I am loading the 404 for an upcoming trip. I am using the 340 gr NF bullet. I have found that RE 15 at 78 gr is an accurate load in this rifle. However upon case inspection prior to loading for it I found that the Norma cases used for this load have a distinct shiney ring around them about a quarter inch in front of the head. Looking closely I thought I could see a little bulge there. Micrometer showed it to be a swelling there of .02 larger than the case head. I checked for a thin place in the brass on the inside. No problem there. Is this too hot a load? The velocity was somewhat erratic with numbers from about 2495-2570. With some folks trying to get 2750 or better with this bullet I thought I was OK. I have my doubts now. What do you guys think?

1/4" in front of the base is too far to be a pressure sign. This seems to be the result of a previous chamber that wasn't cleaned up in a rechambering effort.

Is this a new barrel and an original chambering or am I right here...it's a rechambered barrel from some previous chambering.
Typical pressure signs are found in the case head and nearby.
.02 growth there is something I believe needs to be fixed before much more shooting. Something is dead wrong here.

.

quote:

Originally posted by D Hunter:
I am loading the 404 for an upcoming trip. I am using the 340 gr NF bullet. I have found that RE 15 at 78 gr is an accurate load in this rifle. However upon case inspection prior to loading for it I found that the Norma cases used for this load have a distinct shiney ring around them about a quarter inch in front of the head. Looking closely I thought I could see a little bulge there. Micrometer showed it to be a swelling there of .02 larger than the case head. I checked for a thin place in the brass on the inside. No problem there. Is this too hot a load? The velocity was somewhat erratic with numbers from about 2495-2570. With some folks trying to get 2750 or better with this bullet I thought I was OK. I have my doubts now. What do you guys think?

You must have a chamber ring caused by chatter or poor technique in chambering, concealed by polishing of the chamber, as Robgunbuilder would accuse me of doing with a double-reamer-wildcat-chambering.

This is a very low pressure load that you are shooting: 78 grains of RL-15 with the 340 gr North Fork SP. I SWAG it at less than 50K PSI, probably closer to 45K PSI.

It is shy of filling the case by quite a bit, eh? Needs a filler so as to be not so erratic, eh?

I use 87.6 grains of Varget with the 340 grain North Fork, and get 2700 fps. That would probably be equivalent to 86.6 grains of RL-15, for ballpark pressure: SWAG 60K PSI.

80 grains of RL-15 or 81 grains of Varget will give me about 2400 fps in a 24" barrel with 400 grainers: SWAG 50 to 55 K PSI (McGowen 10" twist stainless).

82 grains of RL-15 or 83 grains of Varget give 2525 fps with the 380 grain North Fork SP: SWAG 55K PSI

88 grains of H4831SC is a case filler with 400 grain Woodleighs and gives me only 2200 fps, and probably 40K PSI. There is no way I can get enough of this 4831 into the case to cause high pressure. There may be some tight barrels out there that can get high pressure and velocity with one of the 4831's but my .404 Jeffery's are not among them.

You have a bad chamber. My condolences.

I load for a 416/404, and use RL15, Varget and 4350. I moved away from RL15 because I felt that Varget was giving me better velocity at lower pressure. My rifle has a 21" tube.

350gr Speer PSP 74gr Varget WLMR 2251fps

400gr Deadtough 74gr Varget WLMR 2280fps

400gr Hor.solid 76gr RL15 WLMR 2300fps

400gr Hor.RNSP 74gr Varget WLMR 2250fps

400gr Hor RNSP 83gr AA4350 WLR 2200fps

400gr Hor RNSP 76gr RL15 WLMR 2250fps

These loads are not hot, but they are at the upper end of my tolerance of the recoil.

I have had problems with case separation which after much cogitation I have determined is from a difference between chamber dimensions and die dimensions. I have sought to eliminate this by neck sizing, but the experiments continue. I mention this because it creates a crack about where you say your case is bulged, for whatever it is worth to you.

I hope this data is helpful to you. Kudude

quote:

If you go back in the AR archives you will see that I got into quite a fight with Ray Atkinson about the 404 and hot loads using a 400 gr bullet.

He in turn claimed the basis for his loads using came for an article from Rifle 136 of August 1991.

I procured an old copy via E-bay and note that this author one G Sitton did not at any time use IMR 4831 but he does use RL-15. Also the apparent high end velocities and claimed by Ray seem to be for lighter bullets and not the 400 gr bullet.

Interesting. You are a very thorough dude, ALF.

Cheers,
Canuck

DH, check the other posting you had, but I think you could have a headspace problem. Your RL15 load is a mild one in my M70.

How is it, that the .404 is such a china doll? Other cartridges from the same era have followed the modern times and powders. The .300 and .375 H&H, the .30-06, no one have any worries about higher preasures in those.

But the .404 Jeffery.
Leave that at 2200 with a 400, end of story.
For the love of mom, why?
"...cause you never know whose gun your handloads will be fired in"

Were most .404's made on low quality actions? How many are out there?
In my 15 years as a gunsmith and hunter, I have never fired any ammo in my guns but my own.
Who does all this swapping of ammo?

What is this?

Anyone with an opinion on this?

Bent;

My .404 is a Cogswell & Harrison built on a standard Mauser '98 action, complete with thumb-slot.

As far back as 1970, I was loading the Barnes Original 400-grain bullets (copper-tubing jackets) to a consistent 2440 fps (chronographed, yes, in 1970....the bullet broke two metallic-printed screens which had to be changed for each shot). The first powder used for this performance level was Norma 204, and later IMR 4350.

The brass was all Kynoch, of two types, all bought as factory loads. Some was Berdan primed steel solids, and the later stuff was Boxer-primed softpoints with the 5-round boxes marked "Made in England with Some Swedish Components".

My rifle was perfectly happy with the 2400-plus loads, and I used them until we left the area where game was big enough to warrant the caliber. The rifle is now semi-retired and living mostly on a diet of cast bullets. However, I do still fire a few of the 'big' loads occasionally, just as a trip back in memory. The rifle is barely 8.5 pounds, and it doesn't take many rounds to refresh my recollections!

Thanks for imput, Bruce, but that was not what I was looking for. The .404 Jeffery's ability to be loaded to higher preassures is widely known. My question was why this spesial cartridge has been stuck in 1920, and not been moderniced like other cartridges of the same era.

Brent:

I own a 404 J in a modern action (win pre-64 style). I shoot it at 2400 ft/s without any problem of pressure. I have asked the same question to many people, and I concluded that there are many very battered and old 404 J, still working, specially in Africa, and I think that ammunition manufacturers doesn't take any risk to use modern ammunition in those battered rifles. A few years ago I saw and old 404 J, (the rifle I think It belonged to National Parks) in Zimbabwe, and the first look I took, was the rifle wasn't in good condition to stand high pressures (pity chamber, rusted barrel and bore ...).

Could it be that the 'shiny ring' you see is just the normal expansion ring when any cartridge is fired?

Easy to complicate a simple issue...

There's one factory load that I know of which runs well above the old British specs, and that is from RWS.

The velocity for the 400-grain bullet in their 10.75 x 73, or .404 Jeffery, is quoted as 2330 fps, or fully 200 fps faster than the Kynoch stuff I have chronographed. An extra 200 fps with 400 grains is nothing to be sneezed at!

A current webpage lists the RWS load with 26g bullet at 705 mps, which is right around the 2330 fps I quoted above.

I find it interesting that Mr. Howell missed such a string of 10.5mm cartridges when writing the book. Wonder what happened???

One of the reasons for taking more care with the 404 is that the low angle shoulder is more prone to permitting the case to stretch. At the cost per case, you don't want to do a lot to shorten case life. Then there is the real reason: Anything over 2300fps hurts like hell! Kudude

I use 80 grains of IMR 4320 under a 400grn woodleigh bullet for 2300 fps. Worked well on a cow ele last July!

My rifle is Type A Oberndorf Mauser.

Why load a cartridge hotter than what it was meant for, especially when it has done the job very sucessfully!

quote:

Originally posted by Bren Mk1:
I find it interesting that Mr. Howell missed such a string of 10.5mm cartridges when writing the book. Wonder what happened???

Brent -

Ken (Howell) did not miss those cartridges. He chose not to include them. Before he put his book together, Ken intentionally decided to NOT include either wildcats or factory cartridges for which here were no SAAAMI specs, nor their European equivalent or in the case of wildcats, for which original manufactuers' spec documents are not to be had.

He made exceptions in some instances...that is he did include some cartridges for which he could only obtain some sound, non-factory-based but factory approved standardized drawings. He also excluded rounds which had been legitimate factory offerings but which are both obsolete and for which bona fide drawings were no longer available or accessible. (Often as a result of WW II.)

One need only look at all the versions of some cartridges bearing the same name, to understand why he did that. It was simply a matter of confirmable spec accuracy, and safety.

That's one of the reasons Ken's book is accepted as a "standards reference work" by the industry. All the figures within are based on standardized drawings with traceable documented lineage which can be accepted as "norms" for the cartridge names they represent.

The .223/250 Joe Blow Wolfstooth need not apply...unless Mr.Blow gets SAAMI, or some major manufacturer to establish dimensional drawings, standards, and tolerances.

At least, that's how Ken explained it to me when he was writing the book.

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Alberta Canuck:

Ah yes and there is a world of cartridges outside of the realm of SAAMI, the US market and Mr. Ken Howell ! The list of european cartridges makes COW and Howell look like only a summary of what once was.

None of these were wildcats, most if not all now only of historical interest but they were once cartridges used in europe.

Perhaps I should have been more explicit when I wrote "SAAMI or its
European equivalent..." By that, of course, I was including CIP. Ken also was in contact with RWS, Kynock, Norma, and many other major manufacturers of ammunition world wide, as well as proof houses throughout the world when gathering info for his book.

You'll note, many of the included cartridges also state as their source "designer's specs".

He did NOT include rounds for which he found no sound historically provenenced data is available, or for which dimensions are only available by measuring existing cartridges or cartridge cases. That's because there is no way of knowing how far off of correct specs the manufacturing tolerances may have been.

He left out cartridges I would have included, but that does not mean he was or is ignorant of them. Simply that he did not find available references sufficient to meet his standards of enough accurate information for their inclusion.

I am not writing any of this as a defense of Ken's standards, nor as his bosom buddy. Simply was stating why many cartridges we all know to exist were not included.

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
Anyone with an opinion on this?

Hi Bent,
I have loaded my ZG 47 with Stewart's 425 grains Hi Performers with Norma 204 powder up to 2400 fps, but I really don't see any use for it, because 2150 - 2250 is plenty enough.

In the end you don't want more energy (ME) but momentum (MM) and therefore i am of the opinion that a 450 grains bullet at 2150 fps would really be something on the big dangerous stuff...