Sumbuddy who know?

What old rifles used bullets of .395 caliber (up to 400-grain weight) with paper patch?

Sumbuddy please help me be less ignorant!

Buffalo Arms sells several weights of .395 bullets in the paper-patch motif.

NEI has off-the-shelf moulds for a .395 paper-patched bullet.

What cartridge are these bullets used in? PLEASE HELP!!!

HELP!!!

Interesting.....we really need a Buffalo Trace Emoticon here....

.401" or .403" barrel?
What are those .395 cast lead, paper-patched bullets being supplied for? I will call and ask around at:
www.buffaloarms.com

I guess the .396/240-grain GC mould from NEI is for 400NFBP3", which used to shoot a .395 Cup&Core of 230-grain weight (nickel base and exposed lead round nose): No Paper Patch, .395"-Grooved Barrel.

www.buffalotrace.com

40-50 Sharps BN
40-50 Sharps straight
40-60 WCF
40-60 Marlin / Colt
40-65 WCF
40-70 Sharps BN
40-82 WCF

And those are just what's in my collection. At least 2 of the above cartridges are carrying paper patched bullets from the factory.

Tailgunner,
Very good! Thank you!
So you actually apply paper patches to .395 lead bullets to shoot all of those?

Brandon at Buffalo Arms mentioned this list by telephone this AM:

40-70 Sharps Straight
40-50 Sharps
40-60 Marlin
40-90 Sharps
40-110 Winchester Express (3-1/4")
40-65 Ballard Everlasting (sic)
10.15mm Jarmann

All said to use .395 (10.03mm) lead bullets and paper patch ...

quote:

Originally posted by Tailgunner:
40-50 Sharps BN
40-50 Sharps straight
40-60 WCF
40-60 Marlin / Colt
40-65 WCF
40-70 Sharps BN
40-82 WCF

And those are just what's in my collection. At least 2 of the above cartridges are carrying paper patched bullets from the factory.

Can you cite some of the bore and groove diameters on your, above, rifles?

Thanks.

Mr. RIP:

Paper patched bullets were (are) made undersize and patched to bore diameter. The soft lead bullet was expected to bump up to fill the grooves. Not surprizingly, the thickness of the patching paper was choosen to achieve the correct finished diameter. Patching paper was commercially available in assorted thickness.

Hunting bullets were double wrapped, so a .0015" paper would add .006" to the bullet diameter. Just about right for a .400" bore.

Glenn

RIP
Those are CARTRIDGES in my collection, not rifles.
The following dimentions are bullet diameters (over the patch if applicable)
40-50 Sharps BN 0.403 (PP)
40-50 Sharps straight 0.403 (PP)
40-60 WCF
40-60 Marlin / Colt 0.404
40-65 WCF 0.391
40-70 Sharps BN
40-82 WCF
As a side note, the 401 SLR cartridge I have measures .403 on the bullet also.

A missing # means that I don't have that diameter listed on this data base (yet), I keep the list on 3 computers, and this one always the last to get updated.

Lower left corner

I see that the cartridges mentioned vary from .401 to .408" in the bullet diameter claimed for them.

The most common claimed bullet diameter in the bunch was .403". This would also be the bore diameter of the barrels most commonly.

Groove diameter would vary from .408" to .411" for a .403" bore.

The 40-90 Sharps (Straight) is the one that COTW identifies as the "Everlasting." It was a reloader's delight due to the heavily constructed 3.25" nickel-plated brass.
It was originally loaded with a lead, RN, .395 bullet of 370-grain weight, paper-patched to .403" diameter. Right? Same bullet and barrel as the 40-85 & 40-90 Ballard which had a 1/8" to 1/4" shorter case. Right?

Bore diameter of .403" and bump-up obturation to .408"-.411" groove diameter? How precise!

The 40-110 Winchester Express used the same bore and groove (.403" bore, .408"-.411" groove), was a bigger Bottle-Necked case of 3.25" length (50-basic necked down will make it), used a 260-grain copper-tubed SP bullet of only 260 grains (original factory load of year 1886 introduction), and less energy than either the "40-90 Sharps Straight Everlasting 3.25-inch" or the "40-85 & 40-90 Ballard 2.94-Inch to 3-1/8-Inch-or-Whatever." But this cup and core bullet was supposed to be .403" diameter too or was it closer to groove diameter??? A .403"/260-grain cast bullet with/without paper patch is also said to be correct for it???

The "40-90 Sharps Necked" was even more powerful with only a 2.63"-long case, and 370-grain bullet patched up to .403" bore and .408"-.411" groove.

What a mess! I'll bet some trial and error to establish proper paper patch thickness was sometimes required because the grooves varied so much and probably the bore diameters too, way back then.

I want one of those 40-caliber antiques to use .395" paper-patched lead bullets in.

A new wildcat comes to mind:
.395/40-110 Winchester Express
or
.395/40-90 Sharps Straight 3.25" Everlasting
or
.395/40-90 Sharps Necked

A Model 1874 Sharps chambered in any of these would be so much nicer than messing with paper patches.

Thanks all.

http://www.csharpsarms.com/rifles.php
http://www.shilohrifle.com/home.html
http://www.riflesmith.com/
http://www.assra.com/feature-november_december-2004.htm

To my eye the Riflesmith-Axtell 77 is nicer looking than the 74 or 75...But they are not guaranteed for smokeless...I don't know what Steve Earles little beauty is rated for...
~~For "New" I would buy a 75 action from CSharps then have it barreled with your barrel...Be sure to get "FIRM" del. date on action..
~~For quick and cheap I would buy a used American made Sharps either Shilo or CSharps then have it re-barreled...

I bought a CSharps 75 40-90 SS several years ago as I was told that there would be BPCR silhouette matches held in a nearby town...That never happen so I didn't shoot it as I didn't want to mess with BP except for silhoutte shooting...This last winter after finding some smokeless load data by John Cambell in "The Accurate Rifle" Dec. 2000 Vol. 3 No. 11 and "Handloader" #219 I decided to give it try this summer...Johns data is basically nitro for black type loading to get vel. around the BP levels..ie. 1350fps with a 400gr. bullet...Loads are with 4198,3031,4227 SR-4759,and other fast powders using Dacron as a filler...I believe he is using Dacron as a "little tuff" filler not the packed in style as avocated by Ross Seyfried,Sherman Bell and others...
I see on the "Double Rifle" forum here that people are using RL-15 with Dacron for higher vel. and I would like to go there once I understand the basics on using RL-15 in BP cart....I also need to learn more about using slooow (ie.H4831,etc.) powders in these BP cart...
The Brass!...If you go with the 40-90 case makes sure that you get the right brass for the chamber cut in your rifle...I have read on BPCR forums this can be major pain if not addressed in the beinning...Brass came with my rifle...
I think the brass is going to be the limiting factor on vel. as it seems very thin..The head stamp on my brass is BB 405 Win. which is stretched 405 Win brass I would quess...BB = Bertram...On the box hand written is 405, BASE 3 1/4"....
Ha... I was wrong...just measured the neck thickness with a caliper (no ball mic) it came to .012" same as my 9.3X57 brass...
So Rip I hope you go with the 40-90 SS so I can use your data being the lazy bastard that I am...Actually I have so many reloading/testing irons in the fire that I'll never get it all done before going tit's up... ...
I certainly enjoy your enthusiasm for all this sillyness... ...Great stuff!

After thought...If you are going to shoot cast in this rifle at say over 2100 fps you may want to go with a slower than 1:12 rate...How slow? I don't know...The project that Iam working on now is paper patch boolits (med. soft) to see if I can get around the 1:12 twist on my Ruger # 1 in 35 Whelen at 2500FPS....or you could go with rock hard WFN style boolits at 1:12 twist but I don't know the limits there...(yet)

Low Wall,
Thanks. I'll be dreaming of the Sharps rebarreled to .395. The 400/395NE is nearing completion (Ruger No.1). I will have to work out the loads on that one soon.
Starting loads in that will outperform all the 40-cal American Antiques.

WILL YOU GUYS STOP THIS! Here I've got my .395 Max in for teflon coating and sights. My Ruger #1 is sitting here with the .395 barrel beside it waiting to become a 400/.395. Now I find this BP/Smokeless stuff going on. Oh when will it all stop???

RIP and Prof242,

the paper patch material is high rag content paper. I use Esleeck Onion Skin, which is .002" thick. Two wraps equals .008" over bullet diameter.
What are the land and groove dimensions of your .395" barrels? Veral Smith makes a great PP mould, just specify "as cast" diameter. Soft lead alloy, perhaps 40:1.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Rich,
Thanks for the reply.
.395" groove and .387" land diameter for the new .395 family.

Buffalo Arms does supply 330, 370, and 400-grain paper-patch bullets in .395 caliber.
It is 40:1 soft lead/tin alloy.

My purpose for this thread was simply to drum up some info on what cartridges in the old Sharps, Ballard, and Winchester lines use these bullets of .395 diameter with paper patch.

There are many of them of various bore and groove diameter, so I guess the paper thickness and number of wraps must vary some to wrap the bullet up to bore size, and have it bump up to groove diameter for obturation on firing!!!

These so-called "Forties" must set some kind of record for number of differing barrel specs using the same bullet diameter(.395) with paper patch!!!

I am looking for your particular experience with this: what rifle cartridge did you shoot.

Your .008" wrap from .395" to .403" bore diameter seems to make the most sense, as that seems to be the most common bore diameter of all the "Forties."

This modern .395 stuff has taken back to flintlock 40-cals with .395" ball and .010" patch. Fun.

I am hoping to get into a Sharps 1874 in 40-90 Sharps Straight "Everlasting" for kicks next: I want to play with paper patches for that.
One of these days I might catch up to you in shooting and loading experience. You do have a few years on me.

What 40-cal obsolete cartridge were you paper-patching? Thanks.