quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
Quote
"I understand Michael's reticence on the 416's. He thinks of short range and "stopper", which leaves the 416 on the light side.

However, when one thinks about an all-around calibre the 416 really shines. It is and it does what people claim for the 375 little sisters. But the 416's do it better, especially if given enough capacity and powder to flatten the trajectory, like with Rigby cases.

So I have to say that there is something satisfying about the 416Rigby. Comfortable and authoritative for one-rifle hunting from 40 to 400 yards."

416 Tanzan, I've never had any problems killing anything with the .375 H&H with 270 or 300 grain bullets and that goes for big or small game at far and near ranges. I still do not understand how a large bore rifle can be "better" at long range accurate shot placement (for someone like me)than something with a little less recoil. If you are insensitive to recoil, go for a .458 Lott with 350 to 400 grain bullets. More velocity and bigger hole than the .416. Better long range capability. Then go for 500 - 550 grain bullets for stopping anything. Again, if recoil does not bother you, the .458 Lott is a much better all-arounder than any .416.

Thanks,

jfm

JFM, what you are missing in this discussion is that the BC of a 400gr 416 bullet is usually higher than the BC of a 300gr 375 bullet. Therefore, even though the nominal velocity of both rifles give the muzzle velocity edge to the 375 (about 150fps), at distance, the 416 is often traveling faster than the 375. This results in a very similar long range trajectory between the two calibers with the edge going to the 416 as range increases.

The same BC comparison cannot be made with the 458 caliber vs. the 416.

What Tanz is saying about the Rigby specifically, is that the nominal 2400fps, which with the higher BC than a 375 will equal its trajectory, can be easily exceeded thereby creating a significantly flatter shooting rifle with the 416 Rigby, with a larger frontal area and heavier bullet. It's just everything the 375 is but more of it. Plains game at a distance, not needed. But with the same trajectory as the 375 you at least have an equal performing all round PG gun. But where the 416 really shines over the 375, is close in work with DG. So you have an equal PG rifle but a much more effective DG rifle / stopper if necessary.

Yes, recoil is heavier but the 375's recoil is heavier than a 30/06. So what? I would be willing to bet that you were a bit apprehensive of your 375 when you first got it. But practice and familiarity have now changed that. The same holds true for the 416. It's a matter of range time with the weapon. There is nothing magic about the 375's recoil level. It's just that so many have forced themselves to become tolerant of it because it is the minimun caliber required. If the 416 were designated as the minimum, (as 40+ was in many places for awhile), everyone would be saying the 416 is the magic caliber offering the appropriate killing power with tolerable recoil.

I used to think my 416 was a hard kicking rifle until I became proficient with the 500NE. Now the 416 is easy. I'm stepping up now to the 577NE. I'm confident that when I become proficient with it, and I will, the 500NE will become a pussycat as well.

But it's all good fun, shooting big things with the big bores. Wouldn't you agree?

Todd, I have a feeling the 577 will become your favorite....it is mine.

Todd,
To keep it simple:
I owned both a .375 H&H magnum and a .416 Remington magnum at the same time and experimented with both quite a bit before settling on the .375 H&H magnum for all around use. I am by no means a theoretical ballistician; just a guy that looks at field results and the following is what I found.
**********************************************
1) 270 grain .375 caliber bullets @ a little over 2800 fps were flatter shooting than 400 grain .416 caliber bullets at 2400 fps.
2).270 grain .375 caliber bullets @ a little over 2800 fps were also flatter shooting than 350 grain .416 caliber bullets @ 2600 fps.
3) Ranges were 100, 200 and 300 yards and .375 was flatter at all ranges.
4) I was not as accurate with the .416 as I was with the .375 as it produced too much recoil for me. Perhaps I should have been practicing with a 9 pound .50 BMG so the .416 RM would have felt like a .22 LR. Either way, the .416 kicked too much for me and accuracy was way off at longer ranges. Your experiences may be different than mine but I know my limitations.
Now, if you are talking about the Rigby shooting 400 grain bullets @ 2700 fps or so, then I can see the .416 being a better long range setup than the .375. But, then my long range shot placement would go to hell in a hand basket real quick with that kind of recoil. I'll take the .375 for everything up to buffalo and out past 300 yards. I'll bring the .470 NE for dangerous game up close.

Thanks for your response,

jfm

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
Todd,
To keep it simple:
I owned both a .375 H&H magnum and a .416 Remington magnum at the same time and experimented with both quite a bit before settling on the .375 H&H magnum for all around use. I am by no means a theoretical ballistician; just a guy that looks at field results and the following is what I found.
**********************************************
1) 270 grain .375 caliber bullets @ a little over 2800 fps were flatter shooting than 400 grain .416 caliber bullets at 2400 fps.
2).270 grain .375 caliber bullets @ a little over 2800 fps were also flatter shooting than 350 grain .416 caliber bullets @ 2600 fps.
3) Ranges were 100, 200 and 300 yards and .375 was flatter at all ranges.
4) I was not as accurate with the .416 as I was with the .375 as it produced too much recoil for me. Perhaps I should have been practicing with a 9 pound .50 BMG so the .416 RM would have felt like a .22 LR. Either way, the .416 kicked too much for me and accuracy was way off at longer ranges. Your experiences may be different than mine but I know my limitations.
Now, if you are talking about the Rigby shooting 400 grain bullets @ 2700 fps or so, then I can see the .416 being a better long range setup than the .375. But, then my long range shot placement would go to hell in a hand basket real quick with that kind of recoil. I'll take the .375 for everything up to buffalo and out past 300 yards. I'll bring the .470 NE for dangerous game up close.

Thanks for your response,

jfm

Well of course different opinions are what keeps the stories around the campfire lively, eh?

Firstly, I was countering your logic of the 458 Lott being a better long range round than the 416 Rigby based on the statement of the 416 being better than the 375. There is a BC issue there that applies to the 375 / 416 comparison that doesn't apply to the 416 / 458.

I would agree with you that a 270gr .375 will be flatter than the 400gr .416 but that is a little bit of apples to oranges. Even so, what are we talking about at say, 200 yards? 2 inches? Max!! That's still within the ability to hold dead on with proper Point Blank Range scope set up.

However, I really like the 350 TSX in the 416Rigby. I get 2750fps with mine so I think the edge has to go to the 416 even over your 270gr 375 load at 2800fps. Actually very similar velocities, but a better BC with the 416. There is really no way these two loads are not going to be very similar trajectory wise. I'm not sure what you can get out of the 416 Rem vs. the Rigby in the 350gr. That may have something to do your results.

But again, I'm not saying the 416 gives you a better long range PG rifle as the extra umphf isn't needed for PG. But for reaching out on a big Brown Bear that is trying to make his escape, I know the Rigby gets the edge. Then up close and personal on something like Buff or Ele, there really is no comparison. I agree with you that the 470NE is even better for up close DG. I'm with you there as I'm a confirmed Double Rifle Nut! Getting worse every day as a matter of fact. But in this discussion, I'm speaking more along the lines of what makes the better all around / 1 gun option. So many folks give this title to the 375. I still think the reason is a bit arbitrary in that it is the established minimum so guys are willing to shoot it enough to get comfortable with it. Make the minimum a 416 and you would have the same result. Guys would practice enough to become proficient with it because it would be the required minimum. I give the allround title to the 416 for the simple reason that there is nothing the 375 can do that the 416 cannot. The same cannot be said the other way around. The only negative on the 416 is the added recoil.

On recoil, I suppose some are more sensitive to it than others. I still think it is a matter of practice and what you become accustomed to. A mindset if you will. But in fact, I just don't think the 416 kicks that bad. And really, when was the last time you felt recoil when shooting at game? My 17 year old son agrees and he is a firm fan now of the Rigby. My 22 year old son differs. He just can't get comfortable with the Rigby (because he won't shoot it enough) but shoots the hell out of the 375. The two of them have completely different mindsets however. The older, is satisfied once he finds something that works and doesn't see a need to progress beyond that. The younger is always ready to take on a new challenge. He's been begging me to let him shoot the 500NE but I've held off so far. I really don't think he's ready for that one yet!! It boils down to whatever floats your boat in the end as it is all about having fun.

Seems like you and I have had this discussion before?!!

Hey Biebs! I have to agree with you about the 577. Can't wait to get my hands on it. Still on lay away for a couple more weeks but I've got 40 rounds already loaded and ready to go. Got to get worked up to it quickly for my Oct Tuskless and Buff Bull hunt!! Trouble is, right now I'm still recovering from hand surgery to fix one of the broken fingers I suffered in my fall down the mountain during my New Zealand Tahr hunt. The fractured ribs seem to be OK at this point but I can't make a fist yet with the right hand.

Here is a picture from two days ago:



I'm thinking there is plenty of time for recovery yet however. If it doesn't heal in time, I can always take my little 416 Rigby pop gun instead! I'm not sure I could stand being called "Bolt Trash" however. The shame would be too much to bare!

Nice job with the sutures, Todd.

Now you can extend that pinky properly when drinking tea with the 375 crowd.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Nice job with the sutures, Todd.

Now you can extend that pinky properly when drinking tea with the 375 crowd.

That's the nice thing about the 416 Doc. Drinking with the 375 crowd, extending the pinky is mandatory. With the 416 crowd, it's optional!!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Nice job with the sutures, Todd.

Now you can extend that pinky properly when drinking tea with the 375 crowd.

That's the nice thing about the 416 Doc. Drinking with the 375 crowd, extending the pinky is mandatory. With the 416 crowd, it's optional!!

And with the 470 crowd it is considered effeminate!

465H&H

Todd, you gotta bring the 577! If necessary, tie a string to the trigger and pull it with your teeth. :-)

I do like the 416Rigby a lot too but right now, my 425WR is the most gratifying. Probably because it has been the most intimidating for me to load.

375 H&H. If I need anything larger I'd go with another 416 Rem or 458 Lott.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Nice job with the sutures, Todd.

Now you can extend that pinky properly when drinking tea with the 375 crowd.

In good fun, and good taste, and way good in general!

The question was about 'BIG".......
My favorite is 585HE, even though I spend a
lot of time playing and experimenting with a lot bigger.Ed

The big bore rifle/cartridge combo that has really impressed me is my 458WM/Browning Safari.
1) I have shot this rifle in +100F @ 2200 FPS (500 Gr Hornady) 3 times in rapid succession; NO STICKY BOLT issues!!! With AA 2230. The 500 grain load I settled on is about 2160 - 2170 FPS.
2) My favorite is 450 Swifts and 450 solids @ 2260 FPS again very reliable in +100F ambient temps.
This rifle is extremely accurate, ultra reliable, 3 position safety, controlled round feed, swings like a bird gun,light enough to carry all day and reasonably priced.
I own 416's which are probably more versatile, 458 Lott that shoots a bit harder and a 470 double. All of which I have considerably more money in than the 458WM. It truly matches the old british cartridges (450 NE & 470 NE)in power and penetration, more efficient, less expensive to reload or buy new, more available in a pinch.
Modern powders have reserected this fine cartridge.

EZ

I have only one big bore and that is a CZ 550 458 Lott so I guess that‘s my favourite !

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
I understand Michael's reticence on the 416's. He thinks of short range and "stopper", which leaves the 416 on the light side.

However, when one thinks about an all-around calibre the 416 really shines. It is and it does what people claim for the 375 little sisters. But the 416's do it better, especially if given enough capacity and powder to flatten the trajectory, like with Rigby cases.

So I have to say that there is something satisfying about the 416Rigby. Comfortable and authoritative for one-rifle hunting from 40 to 400 yards.

Yes I agree, and for anything under 150 yards I like my 505 Gibbs too, but I still shoot a lot more with my 338. It's great to have the choice!