I'm going to start this thread and then I'm going to duck because I suspect things are about to fly my direction. Anyway, here goes...What about a Remington Mod. 700 in .300 rum conversion to a .404? I know everyone wants crf, but the 700 is a great action that's been around a long, long time and is used for many custom rifles. Plus, it's about half the price of a Win. mod. 70. Your opinions, please.
kh

Bolt face would need to be opened for the 404 cartridge rim and a Sako or AR-15 style extractor installed.

Other than that I suspect it would be a re-barrel and go.

The new triggers in the Remington's are just fine, but the old ones cost Remington millions in law suits.

Get a Winchester. Saving $400 just isn't worth the difference.. and btw, some dude just offered you one.

you're saving more then 400 arent you? I find RUM's around here right in the 500$ ballpark...the Win 70 CRF's I've been lucky enough to see online have all been aroudn 1200-1500. Thats a big chunk of change especially if you're justing using the action.

What would be the total cost of this custom job? Wouldn't it be easier to buy a Rifle already chambered in 404? for example, the CZ rifle is very accurate and sturdy.

I have quite a few Rem 700 rifles and that 700 action is a real good action in my rifles.

Of course you can use a 700...especially if you have one already....but a win classic in 300 rum is the way to go. Just watch the auctions sites.

quote:

Originally posted by McCray:
Bolt face would need to be opened for the 404 cartridge rim and a Sako or AR-15 style extractor installed.

Other than that I suspect it would be a re-barrel and go.

Unless I'm much mistaken, a RUM bolt face is just about exactly right for a 404, in which case it would only involve a rebarrel, everything else should work pretty good.
Steve

Ok, I am going to say what a lot of guys are thinking, I think. This my opinion and I realize not worth much but....404s should be on Mausers. There. I have several custom rifles built on 700 Remingtons and Mausers. To me there is nothing worse than seeing a classic caliber put into a modern action, kind like putting the 9.3x62 into a stainless Winchester with sythetic stock. Whats the point? With an action like that I would built a .338. Take a look on the Australian forum at the 9.3 custom Mannlicher thread. Thats a classic round in a classic action, gorgeous. Personally if I had a relatively modern action I would use a relatively modern round. For a 700 like yours, put a 375 RUM, .338, etc. or something in it. Build the 404 in a nice Mauser or CZ action in the classic style. I think I can hear the poison pens scratching!

quote:

Unless I'm much mistaken, a RUM bolt face is just about exactly right for a 404, in which case it would only involve a rebarrel, everything else should work pretty good.
Steve

The RUM rim diameter is rebated slightly to match the belted magnum rim diameter. The Jeffery rim is just enough larger to not fit. Remington made the brass fit the bolt so they didn't have to inventory another bolt face diameter.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum Hunter1:
Ok, I am going to say what a lot of guys are thinking, I think. This my opinion and I realize not worth much but....404s should be on Mausers. There. I have several custom rifles built on 700 Remingtons and Mausers. To me there is nothing worse than seeing a classic caliber put into a modern action, kind like putting the 9.3x62 into a stainless Winchester with sythetic stock. Whats the point? With an action like that I would built a .338. Take a look on the Australian forum at the 9.3 custom Mannlicher thread. Thats a classic round in a classic action, gorgeous. Personally if I had a relatively modern action I would use a relatively modern round. For a 700 like yours, put a 375 RUM, .338, etc. or something in it. Build the 404 in a nice Mauser or CZ action in the classic style. I think I can hear the poison pens scratching!

I agree partialy....a mauser would be the best choice. But Winchester did offer this caliber from their custom shop IIRC....that's good enough for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum Hunter1:
Ok, I am going to say what a lot of guys are thinking, I think. This my opinion and I realize not worth much but....404s should be on Mausers. There. I have several custom rifles built on 700 Remingtons and Mausers. To me there is nothing worse than seeing a classic caliber put into a modern action, kind like putting the 9.3x62 into a stainless Winchester with sythetic stock. Whats the point? With an action like that I would built a .338. Take a look on the Australian forum at the 9.3 custom Mannlicher thread. Thats a classic round in a classic action, gorgeous. Personally if I had a relatively modern action I would use a relatively modern round. For a 700 like yours, put a 375 RUM, .338, etc. or something in it. Build the 404 in a nice Mauser or CZ action in the classic style. I think I can hear the poison pens scratching!

I could agree, but I won't. I built mine on a M70. The cost of doing one on a Mauser would be significantly higher & the results not necessarily better IMO. Sure, inlimited funds, why not, but if one wants a good 404j to hunt DG with, nothing wrong w/ a MRC or M70, which I would prefer over a CZ. As to the M700, why? While you can certainly make it work, I would not be 100% comfy w/ a M700 for DG rifle & I don;t see the 404j as a deer/elk rifle, but if it floats your boat, go for it. The diff. in rim diam. is so slight that it is likely to work w/o mods, but the face could be opened ever so slightly to make it work. I have even used 375RUM brass to make 404jeffery brass for practice ammo. Works fine.

Ok, Ok, if pressed I would concede to a M-70. But not in stainless!

While I prefer CRF actions and while I have yet to hunt DG, if I had a Remmy 404J, I'd take it buffalo hunting without hesitation. My first 3 centerfire rifles were Rem 700's and I have an immense amount of respect for them. Now it's my turn to duck.

Minor boltface changes are necessary( 5 minutes assuming your gunsmith knows what hes doing. CRF vs Pf a matter of opinion only. Hunted Africa 6 times with a .300RUM for antelopes and a whole lot of critters died. If the gun is a stone stock reliable feeder who cares? if not dont take it. Seen terrible feeders from the most rerspected gunsmiths in the world. My guess is your .404 will be more reliable than most.-Rob

Make everyone happy and build yourself a 404 RUM lol kind of like a 404J improved, you'd get the same (possibly better with less taper and sharper shoulders) and you wouldn't have to open the bolt face at all. Then that way since its not a true classic, no one will give you any guff about building it on any action you want. Heck, it could even be stainless with a plastic stock....now to go wait in the corner as the dirty looks start to build up lmao

quote:

Originally posted by McCray:

quote:

Unless I'm much mistaken, a RUM bolt face is just about exactly right for a 404, in which case it would only involve a rebarrel, everything else should work pretty good.
Steve

The RUM rim diameter is rebated slightly to match the belted magnum rim diameter. The Jeffery rim is just enough larger to not fit. Remington made the brass fit the bolt so they didn't have to inventory another bolt face diameter.

I always reckon its not a wasted day if I've learnt something. That can be mine today.
Thanks.
Steve

quote:

Originally posted by MileHighShooter:
Make everyone happy and build yourself a 404 RUM lol kind of like a 404J improved, you'd get the same (possibly better with less taper and sharper shoulders) and you wouldn't have to open the bolt face at all. Then that way since its not a true classic, no one will give you any guff about building it on any action you want. Heck, it could even be stainless with a plastic stock....now to go wait in the corner as the dirty looks start to build up lmao

Works for me, just didn't have the courage to suggest it.
Steve

Loved the comments. Slightly, but not exactly, what I expected. Thought I would get worlds of grief about the feed. Here's my opinion, for what little it's worth: I want this rifle to hunt cape buffalo. I expect to be backed by a PH who has a "stopping rifle" to keep my pink butt out of trouble. I also expect to make a reasonablely good shot on the first try, as most of us do, so a tramp through the bush won't be required. If it is (God forbid) then I will have only a small chance of having to fend off a pissed buff without proper backing. If we both miss, well, I'm old and my kids are grown, so put me out for the hyenas.

Kevin
I built one 458 Lott using a Left Hand Rem 700. I used this action because at the time it was the only game in town for a lefty. I made and installed one of our magazine boxes and followers that allows 4 rounds down and is not a drop box. It took some real effort to get this action to function properly without having a round roll out from under the rails and release to soon. If I recall it was 2 day job. At that time you could still get basic brass from Barnes and with some of the older production 500gr Hornady FMJ's and a special run of 500gr Swift Soft points the OAL allowed the canalure crimped rounds about a .050 gap between the front of the bullet nose and the front inside edge of the magazine box. Done in this manner the payload of the magazine would not get a running jump under recoil and beat up the bullet noses nor the front of the magazine box. I bring this up as the 404 will be to short and generate to much recoil to prevent what I have just related. We just finished a 404 Jeffery that was made on a Left Hand Model-70 that had one of our boxes again and was made to allow a minimal gap between the bullet nose and the front of the magazine box. This may sound trivial but it is something to consider. I would look into a different action that does not have a 3.700 ID for the inside magazine length. A Current Mod-70 would be a good choice if you can get a proper box. Perhaps the Winchester factory RUM magazine would work, others have had good luck apparently.

This Lott mentioned above has accounted for a number of Elephants, buffalo and a Lion. The client has never mentioned any failures in feeding or extraction and it has the Std Remington extractor. The rifle has been shot with full power loads hundreds and hundreds of times without a hitch. Call me crazy but that's all we had to work with at the time.

The 404 Jeffery already has minimum case body taper, the RUM cases are an "un-improvement" of that.

404 Jeffery overall taper and case capacity loss comes from the long, sloping ~8.5-degree shoulder and long neck.

This could be "improved" on with a greater shoulder angle and shorter neck.

You would end up with a .416 Dakota necked up to .423.

The .416 Dakota is close to .404 Jeffery performance, even though slightly handicapped by the slightly smaller diameter bullet, .416 instead of .423. Necking it up to .423 makes so little sense it is not worth it.

I abandoned the .423/.338 Lapua Mag (2.7" case) because it can only equal the 404 Jeffery, it cannot beat it in any way.

The 404 Jeffery is simply good as it gets. No messing with its design is practical, just fun.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
This could be "improved" on with a greater shoulder angle and shorter neck.

You would end up with a .416 Dakota necked up to .423.

Close Doc ( I can't believe you forgot this one) but you'd get a 423 Van Horn.

Didn't forget it, knew of it, it is just another of Gil Van Horn's gazillion obscure wildcats, brilliant hermit and artiste that he is. Just easier to converse in terms of more common cartridges. Yep, .416 Dakotas are everywhere. Woo hoo.

Notice the .423 Van Horn shoulder diameter is the same as the 404 Jeffery. Gil could not improve much there, eh?
Shorter neck and sharper shoulder, is insignificant.
The sharper shoulder will reduce case capacity unless the neck is shortened, shoulder moved farther out, as Gil did.
Pretty much a wash.
No significant improvement over the 404 Jeffery.

No significant improvement, means, that once again the gun builders from long ago knew what they were doing.


I went through a wildcatting phase and realized the "wheel was done right the first time!"

However there are some niches left and are being filled by you, Dave and el jeffe. The Mbogo family with it's low pressure and lot's of thump are most impressive!
el jeffe's medium magnums give a fellow with a 98, or equal length, big hitting power with little modifications.
I don't feel as you guys are WCing as much as giving more options.

Good shooting Doc
Bruce

.366torque,
I can hardly wait until you publish your exhaustive biography of Gil Van Horn, complete with catalog of all his masterpiece rifles and wildcat specs, fully illustrated.

Somebody needs to get that for posterity, before Gil passes on.
You Da Man!

The only reason the "improved" version was brought up, was as a joke because everyone poo-poo'd the OP's idea of using *gasp* something other then a M70 CRF for his build. Once it was "improved" it was no longer a "classic" so then no one would give him grief about putting it in a R700 action lol all in good fun gents

MileHighShooter,
Do you have a link or some reference to Cooper supporting Obama?

If they did, they deserve bankruptcy.

Where is the smoking gun they shot themselves in the foot with?

Thanks to another forum member, I have seen the USA Today quotes of Dan Cooper.
Sorry I missed that for so long.

Dan Cooper is an IDIOT!!!
A boycott of Cooper Arms or whatever the hell he calls it is definitely in order!!!

building one from scratch is a total waste of time and your obviously limited funds since you are looking to sacrifice a rifle for an action.

why don't you just sell some junk and buy a ready to fire cz ??

or is that too simple an answer.

"built from home with loving hands " rifles don't sell worth a damn. and ones by "unknown " gunsmiths are the same. and you may never get the feed working right. save money - buy the cz

quote:

Originally posted by MileHighShooter:
The only reason the "improved" version was brought up, was as a joke because everyone poo-poo'd the OP's idea of using *gasp* something other then a M70 CRF for his build. Once it was "improved" it was no longer a "classic" so then no one would give him grief about putting it in a R700 action lol all in good fun gents

Please support the boycott of Cooper Firearms, who announced to the public their support of Barack Obama!

Cooper Arms board of directors has asked for and received Dan Cooper's resignation over his support of Obama. I'd say Cooper Arms deserves our support rather than a boycott.

For others interested, here's a link to the article: Cooper Firearms co-founder Dan Cooper resigns over Obama support

I set up my boycot website the minute I found out what was going on.

Ftondrus -

Buying a CZ in 404J is a 2800$ deal. The OP could probably have a R700 RUM converted much cheaper, I think that was his intention.

Dan Cooper:
What percentage of profits of Cooper Arms, Inc. does this unrepentant sinner still own? Majority stockholder still?
Good time to sell before it becomes worthless, eh?
Hardly what could be called "Unintended Consequences."
He has his head so far up his politics that obvious consequences are just impossible for him to appreciate:





I see someone is deleting other threads here related to this. Maybe this one will be locked soon too?

Buying a CZ in .404 is not out of the question, but it will need some work done. I can get one for $2100 and spend another $400 to slick it up, cross pin it and be good to go. I am currently playing with a friend's CZ in .416 Rigby. He had work done on it and now it won't eject worth spit. The idea is to see if I can get a DG rifle without going over $2000. Still looking. Enjoying the comments.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
.366torque,
I can hardly wait until you publish your exhaustive biography of Gil Van Horn, complete with catalog of all his masterpiece rifles and wildcat specs, fully illustrated.

Somebody needs to get that for posterity, before Gil passes on.
You Da Man!

Thank you very much for the encouragement and kind words. However, seeing as you are my editor and have on hand my current notes, I believe you are setting yourself up for a let down.
Not much I'm afraid, but who knows a wealth of info can be around the corner.

Kevin -

if you're not dead set on the 404J (I'm a huge fan and would love one, but it seems to be one of the most expensive and hard to find choices for a build) then you have hundreds of other cartridges to choose from.

quote:

Originally posted by kevin henderson:
Buying a CZ in .404 is not out of the question, but it will need some work done. I can get one for $2100 and spend another $400 to slick it up, cross pin it and be good to go. I am currently playing with a friend's CZ in .416 Rigby. He had work done on it and now it won't eject worth spit. The idea is to see if I can get a DG rifle without going over $2000. Still looking. Enjoying the comments.

With apologies to the CRF purists, you can buy a 375RUM on a Rem700 cheap and have money left over for trophy fees with $2000.
http://www.gunsamerica.com/976675324/Guns-For-Sale/Gun-...inless_375RUM_Ne.htm

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:

quote:

Originally posted by kevin henderson:
Buying a CZ in .404 is not out of the question, but it will need some work done. I can get one for $2100 and spend another $400 to slick it up, cross pin it and be good to go. I am currently playing with a friend's CZ in .416 Rigby. He had work done on it and now it won't eject worth spit. The idea is to see if I can get a DG rifle without going over $2000. Still looking. Enjoying the comments.

With apologies to the CRF purists, you can buy a 375RUM on a Rem700 cheap and have money left over for trophy fees with $2000.
http://www.gunsamerica.com/976675324/Guns-For-Sale/Gun-...inless_375RUM_Ne.htm

Exactly the reason I have been looking at the 375 RUM lately...found a used one (looks to have about 3 shots in it lol "ow.....OWWWWW....OH SCREW THIS GUN!" with a Leopold for aroudn 500$. Even with a muzzle brake, Sako extractor and maybe a new stock...still probably under the price of anything else comparable by quite a bit. Every dollar saved is a dollar towards a hunt!

The local gunshop has a Rem Ti in 375 RUM, going cheap. Only fired 2 shots...

I'll stick with my new 470 Capstick.