Hi Gents,
I received my chambered barrel and action back on Tuesday so have been able to proceed with the project. I was able to finish inletting the barrel channel but once the barrel was in place the stock had a very chunky look.
Sort of like the barrel was laid into a 2 x4 so to clean up the look and lines I put in some relief grooves to follow the barrel and narrow the look. I didn't want to reshape the whole forend of the stock because I wanted the
stock to have a deep big bore look. The following pictures show the finished forend.




This photo shows the custom bolt by Chris Webber and Steve Markin of Markin and Webber in Kelowna B.C. as well as the three position safety by PME


These photos show the over all appearance to date. The gun weighs 10 lbs and has a magazine capacity of four. There will be a forward mounted Ashley peep installed on the quarter rib. The front sight is a NECG Master piece series.
I was hoping to get a barrel band front sight with the same height and the fiber optic bead but with barrel dimensions and and sight height the combination just didn't work out. The action is pillar bedded and the recoil lug area is steel bedded
as well as the second recoil lug area. The second recoil lug was made by Robgunbuilder and worked out perfectly. Thanks again Rob.



Take good care
470 Mbogo

[ 08-06-2002, 00:07: Message edited by: 470 Mbogo ]

Dave- Nice stockwork. This gun is going to be just too pretty to hunt with! Glad the second lug worked out well. Did the contour fit exactly or did you have to reshape? This is tough to machine without the barrel next to you. I have to say once again that IMHO the 470 MBOGO is a really good cartridge design and a great thumper. Mine doesn't nearly look as nice as yours, but it shoots real well and I would not be ashamed to show up in Africa with it at all. I guess Canuck and I are both awaiting our dies from Dave at CH4D. So far I'm just following your load development work and can't see any improvement on what you have already done. Again Kudos!-Rob

A fine looking rifle to be rightly proud of, sir!
Very nice presentation!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Hi Rob,
The lug worked out perfectly and was absolutely parrallel to the recoil lug on the 602 Bruno action. When I steel bedded the lug in and pulled it apart after the set up time the barrel pull staight up without a problem. Thanks again. I really like the look of the 470 Mbogo you built and the fact that it shoots so well is a bonus. You should take it to Africa and give it a good work out.
470 Mbogo

Even though 7000 ft-lbs is beyond my limit, it is a great looking rifle.

Also I like the idea of a straight bolt handle, which I imagine would be more reliable to operate in a hurry than the slanted variety. I'm not too fond of the back-swept one on my CZ.

Will

Super Job, all along the way, Dave. You obviously have a lot of talent in addition to knowing where to find what! You are hearby commissioned to build the Nickudu-Mbogo rifle. When can I expect delivery?

Mbogo:

Since you are apparently not going to add anything to this, I've got a question.

With dense wood like that, is a recoil lug really needed, beyond the typical one on the receiver? I just don't have any first hand experience on how much good cross-bolts and extra recoil lugs really do. Is it a foregone conclusion that the stock will split without them?

Will

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Will:
Hi Will,
It probably isn't neccessary with dense wood but I would hate to go to all that work and not put in the extra effort to make sure. With big bore recoil levels I think the cross bolts are mandatory. With the recoil being transfered back against the recoil lug and the butt of the stock against your shoulder the stock has a tendency to want to expand through the action area. The cross bolts prevent this expansion. This area is a weak spot due to the amount of material remove during inletting. There can be a problem with the area between the back of the magazine box and the trigger inletting because some trigger assemblies will leave less than a half inch of material in this location. The second recoil lug just helps the stock spread this force out more
evenly with the area of the second recoil lug being up to twice the area of the original lug. The area that the second recoil lug is inletted into also has substantially more wood to it than the original recoil lug area. The stock I built has the action pillar bedded with steel bed as well as both recoil lug area being steel bedded. The second recoil lug has to be 100 % parralel to the original recoil lug when bedding it, if it has and degree of taper towards the original recoil lug it will act as a dove tail and your barrelled action will be locked in solid. I haven't been ignoring anything just my computer has been locking up and has to be rebooted a little to often. Begining to think it would make a good target.

470 Mbogo

[ 08-07-2002, 06:58: Message edited by: 470 Mbogo ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nickudu:
Hi Nick,
I'll be all over it like a fat kid on a box of Smarties.
would Friday be fine.
470 Mbogo

470 Mbogo:
What a nice looking rifle,beautiful.
Dave:
In the discusion on the second rcoil lug,I'd like to know how it is mounted.
I don't see a barrel band is it dovetailed or in some way welded or silver soldered?
Reason I am asking,I finaly got my 500AS and eventhough I ordered it with a second recoil lug, my so so gun smith decided that it didn't need any. I found out when I pulled the gun from the stock. He claims that there is not enough barrel material for dovetailing and welding or soldering was not an option. So I guess I'll shot it as is and see what happens.
Regards Martin

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Martin@Hin:
Hi Martin,
Robgunbuilder made the second recoil lug. The lug is held on with a counter bored 8-40 screw. With both the lug and barrel tinned with Hi Force 44 solder heat is added to melt the solder which melts at around 400 degrees F and the screw is tightened creating a screwed and soldered bond. The low temperature Hi Force 44 is rated at 2800psi strength. With this meathod you don't have to apply excessive heat to the chamber area. The lug should be installed on the shank portion where the barrel is thickest. Best of luck with your 500 project. You'll have to post some pictures and let us know what you think of it overall.

470 Mbogo

Hi 470,

That rifle sure is shaping up nice! I really like the way you dealt with the thick forend to enhance esthetics and maintain the heft. Can't wait to see what the final product looks like once its blued etc.

Thanks for the advice on the Linebaugh bullets. I suspect the jackets will be designed for rapid expansion at Linebaugh or 480 Ruger velocities, but they should be good for reduced load plinking. The 400gr Speers are definately the right price at $10 US for 50!!

Take care,
Canuck

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Canuck:
Hi Canuck,
The biggest challenge was that quarter rib. I ordered a Dakota quarter rib through Brownells and contacted Pac-Nor for the barrel. They told me to hang on that they would order the quarter rib and contour the barrel to it. Sounded great. When I received the barrel and quarter rib and marked out where the receiver ring would be after the barrel was threaded and set, the quarter rib was about 5/8 of an inch shy of the receiver ring. I had to hand file the rib moving the contour forward the 5/8 of an inch. It's one of those jobs where you touch one side to get it to fit and the other goes for a dump. If it was straight angles it wouldn't be too bad. But it is a straight line followed by the shank cure followed by the barrel taper all while being curved on the underside. I used machinists blue and smoked the rib to get the final fit.
Take good care,
470 Mbogo

470,

5/8" is a long way to move that by hand. Sounds frustrating! Good thing it is a labour of love, eh?

Sure looks great now.

Canuck

Nice work 470. - Dan

470 Mbogo: Thanks for the info and yes I would like to post some pictures the problem is I got no idea how to do that.

Regards Martin

My experience with big bores above .458 winchester is that in nearly all instances you need a second recoil lug or the stock will eventually split. The only exception to this rule is the Mcmillan action which has a VERY large lug like a Rem 700. CZ550's and Mausers in particular need one. 470 MBOGO did a very thorough installation with dual crossbolts and a tapered second lug. The second recoil lugs are actually easy to install and really work. It was abit of a challenge to work out the full design, but now I can produce nearly any degree of taper and still match the barrel contour.Believe me when you finish crying over that dear piece of circassian walnut that just split, a second lug seems like great insurance.-Rob

Rob, I hear you and I told my smith to put one on but he just did not.
It has a SS Pac Nor barrel and the blueing looks like somesort of paint,therefore I am afraid to do anything with it now ,as in soldering.
The whole idea started with the fac stock having very nice wood and the fact that I will not put a scope on it.
The Fac.stock has just the right amount of drop for open sights.
So I drilled a 3/8" X 10" long hole trough the wrist into the stock and bedded a steel rod in it.installed 2 cross bolds and steel bedded the action.
I can only hope that this with the 26" long barrel (longer bullet time) combined with the Pac Nor brake will be enough.
If not I will have to install a second lug as per your design.
If it comes to that I was thinking to mill a small flat on the barrel for the lug to sit in giving it additional support,what do you think ?

First I have to take the floorplate to work and do some milling,then maybe next week I can fire form some brass.

Regards Martin

Martin- I personally don't like milling a flat in the barrel, ala CZ. I am always concerned about this affecting accuracy. I prefer contouring the lug to fit the barrel and then soldering or screwing it in place. You could just drill three holes in the lug and use 8X32 screws to hold it. I'm told that accraglass also works pretty well if you rough up the barrel surface and the lug. I like the soldered approach myself, but understand your situation.-Rob

Instead of a barrel lug I much prefer to have some of the recoil lug machined off on each side, then a metal strap or bar with a slot in it to go around the recoil lug and inletted and epoxied into the forend.

But I also like full free floating barrels and ease of barrel switching, so I don't have much choice.

Might be harder to do with actions with shallow recoil lug like Mauser actions. Every big bore I have owned has either been on a Wby Mark V, Model 70 and one Rem 700 in 416, and worked fine as it came from Remington with no second lug.

Mike

[ 08-09-2002, 23:23: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Rob/Mike,
Rob, the flat I was talking about would not be more than 80 thou deep. I think the 3 screws would work fine as well,as far as accraglass, the trick there may be to have one square inch or more glueing area. By the way the size of recoil lug I was thinking of would be 3/8 x 3/4. Is that similar to yours?

Mike, I like your idea of the stirup around the recoil lug. The problem with the 602 is that the lug is not very deep to start off with.

All in all, things to ponder, thanks for your input guys,I'll keep you informed.
Regards Martin

Martin,

I think the only problem with the shallow lug is in being a bit harder to work with. The area would not be a problem.

There is a bit of mucking about if you want to make sure the recoil lug lines up nice and square with the slot.

What I do when one is first made, is to have the forend and so on with plenty of clearance for the strap. I also have the action lined up with some points of bedding. I then glue the plate mainly to the back of the recoil lug and when set drop the lot in with some epoxy up at the forend end of the strip.

When cured i simply break the action free of the plae which is easy. I then pour an epoxy into and around the plate, which I have full of holes.

Once that is all done I just bed in the normal way and forget the plate for the rest of the rifles life with me.

If I rebed for some reason, I do not grind out the recoil lug area but rather just get a chisel or sharpened screw driver and heat it read hot and it just scrapes the epoxy away like a knife through butter.

It is a bit of mucking about to start with, but once the plate is in, then barrel changing etc. is just like it was a 222.

There are probably better ways or ideas of doing it, but so far for me over many years this has worked well enough that I have not ventured any further

Mike

Martin, who was the smith on that rifle? Not the boys at Premier, I hope (as I have some stuff there). By the way, how's your 500 A-square coming? - Dan

Rob/Mike:
Rob,our idea has certainly has its merits but like I said, since the barrel is blued already, Mikes alternative may be the way to go. Thanks

Mike,
I pulled the action off the stock today after steel bedding it. There may be a way to apply your idea.
The front action screw on a 602 is mounted in the bottom of the recoil lug, like I stated before the lug is not very high, but it has a round protruding shoulder which fits in a counter board
pillar like sleeve that mounts between the action and floor plate.
My interpretation of your idea would be to weld a quarter inch plate to this pillar like sleeve extending 2 inch to the front of the gun where it would be anchored in epoxy. I think I could make it work this way. Thanks again, I'll keep you informed,
Regards, Martin

Martin,

The amount of metal to metal contact required is not very big.

You see than on ealier Sakos whereby the round section of the cross bolt is what the recoil lug bears against. Same with the recoil plate in Ruger 375 and 416 Rigbys.

What are you are suggesting should be fine, as long as you can remove the action independent of the plate.

Just as a coincidence, I am about to bed a 416 Wby that has had the plate made and the recoil lug has been machined of the barrel. On Wbys the barrel lug is on the knox form as we call it. You might call it the barrel reinforce or chamber section.

I have never glued the plates in with Devcon or similar but I am sure it would be OK. Devcon is not really a good glue (some people who have not used release agent might disagree on this ).

I have always used epoxy glues that are semi liquid in form.

Apart from the obvious the advantages of being able to bed the rifle in way tyou wish, I always feel that the other plus of the plate is that you only have to do in once, irrespective of how many barrels you get in the future.

It also allows the barrel changing. This particular 416 is also having a 338/378 barrel for it and theplate systtem just makes it also so easy.

Good luck.

Mike

Dan: I wish it was not so but yes it was Premier,it's a bit of a kick in the behind story.
It was on this forum that I got the idea to build a 500 AS .
470Mbogo gave me some pointers and some smiths in B.C. and I should have followed his advice but instead Bill assured me they could do the job and since he worked on 2 of my friends rifles to satisfaction I gave it to him.
The deal was(Nov 2001) be done by Feb 2002 the work involved:cut threads and headspace the pre chambered Pac Nor barrel ,open the bold face,modify the extractor,floorplate and feedrails
install second recoil lug and blue barrel and two receiver peep sights.
In the last 3 months he had me come to the city 3 times (6 hour dive back and forth) to pick up the gun after conferming on the phone that it was ready only to find it was still in pieces on the bench.
Last month I told him I was coming in to pick up the gun and went there to pick it up ready or not.
On the phone I was told to take care when removing the action from the stock because of the tight fit from the second recoil lug and the glasbedding,and my rear sight could not be found as well as the thread protector cap for the brake.

At home the action fell out of the stock ,there was no glassbeding no second recoil lug, the floorplate and the feedrails where not done the bold face is opened up to much or the extractor ground to short because on my 416 I can remove the bold from the rifle with a shell held in place by the extractor not so on this one.

So here we are after almost one year a big pain in the ..... anyway lucky that I am a Machinist and can do most of this stuff at work (time permitting)I am happy the the headspacing is OK the rest I can deal with myself.

I still think Bill is a capable gun smith and a very nice guy(I have seen some nice work)but as far as business practice I don't know
My advise: be pepaired for a long wait and keep checking that all the work is done exactly to specs. because I believe once the work order is written up it is never looked at again.

So Dan sorry for the lenghty reply but I guess I had to vent to somebody and since you asked.

Regards Martin

Mike: this way it would stay removable since the plate would be welded to the pilar like sleeve that's mounted between the action and and the floorplate.
The only thing it would do is ,upon dismanteling the sleeve will stay behind as part of the recoil lug plate.
I think it will work,let you know.

Regards Martin

Yes Martin, I asked. Thanks for the information. I'm sorry about your experiance, I've never had problems with Bill's work, but he is slower then the second coming of Christ. I've got two rifles in there that have been there for almost four years now. It's not like I don't have lot's of rifles, so there's not much pressure, but still. I've been hearing about a smith in Rocky Mountain House lately, I'm going to try him on a project or two and see how it goes. I'll keep you posted, finding good smiths locally is such a pain. Hope the rifle turns out well, good luck. - Dan

Dan,470Mbogo had 2 smiths that did the big bore thing they where in BC I believe.
I can look it up if you like.
Also a friend deals with a smith in Dawson Creek.
I think there is a diff. between a gun smith and a DGR (controled feed) gun smith.

Regards Martin

I think you're right Martin. I'd be glad to get those addresses from you, if it's not to much trouble. The simple things I do myself, but some of the details required in a DGR are beyond me right now (my lathe /milling machine access is quite limited, these days). I'm also not comfortable with making a DGR that's 100% reliable in feeding. Take care - Dan

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dan belisle:
HI Dan,
You could try and get in touch with Bill Leeper here on the forum. He has big bore experience and built Canuck's 416 Taylor. Canuck is pretty impressed with the job as well as Bill's lathe work. The fellow I used for my 500 (Bill Crosby) has just moved and is not set up as of yet. He does really nice work but on his schedule. I'm just getting established with a new gunsmith also and it is funny the time it takes to get them on the same page. Ralph Martini used to work out of Dawson or Fort St. John but I can't remember his new location right now. If your interested I can find out but I would call Bill Leeper and Loomis your rifle to him.
Best of luck,
470 Mbogo

470 Mbogo;

Thanks for jumping in.

Regards Martin

Ralf Martini is at 250-417-2926 in Cranbrook, BC

Thanks 470, martin, and mauser98. Take care - Dan