increased penetration

Ive checked this out, but I have to admit, in sand. Once i figure out how to post pics, I will post one of the 525 and the 600 at above velocities. Sands not perfect, but thats what i had at my range.

Indlovu:

A 600 grain bullet at the more modest velocity of 2100-2150 fps does indeed make a lot of sense. That pretty much duplicates the .500 NE. A slow, heavy bullet like that would penetrate like crazy....good elephant/hippo medicine.

Dave

That's a really good article. I've seen him using that bolt rifle before, but I never knew anything about it. I might've been a little more cautious when touching off ammo that old, but thankfully there was no (serious) harm done. The Gibbs is definitely one of the big boys that can be made incredibly powerful with modern components. You've gotta respect a cartridge that dwarfs the 460 Weatherby!

I have the goal of 650gr or so at 2200-2300fps for a working load. 475gr at about the same velocity for speed drills. Give me a couple more days to get rolling, my other 505 Gibbs came yesterday.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by PeterV:
Here is a picture of Kevin shooting his 505 at one of our shoots - he does shoot it very well!

I tried Kevin's .505 Gibbs in October last year,i and my family visited the Robertson family while they lived at Buffels Hoek, Prieston. e fired a bunch of old Kynoch and Gibbs ammunition, with some missfires!
A cartridge collector would have cried...


Kevin "Doctari" Robertson at Skansen Stockholm, January 2006, trying to get a good shot at a Visent bull (European Buffalo)

That story was priceless. It's too good not to be true.

Thanks for posting that guys.

That put a little light into my life tonight!

I just got one of "those" lectures from the ole ball and chain, I uh..mean my lovely bride. About not buying a very nice little 9.3X74R and how I already have a double and .458 Lott and .375H&H and a .404Jeff and no ability to budget and why do I NEED another rifle and don't ride the four wheeler without a helmet bla bla bla bla bla......

You got a love em!

surestrike,
Your doctor wife and Doctari's wife: nag, nag, nag.
The only thing that changes is the scenery.

be happy, my "Sturm Und Drang" thinks I should trade my Kawi 650 in on an automatic transmission Geo Tracker so she and her friends can cruise together instead of each on their own 4-wheeler.
Figure that one out. I told her to just buy herself one...she says she can't, she's saving HER MONEY for a new Saturn 2-seater roadster.

Rich
DRSS

Car Torture! Rich do ya'll have some crazed desire to drive those funky "shit-boxes" as we call them down here?!!? Get her a G55 and then she can follow your carcass down the trails and blow the doors off some cheesy Miata wanna-be too plus she can take her gal pals along and bring you huntin' boys some spiced rum and sandwhiches too - all the while watchin' sat. TV in surround with their little butts on fine Austrian Cow Hide.

You guys are too tough for me..maybe you should try chopping off your fingers, that should give you some real pain satisfactory!

I know a 450-400 with 400 gr. bullet or a 470 with a 500 gr. bullet both going 2000 FPS just knocks the crap out of buffalo, so I think I will just remain a pansey..but thinks for the heads up on the latest in saddism!

that's the beauty of America, and the AR Forum Ray,
you have the ability to shoot whatever cartridges you find suitable (and bearable) and so do the rest of us here.

And we won't call you a Pansy(SIC) either, just because you choose one of those girlie-man peashooters instead of a manly cartridge.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Indlovu:

A 600 grain bullet at the more modest velocity of 2100-2150 fps does indeed make a lot of sense. That pretty much duplicates the .500 NE. A slow, heavy bullet like that would penetrate like crazy....good elephant/hippo medicine.

Dave

Dave,
From personal experience over 30 years of owning an original Gibbs .505 (made in 1927), very old cordite-powered cartridges with the 525gr solids give amazing penetration on elephant but the bullets do deform often. I've used 600gr Barnes solids mostly, and they are devastating at 2150fps on elephant - I use .458 Win Mag on all other big game. Being a lightweight (5' 8"; 165lbs) and preferring to recover rapidly after each shot, I don't fancy heavier recoil than necessary!
No space here to recount many experiences of tremendous .505 performance on big stuff, with this load. As always, excessive velocity often gives less penetration and/or bullet deformation.
Good Hunting - Richard Harland

quote:

Originally posted by Harland:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Indlovu:

A 600 grain bullet at the more modest velocity of 2100-2150 fps does indeed make a lot of sense. That pretty much duplicates the .500 NE. A slow, heavy bullet like that would penetrate like crazy....good elephant/hippo medicine.

Dave

Dave,
From personal experience over 30 years of owning an original Gibbs .505 (made in 1927), very old cordite-powered cartridges with the 525gr solids give amazing penetration on elephant but the bullets do deform often. I've used 600gr Barnes solids mostly, and they are devastating at 2150fps on elephant - I use .458 Win Mag on all other big game. Being a lightweight (5' 8"; 165lbs) and preferring to recover rapidly after each shot, I don't fancy heavier recoil than necessary!
No space here to recount many experiences of tremendous .505 performance on big stuff, with this load. As always, excessive velocity often gives less penetration and/or bullet deformation.
Good Hunting - Richard Harland

I suspect that it is the chicken (less bullet deformation at lower velocities) that results in the egg (more penetration).

Hence the flat point solids probably throw that theory out the window with their increased straight line penetration.

quote:

Originally posted by Harland:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Indlovu:

A 600 grain bullet at the more modest velocity of 2100-2150 fps does indeed make a lot of sense. That pretty much duplicates the .500 NE. A slow, heavy bullet like that would penetrate like crazy....good elephant/hippo medicine.

Dave

Dave,
From personal experience over 30 years of owning an original Gibbs .505 (made in 1927), very old cordite-powered cartridges with the 525gr solids give amazing penetration on elephant but the bullets do deform often. I've used 600gr Barnes solids mostly, and they are devastating at 2150fps on elephant - I use .458 Win Mag on all other big game. Being a lightweight (5' 8"; 165lbs) and preferring to recover rapidly after each shot, I don't fancy heavier recoil than necessary!
No space here to recount many experiences of tremendous .505 performance on big stuff, with this load. As always, excessive velocity often gives less penetration and/or bullet deformation.
Good Hunting - Richard Harland

Richard,

Is yours an original Gibbs ?

I have one - 1925 - will try to get someone to post pics for me + will PM Serial Number to you.

Harland,

thank you for your experience and insight. I think that the 505 would be perfect with a 600gr bullet at 2150-2200fps MV. It should hit like a freight train and penetrate deeply at that speed. I'd often wondered why Gibbs chose to not just replicate the 500 NE 3" in a bolt gun. Case dimensions are very close to the 577/500 of the same era. As a matter of fact, the last 505 I bought had some mixed fired brass, and eight cases were Bell 577NE headstamped. It is a tremendous cartridge, and a joy to shoot...standing!

thanks for your post

Rich
DRSS

I have a 505 Gibbs coming. I should have it in my hands in about 8-10 weeks. I notice that Norma's offerings in this caliber include the 600gn Woodleigh (soft and solid) at 2100fps. No doubt this is based on advice from PH's with real life experience. With a big case like that there is always a temptation to load it to faster velocities. However based on what I have read now I will be keeping velocities below 2200fps with 600gn bullets. Can any of you offer loading advice with Australian powders such as AR2209, AR2213SC, and AR2217. These are similar to H4350, H4831SC and H1000 respectively. I don't want to have too much airspace though. Also, who else makes factory ammo other than Norma, and who has unprimed brass available for sale? Many thanks for your help.

quote:

AR2209, AR2213SC, and AR2217. These are similar to H4350, H4831SC and H1000 respectively.

The powders are one and the same and simply rebadged by Hodgdon.

2208 is Varget
2206H is H4895
2225 is Retumbo

I have a Dumoulin 505 and have found that the old formula of 2050-2200 fps with premium bullets soft and solid's is a formula for death on any critter with a well placed shot. If I was specifically hunting lion I would up the velocity to 2300 on the 525 bullets, but only for a big cat. I am six ft. tall and weigh 180lbs and a 12 lb rife (which my rifle weighs) is quite comfortable to shoot and allows a quick second and third shot. I am using R-15 w/Kynoch filler so the decrease in powder charge (104 to 110 grains) is very comfortable on the shoulder. I shoot the 600 grain bullets at 2060 fps (same velocity as my 500 N.E.) and I shoot the 525 grain bullets at 2200 fps. I don't cringe when I think of taking this beloved rifle of mine to the range, I also for practice shoot 600 grain hard cast out of it by the dozens at 1500 fps and leave feeling I've shot my old 30-06. I too, as Ray Atkinson am not into Saddism, if you can handle the extra velocity-recoil, enjoy.

I would use an australian powder similar in burning rate to RL 15; then use an over powder wad (I dont like kapok- makes a terrible mess; i prefer cuttingout .600 pieces of foam from the Barnes bullet package).
This will give you the least recoil, rather than using a powder that fills the case. As a matter of fact, the only powder I could find that would fill the case was WC 872, a 20mm cannon powder.
Use Nick caicos's data on this site for RL 15; my rifle virtually duplicates the ballistics with tolerable recoil.
No worries about pressure, mate.your shoulder will give out before the brass does!

quote:

Originally posted by 338User:
I have a 505 Gibbs coming. I should have it in my hands in about 8-10 weeks. I notice that Norma's offerings in this caliber include the 600gn Woodleigh (soft and solid) at 2100fps. No doubt this is based on advice from PH's with real life experience. With a big case like that there is always a temptation to load it to faster velocities. However based on what I have read now I will be keeping velocities below 2200fps with 600gn bullets. Can any of you offer loading advice with Australian powders such as AR2209, AR2213SC, and AR2217. These are similar to H4350, H4831SC and H1000 respectively. I don't want to have too much airspace though. Also, who else makes factory ammo other than Norma, and who has unprimed brass available for sale? Many thanks for your help.

Indlovu would be talking about Hodgdon Varget Extreme, very close to RL15, which would be Aussie powder: AR2208

One could translate Nick's RL15 loads grain-for-grain with Varget. Might reguire 1 or 2 grains more of Varget to equal the RL15 velocities. Use the filler.

Excellent.

Richard,

Is yours an original Gibbs ?

I have one - 1925 - will try to get someone to post pics for me + will PM Serial Number to you.[/QUOTE]

500N,
Yes, made by George Gibbs in Bristol approx. 1927/8. The Germans bombed the factory in WWII and many records were lost, but I got further info from the Crudgington family who own the Gibbs brand. I once handled the original "pattern" .505 rifle when in their shop in Bath, UK. A piece of history indeed!

My rifle's number is B7361.

Yours,
Richard.

Dirklawyer,

thanks for the data. Could you perhaps give us the information on the mould you are using? I am going to need one, and am not seeing what I would like. I have to have one designed...too cheap. I have been using my brother's 650gr Brooks mould for his Shiloh 50-90 and turning gas check shanks on them to utilize the Hornady gas checks. A bother, that!

Rich
DRSS