Today I received a Winchester M70 classic stainless synthetic in .375HH. I purchased this for a client to use, the gun was his choice.

The first surprise was to find out that it was a CRF action, or strongly resembling pre '64 design as the manual states. The various catalogues never mentioned that?? Yes, for the classic safari, but not for the stainless/synthetic. So, A CRF...

The recoil pad is a brick! Don't know what they were thinking there, better get a new one on there pronto.

The barrel contour looks heavier than that of my .416 Rigby.

Trigger is a bit heavy but crisp.

Sights seem to be on straight, or almost so. I need to measure to confirm a hunch that the rear sight might be a hair off-center. Don't like the shape of the rear sight, it obscures too much of the target.

Drilled/tapped holes seem aligned.

Plenty of room between magazine bottom plate and the stock, all sorts of debris could get in there.

I don't like the synthetic stock. It looks and feels flimsy. It's probably strong and tough, but it feels like a stock meant for a .243 or something like that.

But, it's a controlled feed action! So let's put a round in and see. I push one down, close the action and halfway CLONCK. What the H...??? Try again... CLONK, again...now it goes in. I try two dozen more times, get about 1 in 4 "clonks". The egde of the case mouth grabs onto something. Needs some investigation exactly where...



Oh joy, now I have one controlled feed gun that won't eject properly, and one that doesn't feed properly.


Frans

For starters, the barrel should be removed by a gunsmith, and the extractor cut and chamber entrance edges should be beveled and polished smooth. These rifles are "kit guns" that must be completed after purchase, and you will learn a lot in doing so.

Yes, I can see the little edge that most likely causes the problem. I don't suppose I can reach that without barrel removal, huh?

Is it OK to round that sharp edge that forms the entrance to the chamber a tad? Probably would solve all issues.

Well, I'd better take this damn gun to the smitty, and have it taken care off...

Frans

Frans Diepstraten,

What you are probably seeing is the mouth of the cartridge catching on the sharp edge of the headspace surface. This is one edge you do not want to round out because you have at best only .010" perside for the cartridge to headspace on. A better idea is to chamfer the out side edge of the cartridge mouth. This will eliminate the edge that catches the belt cut.

Good luck,
Headache

quote:

Originally posted by Headache:
A better idea is to chamfer the out side edge of the cartridge mouth. This will eliminate the edge that catches the belt cut.

What are you saying here? That the edge that causes feeding problems is required for proper headspacing? Who designed this crap???

Chamfering of cartridge mouths is doable when you handload your cartridge, but this gun is going to be used by an unsuspecting customer with a few boxes of factory loads...

So is there no solution for this?

Frans

I have one just like you describe, however, mine seems to feed like glass - even empty cases usually. The drilled/tapped holes may be a tad off, but I haven't shot it from the bench enough to really tell. I removed the "open" sights and filled the holed in with plugs. The recoil pad is a POS, and my next investment will be a McMillian stock. If your friend can handle a long LOP, then the simplest solution may be to put a LimbSaver recoil pad on it and be done with it. I'm kinda short, so the 14.5" LOP with the new pad is at least an inch too long. Most people that I heard from seem to agree that, though it is not the best stock, there is no real impediment to accuracy from the "recycled milk jug" stock.

All that said, if you have time I'd send it back to Winchester with an explanation of the problem and let them have a chance at fixing it.

P.S. The weight given on Winchester's website for that rifle is lower than reality.

quote:

Originally posted by Redlander:
All that said, if you have time I'd send it back to Winchester with an explanation of the problem and let them have a chance at fixing it.

It's hard to admit to stupidity in public, but I have done it before so...

I purchased this gun unseen, off a guy in the Yukon. No where in Canada was this gun for sale at a retailer, and the importer wasn't too confident he'd have one any time soon. It was advertised as NIB, and as far as I could see it was just that. Some residue in the barrel, maybe from the factory testing, or maybe the previous owner put a few shots through it...?
I don't remember any marks on the bolt or follower, I'll inspect some more tonight.

The easy way out would be to tell my client (a guy coming up for a hunt), here's your gun, good luck, but that rubs me the wrong way. I'd rather fix it. I need the gun all tricked-out by beginning of September, so sending it anywhere far off (across the US-CDN border e.g.) is out of the question.

Frans

Frans,

The edge you need to bevel/smooth (VERY slightly) to avoid the feeding hang-up you describe is the outside edge of the chamber opening - NOT the second "edge" you see just a fraction of an inch beyond that... The headspacing of the case occurs with that second "edge" just inside the chamber where the belt fits into place.

Most likely your case mouth is catching that first edge as it goes in. Very, very minute smoothing/rounding of this edge should eliminate this.

On all my bolt guns the first thing I do is take a very fine piece of sandpaper and polish the rails/feed lips, magazine area and the feed ramp. This makes feeding smoother, eliminates the cases being scarred by the sharp edges by repeated firings, etc. In your case it sounds like the chamber edge just needs to be bevelled ever so slightly...

Let us know how it goes, but I doubt it will be difficult to remedy.

Oh boy, I'm going to have to take another close look. I remember a tiny circular edge, which is very sharp, just beyond the area where the bolt lugs lock. It looks like it might be the headspacing "rim", but I'm outside my comfort zone here. I don't remember another edge in front of that. There's the big bulky zone where the lugs lock, and then a wee ways in there is the circular egde... This one looks like it may very well stop an incoming cartridge. Don't remember any other edges. Maybe I'll try a picture this afternoon.

Thanks for all suggestions.

Frans

Frans,

You are wanting to polish the chamber at the rear barrel face, nothing inside the chamber.

But if you will use a dowel chamfered to a 90 degree tip (45 deg bevel) to seat the abrasive it is physically impossible for the abrasive to reach the headspace cut. Simply make sure the dowel is a bit larger than belt diameter. Bolt body diameter is perfect as it is self aligning in the races. You may need to keep bolt release pushed in to allow for easier rotation when polishing.

OK, the cartridge definitely binds on the little edge that I think you mean the cartridge headspaces on. Specifically, on the bottom side, where I really don't see any other edge that can cause of blockage.

Now I may sound like I know what I'm talking about, but I'm not. The cartridge headspaces on the "rim", right, on the top of the bottom of the cartridge? (Edited: Oops, it headspaces on the belt, did a little search. So rounding that rim may cause problems... what problems? Case moving too far into the chamber? Extraction problems?)

The extractor seems to function properly, I can slip in a round under the extractor with the bolt removed from the rifle, and it holds it while I move the bolt up and down and left and right.

The problem does not seem to change with more or less cartridges in the magazine (simulating magazine spring tension, though the cartridges do not get shoved completely under the extractor (btw, this is the same with my CZ .416 Rigby, which does not have the little edge...headspaces on the shoulder?? So maybe both suffer from a weak spring, but the Rigby just doesn't have the edge to cause the jam?)

So how is this going away? I can't see myself polishing anything in there that is so close together without removing the barrel. I don't have fancy around-the-corner polishing equipment. It's smitty time tomorrow I guess. Hoping that he *does* know what he is doing.

Frans

Geez Fran, get with the program, the .375 H&H headspaces on the belt!

Do not go near the belt recess in the chamber with any polishing!

Besides the outer edge of the chamber, the sharp edges of the extractor cut in the breech end of the barrel also need beveling/rounding/smoothing/polishing. A soft point bullet can catch one of those edges when feeding and create a total jam in the heat of battle.

I am lucky that a slip on pad makes this beater rifle fit me just great.

I too have found the milk jug stock is no detriment to accuracy.

While the barrel is off for smoothing of the breech knife edges, it is also a good idea to go ahead and rechamber to .375 Weatherby.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Geez Fran, get with the program, the .375 H&H headspaces on the belt!

Yes, my apologies, while you were typing I did a quick netsearch and noticed the error (see edit in message above).

Am I the only one with this problem? I would think that such a sharp edge would cause this kind of problem all the time, unless you can feed the cartridge right-smack through the middle.

Frans

Frans,
Yes, if you enlarge the belt recess in the chamber, you have the potential for misfire (no-fire) as well as possibly causing sticky extraction if the cartridge does or does not fire.

It is well known that the knife sharp edge of the new M-70 Classic extractor cut (its different from the Pre-64's extractor cut) may catch the soft point nose now or then, hit or miss. It happened to a brown bear hunter in a write-up from Alaska. That nearly ruined his day, having a hopelessly jammed rifle that required backup.

If the nose of the bullet and the chamferred leading edge of the cartridge case mouth clear the entry edge of the chamber breech, I think it is not possible for the belt recess to cause any problems. Period.

Just do what should be done to every single one of these super beater rifles: get all the sharp breech edges smoothed up, but stay away from the belt recess in the chamber.

The so-called machinists that build Winchesters appearantly can't comprehend "deburring". I have four Classic actions around here and every one is or was razor sharp at the chamber mouth.

They either catch the cartridge mouth or shave brass off the side.

Ten seconds with a de-burring tool before the barrel was screwed on would have made things a lot smoother.

Mine has the same problem, I put a McMillan on it
I had to do some inletting around the bottom metal before it would fit. The plastic stock
on it was junk it seemed to bind in several places
and the barrel wasn't "floated" Mine goes to the
smith tomorrow to do what RIP suggested.
Other then the less then perfect manufacturing
it seems like a pretty good rifle
Charlie

Visited a gun smith with the aforementioned rifle. He didn't seem to think anything in particular wrong with it. And granted, if the push forward on the bolt is strong enough the cartridge pops in, or did everytime he tried. He couldn't explain the hang-ups with slow feed (well, he explained the hang-up on the headpspacing edge, but not how to remedy it). He basically told me to get over it and slam those bullets in... which unfortunately didn't work for me 100% of the time.

I might as well head to the range with this puppy and sight her in. See if I can't uncover any other hiddens "treasure".

Frans