During and after the nice discussions you all have sent me on various topics related to double rifles, I've worked on two possible sales.

I was beaten out of the first by a hair. However, after a Google search and looking through 27 pages of references on double rifles I was able to find a seller, check his references, and make a buy. Guy turned out to be for real with a very good reputation and known by two fellas I know locally.

When the money and the FFL get where they need to go, and shipping occurs ... I'll be the new owner of an "as new" Searcy 470 NE field grade rifle. It is a Searcy frame about a year old.

Price was fair (not cheap) ... especially given that the Searcy site reflected a price rise yesterday to $8500 for the field gun.

I've gone through all of the old listings on this forum related to loading for the 470 NE and have a fair amount of data.

I don't see any real data on cast projectile loads for the 470 ... though I have located a source for such bullets.

I have also found a set of on the shelf CH4D dies for 470 NE, and the seller is throwing in a few 470 NE spents. (C&H has them on the shellf ... six sets left. Price was $138 plus $6.90 for a shell holder.)

NEXT questions ...

1) Who carries Woodleigh softs for the 470? Midway lists them as back ordered.

2) Does NECG have a scope mounting approach that can be used on the Searcy? Anyone out there found an innovative approach that doesn't cost $500-$1000 for the mount? ($300-500 would be better ;>

3) Is there any information that I really need to know about the Searcy?

Am still kinda in shock ... been wanting a double since I was in high school some 35 years ago. Probably not asking all of the questions I should ask.

Guys ... thanks for the beginnings of an education along the way. I REALLY appreciate it.

Hi Mike,
Congratulations on the new rifle. You should have a good time getting to know the new 470. You could try Huntingtons for the Woodleigh bullets. They list them and they have a website at www.huntingtons.com Best of luck.
Take care,
Dave

Mike:
Congratulations on your Searcy 470NE! I'm curious why you want to scope a heavy double intended for fast, close-range work?

mstarling
Congratulations on your 470 Nitro.
For a good deer and pig load try some www.hawkbullets.com 350gr. .025jkt bullets.
Start with 70gr. of IMR3031 and work up untill they "regulate" in your gun. For bigger game I would use the .035jkt. These shot real well at 75gr. in a 470 Chapuis I helped a fella develop loads for. You must use a filler, either polyester[dacron] or a foam "plug" that is compressed by the seating of the bullet. I cut mine out of a sheet of foam the proper thickness with a 50 Browning Case, sharpened with a chamfer tool.
A scope on a double rifle is an excellent idea. For a 470 you will need a top quality Quick Detach mount. Beware of some European scopes , they do not have enough eye relief for a hard kicker. Leupolds work good.
A scope with a heavy reticle and those 350gr. bullets would make a great Leopard rifle, and with the proper 500gr bullet would be great for baited Lion.

Let us know how she shoots.

[ 05-24-2003, 23:34: Message edited by: N E 450 No2 ]

Guys,

Shot a Chapius fitted with a 1.5 - 5x Zeiss on a moving buf practice target range. Also shoot the same range with my CZ550 in .416 Rigby. It is fitted with a 2.5 Leupold having a #4 reticle. Both work really well on fast moving close things ... while giving you some ability to shoot at longer ranges.

The Rigby setup is hell on milk jugs to 200 yards. Makes for quite a display I might add.

Was hoping a long eye relief (3.5-4"), light, low power scope on the double might extend it's usefulness to 100+ yards ... and given my lousy eyesight might help the light gathering near dawn and dusk.

Sent a note to the Hawk bullets folks yesterday asking what their delay to ship was. Hope some can arrive with the rifle.

Am pretty concerned about the filler/ringing problem, but can't get a read on how serious it really is. Causes me heart burn when thinking about light bullets (which should be great for smaller game). Any more opinions or first hand information would be appreciated.

mstarling
I have edited my above post to include info about using a filler. In my 450 No2 I MUST use a filler with ALL loads. Even with 100gr of IMR 4831. I have used Dacron [polyester pillow stuffing] and foam. I have used two different types of foam, one "firmer" than the other and can tell no difference in performance between the two.
I researched the "chamber ringing" problem and came to the following conclusion: All chamber ringing incidents involved very small anounts of filler. With Nitro Express and Nitro for Black loads you use a large "wad" of dacron that is compressed by the bullet against the powder. I have been unable to find any incidents of chamber ringing when this has been done. I have shot several hundred loads in my 450 No2 with 350, 480, and 500 grain bullets with dacron and IMR3031, and IMR4831. I have since switched over to foam filler and fired at least 300 rounds with the above 2 powders and RL-15. My favorite loads are now RL-15, foam filler, with 480 and 500gr bullets. With the 350gr bullets I still use IMR3031 and foam filler.
I have also tested several Nitro For Black loads with 4198,15grains of dacron, with 300 and 405 gr jacketet bullets, and 400gr cast bullets with good results. The next time I shoot the 450 No2 I will be testing [they are already loaded] 300gr Jacketed Hollow Points with 52gr. of IMR4198, and foam filler, velocity 1880fps. This load shot very good at 50 yards [good groups, right with the sights] with dacron filler so I am testing it with foam filler.
As long as you follow these guidlines you should have no problems. The 350gr. loads are well worth developing.

mstarling
How did you like the 470 Chapuis?

Actually, the Chapius was a 9.3x74R ... very nice quick moving little gun. Stock has an odd shape and was VERY long.

Good tight firearm. Action was stiff like a new Browning ... a little hard to open. I found the ejectors to be a little aggravating. They tossed the brass into the next county.

Little gun was ure accurate though. Right bbl was shooting very well at 200 yards. Again, that water jug thing

Finish on the Chapius is superb. Better than the Searcy. I think I'd have liked it better in .375 Flanged though.

Sorry about the confusion.

Given the late misunderstanding with the French, I didn't really consider a Chapius ... They don't seem to come up on the used market very often anyway. Maybe because their owners buy what they like and then keep them. Could be a very good sign.

mstarling
I have a 9.3x74R Chapuis, check my previous posts, I have found it to be an excellent rifle. I have had it for several years, it is my favorite hunting rifle under 40cal.

I think you will find that most "RINGING" will be with the use of Cream of Wheat, as filler! I don't know how this got started, people useing this stuff behind bullets, but it is a practice that I do not reccomend! Cream of wheat was used to fire form cases, WITHOUT A BULLET by holding the rifle pointing up, and fireing it over two or three grains of fast shotgun powder! It works fine for that, but is not a filler to be used behind a bullet! The cream of wheat becomes a solid when sudden pressure is applied, and you can see if it fire forms with out a bullet, then it has to develope horrendous pressures when behind a bullet! The other thing that caused problems was placeing a wad down on top of the powder collumn with airspace between the wad, and bullet.

Dacron fiber fill will not hurt your rifle, if used properly! enough needs to be used so that the fiber is slightly compressed when the bullet is seated. This holds the podwer against the primer, avoiding a flash over! Not useing a filler can cause much more damage than the filler ever will. The fiber is not consumed by the fireing of the cartridge, but is spit out the muzzle, as fluff!

[ 05-25-2003, 17:18: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

I have read that dacron does cause ringing in barrels! But I have never used it nor had ringing from any reason. I don't see why less or for that matter no dacron would be worse, ringing wise, than a lot of it?

I use kapox in reduced loads to hold the powder charge against the primer. In cases the size of the .222 rem thru .220 Swift a 0.5 grain tuft is enough and for cases from 38/55 thru .375 H&H 0.7 grains. I prefer magnum primers with these loads. If the load is light IMR's Sr 4759 is good and for a load that will get a cast bullet going up to 2200 fps in a .375 then IMR 3031 is the best that I have used.

On the Hawk bullets. There have been threads here, at 24hourcampfire and on HA discussing the topic of "bullets that blow up rifles" and another accident where a Hawk bullet was involved.

The reason for the concern besides the blown up rifles is the fact that Hawk bullets have a large hole in the base of the jacket and the non secured lead core could be, in theory, blown out of the jacket leaving the jacket in the bore!

mstarling-First of all congrats on your Searcy 470 NE. I'm sure you'll love it. I have a 470 NE made by Butch and have quite a bit of experience with it. It is a damn fine Buff load at close range! try 88 grs of Rl-15 behind a 500 gr woodleigh with enough DACRON to just fit to the case mouth. Crimp the bullet in place tightly. You'll love this load! In the case of cast bullets, be carefull in that you will need a mold that will cast .475-.476 diameter bullets. The RCBS molds are too small in diameter and won't work properly.
Savage 99- Once again I have to totally disagree with what you've READ! Once again, advice from people who don't actually own or have shot a 470 NE is less than useless! I have to say, you have an anoying way of stating facts that are patently untrue! After using DACRON in litterally hundreds of big bore reloads, I've never seen or heard of anyone having a chamber ring. Yes I do actually know what a chamber ring is( do you) and all confirmed cases have been due to fillers other than DACRON and generally because an airspace was created between the bullet and the filler! If you have a real example please show it!-Rob

Savage
Dacron will not ring your barrels. Dacron poly filler is what I use in my 450/400 3 inch.

There were some discussions several months ago concerning what Ross Seyfried said about loading a PB double with Filler.

Seyfried cautioned against using filler and PB loads.

He developed a filler load of RL15 for Nitro Express and still uses and recommends it.

Here is a link to that thread and a copy of the article.
Filler thread!

The poly filler and RL-15 are an awesome combination. With the filler holding the powder against the primer you get the most uniform velocities you can ever imagine out of those NE cartridges.

mstarling congrats on your new double! It will serve you well for many years to come!

Rusty- The avg shot to shot difference in the Dacron filler load I described is less than 10fps! I have records of some with only 5 fps. My 470NE regulates to 1.5 inch R/L at 50 yrds.
Savage 99 seems to like to make up alot of "Facts" particularily about guns he has no experience with!. his style is extremely reminisent of our old Pal ToddE. Could he be Todd reincarnated? The BS factor is about the same 1 truth for 15 lies. Maybe I'm wrong, but I smell a troll!-Rob

Rusty,

Thanks for the link to the dacron story. Perhaps what I read was when dacron was used wrong then? If the theory is to fill the case and eliminate the airspace and one only used a small amout of dacron and that caused the effect described then it makes sense.

Kapox has been used by schuetzen shooters for a long time for cast bullet loads and I am using it in very small quantities for reduced loads in modern and old guns. I am sure there is more than one right answer to this but there are a lot of variables.

I wonder at some of the theories or methods when the main cause of mechanical failure is improper assembly. Of the firearms blow ups that I have seen all were caused by human error. And the two most common errors that I have seen are double charges and shooting a round with an obstruction in the bore which is usually another bullet.

Here is advice on dacron fillers from Bill Davis.

"One way this problem (air space in reduced loads) can be solved is to use a light tuft of fibrous filler, such as the Dacron intended for stuffing pillows, pressed lightly down on the powder charge. That proceedure is effective and often significantly improves the accuracy of certain cast bullet loads. Many handloaders have practiced this method for years with no untoward results. There are, however, a few instances in which loads employing such filler material have prduced ring-bulges in the gun chamber at the position corresponding to the base of the bullet in the assembled cartridge. For this reason, the general use of such fillers cannot be recommended."

Perhaps this is where I got the information that I posted on Dacron fillers. Like many things that work or don't work it's usually because they are not done right. If a full case of Dacron is the right answer and I hope that it is then good.

But for some to jump on a fellow member here because they are not using Dacron or say they read that it's not safe ringing wise seems wrong.

Just go ahead and point out that you have proven that a full case of Dacron is correct and a tuft is or may not be.

Mike, give me a call on Tuesday, I can help.

Aleko

Savage99,

Once again the Seyfried article dealt with Black Powder loads in a BP (Black Powder) Double Rifle. It did not deal with Nitro Express Double rifles. Any extrapolation that it did is incorrect.

For my 450/400 3 inch, I use the tuft, 1-1.5 grains, of Dacron pillow filling that you buy at the fabric stores. This is the filling that is recommended by Seyfried in his article, "Reloading the Nitro Express" in Handloader Dec'99. I have an emailable copy of that article that I can send to those who would like to read it.

Rusty,

I would to see that article. Thanks...Mike