The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Wikipedia - Winchester 50-110 >>> Elephant killer?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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While my computer is completing its weekly "Total Maintenance" series of applications I have been digitally "thumbing through" my unorganized downloads folder. I was reading Wikipedia's web page on Winchester 50-110 rifles and ammunition. The final sentence of its web history is a humdinger. Not only does it make sense to my mind, it is also among the most bizarre tidbits of information I have read - that is not political. The web page is [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50-110_Winchester"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50-110_Winchester[/URL]. Here is the final sentence. Emphasis is mine. Also in more modern guns like the new browning 1886 71 Winchester and the new 1886 Winchesters made in Japan are capable of much higher pressures and the 50–110 WCF can achieve up to 6,000 foot pounds of energy. Who has created these "elephant killer" handloads? . . . Anyone? . . . Bueller? How do they compare with basic cartridge case variations such as: 450 Alaskan (Fuller version more reliable feeder); 50 Alaskan; 510 Kodiak Express; and 475 Turnbull? Since the 475 Turnbull was created to be used in gunsmithed modern Winchester reproduction 1886 rifles that Mr. Turnbull rates as accepting 40,000-42,000 psi, with quicker twist than the Winchester 1886 50-110 Express version and longer cartridge case it appears to be able to safely match bullet and ballistics of late nineteenth- and early twentieth- century British double rifles intended for elephant hunting. I understand that no one needs such a package. I understand that creating ammunition for such a package will be neither easy nor significantly superior to the others in my third paragraph beyond 100 yards. Dedicated tinkerers should be able to kvetch out the last drops of power for closer range hunting. The essential reason to test the package is: "It'll be fun." It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it. Sam Levinson | ||
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wikipedia contains contributor data and may be correct, incorrect, or totally false. George  | |||
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Well....Quickload does show 6000ft-lb with a woodleigh 535 grain solid.....with 60 grains of RL7 compressed 10%......and a 54 inch barrel....at 67k PSI. So there is THAT! I admit I was bored enough to see if any powder short of unique that would fit in the case could get there at less than 100k psi. I'm amazed anything came even this close. To turn it around, a "better" absurd question would be why no one makes lever actions in 500N???? Close enough for the internet I suppose! DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" "PS. To add a bit of Pappasonian philosophy: this single barrel stuff is just a passing fad. Bolt actions and single shots will fade away as did disco, the hula hoop, and bell-bottomed pants. Doubles will rule the world!" | |||
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Something sticks in my craw about this thread. Notwithstanding that people do strange, heavy loads with smokeless powder in .45-70s, the nomenclature of .50-110 carries the expectation it will be used with 300-grain bullets (or lighter?). Is the rifling of factory .50-110s fast enough for 535-grain projectiles? Does a Winchester 86 action have enough length to load them? I'm pretty sure Pondoro would not approve the use of .50 cal. 300-grain bullets for elephants. To fiddle things to fit the Turnbull outlook is analogous with chambering a .450 No. 2 in a stout falling-block action and filling the case with slow burning powder - except the latter may be safer. | |||
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 Thanks to Omnivorous_Bob for the time expenditure for our benefit. And thank goodness my copy of QuickLOAD stopped working, again, and I did not feel like paying a third time to update it into functionality. I fly by the seat of my pants now.  Rip ... | |||
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Owning both a 50-110 in an 86 with a 36 inch, that is correct 36 inch barrel and a marlin cowboy in 50 alaskan with a 26 inch barrel, I can tell you this information is way off. I do use the 535 grain woodleigh. But the velocity is 1850 fps in the marlin and a bit higher in the winchester. Cant say exactly because I have not chronoed it. I submit however, the 535 grain woodleigh at 1850 might be capable of the job. Just for clarification, Turnbull made both of mine and the rate of twist is just fine for the 535 grain. Further, I can attest the the woodleigh leaves a golf ball size hole when exiting the offside shoulder of a bear. I dont know how that equates to elephant lungs, but it does expand at 1800 fps. | |||
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Seems like in one of the Wolfe published magazines there was an article about 6 years back about the 50 EX which wa nothing more than the 50-110 chambered in re-worked and rebarrled Marlin 1895s. The loads were not 6,000 fps but were over 5,000 fps with 26 inch barrel. | |||
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I just noticed you said SOLID. If I were going to shoot a solid in a lever action. It would be loaded in the chamber not the magazine and softs or flatpoints in the magazine. I know there are folks who make flatpoint solids for leveractions but the woodleigh in a roundnose and that carries a chance of a discharge in the tube magazine by recoil when firing. So, I would only use one for the first shot, then softs. | |||
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LHeym500, You mean 6000 fpe and 5000 fpe, not fps, typo from the Cumberland Gap region of VA? Rip ... | |||
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You got it fpe. I am closer to Tennessee. So, that explains it. Science and spelling not our strong points. McPherson I think is the gentleman who built the rifles and wrote the article. | |||
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If the basic question is are these things elephant killers, then the 475 Turnbull was designed to meet the basic standards for African DG rifle in terms of velocity, bullet weight, and SD. It is based on the 50-110 necked down to 470. The fifties miss out on SD. But that doesn't absolutely mean they are worse, so long as the cartridge capacity is realistic then the fifty can be preferable in some situations. The 50 Alaskan has downed elephant. The 50-110 is a lot larger case. Back a few years a hunter called Vince Lupo made a splash taking all big five with a pair of custom Marlin Guide guns in 45-70, with custom ammo. Over here, there was a lot of push back on the African forum, and other forums on the grounds that the 45-70 was fundamentally unsuited for the task. However, raise the specter of the 50 Alaskan, and my impression was that the complaints stopped. They might have said it wasn't the best; or that a Marlin isn't a serious rifle for this kind of work (less of an issue with an 1886, 71, or 95); or why spend 4 K on a rifle that is less shootable or reliable than say a Zastava at 600 bucks in even the lowly 9.3x62. But as to the 50 AK, didn't seem to be the crux of the problem. So then the issue moves on to what is the imagined scenario where you need a DG rifle where that DG rifle would make sense. Assume for the moment it is a Turnbull of the highest quality, and it runs like a top, and you have some serious stopping power, why would you have a Winchester lever? Well the main reason would be that under modern field conditions, the PH doesn't arguably have the time to work the bolt when stopping a charge. But you can work a lever at least twice as fast. That is basically the case that the great Don Heath made for the idea that recent practices now lean again in favour of the double rather than the bolt. So realistically the main advantage would be for a PH, and they have no interest in levers. But someone else will see the scenario differently... | |||
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Oh, you mentioned the difficulty finding ammo. I think loaded premium ammo is available in the US, and Starline makes brass, Woodley and Barnes make bullets, and a lot of people make hard cast bullets. Even in Canada getting the ammo is no problem, which is odd since the guns are as rare as hen's teeth. Compared to getting Rigby, or Gibbs or Jeffery ammo, it is about 1/3rd the cost for a reloader. That is the mostly the Starline brass. More practice is good for your shooting. | |||
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Some of us (myself) just like lever actions, just like some guys like double rifles. Both have limitations, if you are ok with it, why not hunt with one. As I have been hunting with a lever gun for over 50 years, I am alot faster and practiced with it than a bolt rifle. Shooting 6000 rounds a year in one for cowboy action shooting also adds to confidence and rapid fire hits on target. | |||
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If all you want to do is kill ele with a Miroku/Winchester 1886, then have Grizzly Cartridge load some ele killer ammo for you as they did for my Miroku 1886 .45-90 with 26 inch full octagon barrel. Rifle:  Please, no Snowflake concerns about the steel butt plate bruising your shoulder. Dead ele:  Nothing new here as this was done a decade ago for a PAC hunt. Just use the right bullets, place them right and PRESTO, you have a dead ele! The 450 grain Kodiak FMJ FP,launched at 2150 fps also makes short work of Buff (Cape, Asian, Bison, Water, etc). Use a FPS from NF or a Punch Bullet and it shoots through the ele head and into the body. Again, nothing new, as this has even been done with Punch bullets at a lower velocity from a .45-70 years ago. Just for the fun of it, use a ballistics calculator and see the foot pound yield of the .45-90 450 grain Kodiak bullet at 2150 fps. Not bad for an old off the shelf lever gun design. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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I have some Norma 404 Jeff ammo with 450 grain bullet. It is listed with muzzle velocity of 2150 fps and a muzzle energy 4620 foot pounds. Go Duke!! | |||
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TBD, That sounds about right. I wrote down the energy for that load and will add to post when I locate it. I used the Hornady on-line ballistic calculator and it came back with 4618 foot pounds.  Obviously, it does not require 6,000 foot pounds to kill an elephant with modern technology. Call me a skeptic, but it seems to me that many of the old DG rules and beliefs need to be revised and brought current. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Wikipedia - Winchester 50-110 >>> Elephant killer?
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