I'm not really seeing much difference here. I'm looking at both and trying to come up with a reason to chose one over the other. Thoughts?

Ruger, Rem Mag or B&M--get the RIFLE that fits you and your hunting-

Nothing you shoot will ever know the difference between the cartridges.

I'm sure the B&M is out of my price range. I have options I can get into for half that. Ruger options and rem mag options.

Get whichever you like. Each has their merits and the differences in performance shouldn't be that discernible on game. If you have an action sitting around, I'd see which would be more cost effective to build on it.

I TRIED to buy a new 416 ruger alaskan today. They seem to be all gone.
I'm waiting for a guy to get back to me on a used but never fired 416 ruger alaskan. I'm losing hope on this particular model.
I want to be driving a .416 caliber bullet pretty fast and pretty accurate by next years hunting season.

I've heard it said that the 416 Hoffman is a superior
cartridge to the very similar 416 Rem Magnum.

quote:

Originally posted by frank4570:
I TRIED to buy a new 416 ruger alaskan today. They seem to be all gone.
I'm waiting for a guy to get back to me on a used but never fired 416 ruger alaskan. I'm losing hope on this particular model.
I want to be driving a .416 caliber bullet pretty fast and pretty accurate by next years hunting season.

The 416s have interested me for 20+ years, ever since the articles of the late 80's. The 416Ruger Alaskan is a pretty nice, inexpensive package, and I'm pretty sure that you'll pick one up within a month of looking.

As to choices between 416Ruger and 416Rem, everything boils down to actions and the rifle that you want to carry. For standard length actions, then the 416 Ruger is the choice. Ballistically, it duplicates the 416 Rem, but in the shorter package.

However, if you start to look at magnum length actions, then should look at the 416 Rigby. I don't see a need for the 416 Remmie, since it doesn't make the best use of the long action. For that, you will want the 416Rigby and can expect to handload 350 grain .416" bullets to over 2800 fps, over 6000 ftlbs. The Remmie can't do that, only the Rigby, Weatherby, and some wildcats. Since you are looking for a cost-effective solution, the CZ 550 magnum in 416 Rigby naturally comes to mind. I've owned three. They may need a little tinkering on feeding and bedding, but I have been fully satisfied.

So for the money, either get a 416Ruger Alaskan, expecting 2550-2650 fps with a 350 grain bullet,
or else a CZ 416Rigby, and handload to 2800-2850 fps.

Happy shooting. They are very satisfying off the bench and on game.

Last year's 35 lb. oribi, 201 yards, 416 Rigby.




below, same oribi, entrance wound, after one day on smoking pile.




Below, 350 grain TSX, .416" bullet recovered from hartebeest, 3/4 presentation, inside front leg impact (like oribi above), 180 yards, 416 Rigby, 2825 fps muzzle. Cool case.




Below, 350 grain TSX, .416" bullet recovered from buffalo, face shot, 70 yards. 2825fps muzzle. Cool case. Both of these recovered bullets and cases were shot in late morning, 85-90 F. degree weather.



You've got to like the way the buffalo bullet 'took one for team' and truly got smashed up, dropping mbogo on the spot.

416's are pretty nice walk-about-the-forest guns in Africa and should work on elk or big bear.

Thanks for the input 416Tanzan, that's very helpful.
The pics are awesome.

One is shorter than the other. Other than that, they are about equal.

Keith

Having used all three 416's; the Ruger, Remington and the Rigby, I can tell you that in the field, weight, price and practicality offer more benefits than nostalgia.

You won't see any differences in performance in the field.

Ruger was showing their new, wood stock 416 African at SHOT and say that they will have the stainless 416 guide rifle back in two months.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Having used all three 416's; the Ruger, Remington and the Rigby, I can tell you that in the field, weight, price and practicality offer more benefits than nostalgia.

You won't see any differences in performance in the field.

Ruger was showing their new, wood stock 416 African at SHOT and say that they will have the stainless 416 guide rifle back in two months.

your statement on Ruger, Rem, and Rigby applies to factory loads. When it comes to handloads the Rigby has the capacity for an extra 200+ fps and an extra 1000+ ftlbs. over the Ruger and Remington. That is a significant upgrade and should be weighed by anyone carrying a long magazine 416.

I shoot a 416 Rem Mag Win 70 and my wife a 416 Rigby in Ruger No 1. No difference in terminal performance, we have shot animals only with bullets, not with a cartridge case yet.

What I love about the Remmie is the slimness of the Win 70 magazine compared to the CZ, which is uncomfortable for my small hands. I would choose a rifle first and then shoot the 416 calibre it comes in.

quote:

Originally posted by Balule:
I shoot a 416 Rem Mag Win 70 and my wife a 416 Rigby in Ruger No 1. No difference in terminal performance, we have shot animals only with bullets, not with a cartridge case yet.

What I love about the Remmie is the slimness of the Win 70 magazine compared to the CZ, which is uncomfortable for my small hands. I would choose a rifle first and then shoot the 416 calibre it comes in.

I would agree that the rifle may determine the calibre, especially with the 416 Ruger. And I truly applaud your wife in handling a full woman's cartridge.
That may inspire my 120 lb. wife, who has stayed with 270s and 338s so far.

However, the comparison on terminal performance misses another point above.
When handloaded to its potential, the 416Rigby is a much flatter shooting, more powerful round than the 416 Ruger and 416 Remmie. Discussions often overlook this, and that perspective is valid for factory/SAAMI loads. The handloaded potential is on the order of comparing a 30-06 to a 300 Weatherby, producing over 200fps and 1000 foot pounds more energy. Most would consider the 300 Weatherby and even the 300 WinMag to produce different terminal ballistics from the 30-06.

However, since I agree that the bullet is what does the work, in most cases there will be little difference between the three .416 rounds, just like there is normally little difference in the 30 cal rounds. Each group uses the same bullets. The 416Rigby is just capable of doing the same work as the Ruger or Remmie a little farther out, or hitting a little harder up close.

Tanzan,

I'm in complete agreement with you. Rigby is the way forward IMO. My rifle is also a CZ but with a MG Arms synthetic stock. The MG stock is significantly slimmer than the original CZ stock and really makes for a comfortable carry. I also had the barrel shortened by 2". In all, the modifications took nearly 2 lbs off the rifle. It's a dream machine to hunt with, although a bit of a beast on the bench. But then again, I don't shoot it on the bench except for load development. And yes, you can load it up, especially with the 350 TSX!

Just another thing to ponder, a CZ in 416 Rem holds 5+1. That is more than you will get for a Ruger or Rigby.

Tanzan

Point taken on the potential of the Rigby case, there is no arguing that. I haven't had any need for more power than factory or even slightly less ballistics.

I think the girls often shoot the big bores easier than big men, my wife weighs much the same. She considers her 416 THE rifle to go.

She also has a 8lb 500NE, but where she shoots the 416 with impunity (up to 18 shots) the 500 is for restricted use. To be fair a 8lb 500 is a force to be reckoned with by anyone.

The more animals I see shot the more dark terminal ballistics and the difference between calibres become to me. Last year we had 5 DRT impalas shot with the lowly 308 Win but 2 minor tracking jobs with 2 impalas shot with the 416s.

Todd

I am sure jealous about that MG stock and your gun in general, would love that stock on my CZ 375. Do you have the factory bottom metal in that gun?

quote:

Sevens:
Just another thing to ponder, a CZ in 416 Rem holds 5+1.

Yes, that might be a consideration. But I tend to plan around the first shot. For me the first shot is the shot that counts and there is no guarantee of a second shot. If, at the first shot, a buffalo disappears into the bush, I have just put everything into that first shot. I want the best bullet possible, and I will certainly be glad for an extra 1000 ft lbs to drive that bullet.

For less dangerous game, the argument is the same. It is the first shot that is in the hunter's control and that needs to be the best. If someone gets an opportunity for more that 3+1, then they probably have time to reload the magazine, too.

quote:

Originally posted by Balule:
Tanzan

Point taken on the potential of the Rigby case, there is no arguing that. I haven't had any need for more power than factory or even slightly less ballistics.

I think the girls often shoot the big bores easier than big men, my wife weighs much the same. She considers her 416 THE rifle to go.

She also has a 8lb 500NE, but where she shoots the 416 with impunity (up to 18 shots) the 500 is for restricted use. To be fair a 8lb 500 is a force to be reckoned with by anyone.

The more animals I see shot the more dark terminal ballistics and the difference between calibres become to me. Last year we had 5 DRT impalas shot with the lowly 308 Win but 2 minor tracking jobs with 2 impalas shot with the 416s.

Todd

I am sure jealous about that MG stock and your gun in general, would love that stock on my CZ 375. Do you have the factory bottom metal in that gun?

I'm with you on reactions in game. Almost anything can happen out there, but when hundreds of examples are pooled together, one can come to probabilities. Bullet placement and movement of as little as a 1/4" can sometimes make a big difference. I'm sure we both have friends who have taken buffalo with a 270, 7mm, 303 or 30-06. But surely bigger is better and can diminish the numbers of wounded, escaped buff. I once tracked a buffalo through tall grass and for three hours that we had found with a spot of blood in its overnight bedding. It turned out to have been wounded by a 308, probably automatic because of multiple wounds, a considerable time earlier. We took that buffalo, and may have saved some local passerby from a future unpleasant encounter. As to this thread, I think that the .416" is a good African compromise as having 'enough diameter' versus being manageable and multivalent. This is not to say that 33, 36, and 37 calibre can't work very well, they do. But the 416 is another step up and can still be a lady's 'go to' rifle.

Tanzan

I absolutely agree on the 416 as a good (perfect) African compromise, IMO the perfect caliber for a client. An adequate caliber for a PH but I would rather launch .500 something as PH. I absolutely dislike 375 with soft point on buffalo from personal experience. IMO the 375 is a better elephant gun than buffalo gun.

The bullet that I am searching for in 416 is true high BC copper and lead bonded bullet, this can be launched from the Rigby at enough velocity to exploit a high BC. I would love this combination for big plains game that you want to put down with authority at range. The Remmie doesn't have the case capacity to exploit such bullets with the propellants available to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Balule:
Tanzan

I absolutely agree on the 416 as a good (perfect) African compromise, IMO the perfect caliber for a client. An adequate caliber for a PH but I would rather launch .500 something as PH. I absolutely dislike 375 with soft point on buffalo from personal experience. IMO the 375 is a better elephant gun than buffalo gun.

The bullet that I am searching for in 416 is true high BC copper and lead bonded bullet, this can be launched from the Rigby at enough velocity to exploit a high BC. I would love this combination for big plains game that you want to put down with authority at range. The Remmie doesn't have the case capacity to exploit such bullets with the propellants available to me.

Well, for BC and tough in .416 it would be hard to go wrong with the 350 grain TTSX Barnes. The BC is .444. I haven't been able to load those yet in Africa, but 102.5 grains of R-17 produces 2825-2850 fps in our rifles with the 350 grain TSX. You can probably get close to this with Somchem 365. As you can see in the pictures above, it's a pretty great bullet. I'm not sure that you can beat it with lead at the moment. Lead bullets tend to have lower BCs and are less reliable when under 400 grains. for example, Swift Aframe 350 grain only has a .321 BC. I'm glad the bullet that smashed the buffalo face was a monolithic, though at .416 calibre bullets with lesser integrity would probably have worked.

On the other hand, bonded lead bullets need to be limited in velocity. I'm not sure that Woodleigh would recommend their 340 grainer at 2800+ fps, and it only has a .330 BC.

Balule,

Yes, it has the factory bottom metal. The gun has been modified twice. Once by MGA with the stock, barrel band, barrel shortening, than again by AHR to fill/straighten the bolt, install M-70 safety, smooth the action, and gunkote all metal parts. I'm extremely happy with the way it is now, although almost all of my DG hunting lately has been with double rifles. Still, it has a future in my stable.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by Balule:
Tanzan

I absolutely agree on the 416 as a good (perfect) African compromise, IMO the perfect caliber for a client. An adequate caliber for a PH but I would rather launch .500 something as PH. I absolutely dislike 375 with soft point on buffalo from personal experience. IMO the 375 is a better elephant gun than buffalo gun.

The bullet that I am searching for in 416 is true high BC copper and lead bonded bullet, this can be launched from the Rigby at enough velocity to exploit a high BC. I would love this combination for big plains game that you want to put down with authority at range. The Remmie doesn't have the case capacity to exploit such bullets with the propellants available to me.

Well, for BC and tough in .416 it would be hard to go wrong with the 350 grain TTSX Barnes. The BC is .444. I haven't been able to load those yet in Africa, but 102.5 grains of R-17 produces 2825-2850 fps in our rifles with the 350 grain TSX. You can probably get close to this with Somchem 365. As you can see in the pictures above, it's a pretty great bullet. I'm not sure that you can beat it with lead at the moment. Lead bullets tend to have lower BCs and are less reliable when under 400 grains. for example, Swift Aframe 350 grain only has a .321 BC. I'm glad the bullet that smashed the buffalo face was a monolithic, though at .416 calibre bullets with lesser integrity would probably have worked.

On the other hand, bonded lead bullets need to be limited in velocity. I'm not sure that Woodleigh would recommend their 340 grainer at 2800+ fps, and it only has a .330 BC.

Might suggest a 370 Gr North Fork; Bonded core, solid shank, they advertise the harder you drive them, the better they penetrate.
I can get 2500 FPS and change out of my Remmie with no pressure signs at 100F. Should shoot about as flat as a 375 H&H.

EZ

What is the BC on the CEB non-con with the poly tip added? Reports suggest that it is an increddibly effective bullet on DG. I heard that Michael smoke a few Aussie buffalo with them a few months ago.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
What is the BC on the CEB non-con with the poly tip added? Reports suggest that it is an increddibly effective bullet on DG. I heard that Michael smoke a few Aussie buffalo with them a few months ago.

At the moment the CEB offers a 325 grain, but the BC is very low, well under .2, maybe .15. There are tips that can be added but the bullet is then too long for a magazaine and the BC doesn't get over .300 if I remember correctly. A newer design is in the works that will fit in a magazine and will be quite light (235 grain?), but still devastating. With a plastic tip it should be in the .300 range BC and will fly at velocities like 3100-3200+fps.

quote:

Originally posted by frank4570:
I'm not really seeing much difference here. I'm looking at both and trying to come up with a reason to chose one over the other. Thoughts?

I prefer a worked over M70 chambered 416Rem along the lines of Phil Shoemakers old light rifle. The 416Rem goes together with a M70 like peanut butter and jelly. Handload a 350TSX and you're golden.

For an out the box factory production rifle, a M77 416 Ruger is hard to beat.

Alot of value here---just run a 416 ruger reamer in it and work on the feeding if it needs it...

http://forums.accuratereloadin...2711043/m/2101030581

Ed

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Bullet placement and movement of as little as a 1/4" can sometimes make a big difference.

So can a movement of as little a 1/4" on a bolt throw. Which is the major difference between the .416's.

quote:

Ruger, Rem Mag or B&M--get the RIFLE that fits you and your hunting-

Nothing you shoot will ever know the difference between the cartridges.

This would be my thinking

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Bullet placement and movement of as little as a 1/4" can sometimes make a big difference.

So can a movement of as little a 1/4" on a bolt throw. Which is the major difference between the .416's.

I was referring to a 1/4" difference in shot placement.

From my experience, as well as that of numerous other African hunters and PH's, including WDM Bell, a shorter bolt throw is often of more importance than a bullet misplaced 1/4 of an inch.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
From my experience, as well as that of numerous other African hunters and PH's, including WDM Bell, a shorter bolt throw is often of more importance than a bullet misplaced 1/4 of an inch.

Then those guys would love my favorite 416. 18 inch barrel, WSM action, 8 lbs total WITH the scope, 38 inches overall length. 350s to 2400, 400s to 2300, and 300s to 2600, and have a brand new BBW#13 NonCon at 225 grs that I test this week.

quote:

CEB offers a 325 grain, but the BC is very low, well under .2, maybe .15.

Tanz, that bullet is meant for buffalo, not for long range. It matches the 350 #13 Solid, both with
long nose projection. DG bullets, not Damned impala bullets.

Michael

{QUOTE}Then those guys would love my favorite 416. 18 inch barrel, WSM action, 8 lbs total WITH the scope, 38 inches overall length. 350s to 2400, 400s to 2300, and 300s to 2600, and have a brand new BBW#13 NonCon at 225 grs that I test this week.

[/QUOTE]

That is quite possibly the perfect hunting rifle!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

CEB offers a 325 grain, but the BC is very low, well under .2, maybe .15.

Tanz, that bullet is meant for buffalo, not for long range. It matches the 350 #13 Solid, both with
long nose projection. DG bullets, not Damned impala bullets.

Michael

And they work very well--

I took an elephant with the 350 solid and a buff with the 325 NonCon last fall.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

CEB offers a 325 grain, but the BC is very low, well under .2, maybe .15.

Tanz, that bullet is meant for buffalo, not for long range. It matches the 350 #13 Solid, both with
long nose projection. DG bullets, not Damned impala bullets.

Michael

That's fine, except some of us are in the forest with one rifle, sighted in for one load. And the guy asked about BC. Such a bullet needs to handle buffalo and still be good for 201-yard oribis. In the past I used to have a 338 around, or lesser like a 270 or 300, to use for oribi or tommy, anywhere from 50-300 yards. Did a 360-400 yard Dorcas cousin once. At the moment we only have the 416 Rigby until we get the 500 AccRelNyati built, tested, loaded up, and carried overseas.

Incidentally, in October we only learned that the oribi pictured above in the thread was 201 yards away after the shot. Two of them had been running in some kind of circle and changing places. I was walking back to the vehicle when my son called out that they had stopped again and jwith binoculars named which one had the horns. I had to guess distance. Boom. Sometimes, flat helps, because those are only 35lb animals. I wish it were an impala but there were no impala in the area. Anyway, Dan understands this other perspective on versatility and will come out with the ER line.

Tanz

I don't see what is so difficult about adding a Talon tip, say to that 325, my data says with tip added the BC is .312, give or take a bit. Have one of those on top, in the chamber, followed by naked ones in the magazine. Seems to cover just about everything to me. But I know very few walking around in the forest with one rifle looking for buffalo and worried about 400 yard shots on orbi, or impala, or any other small antelope. You could have very easily taken the same 200 yd shot with the #13 325 on that 35 lb critter.

You think I don't understand this perspective? You misjudge, of course I understand it, I just don't see it as viable and have little concern for it! I will leave all the ER to you and Dan however, I have about ZERO interest in it. If I don't feel the blood splatter on my face at the shot, then its too damned far for me!

Michael

quote:

That is quite possibly the perfect hunting rifle!

JCS271, well if you gonna have a 416 that would be my feeling as well.
Thanks
Michael

quote:

Originally posted by frank4570:
I TRIED to buy a new 416 ruger alaskan today. They seem to be all gone.
I'm waiting for a guy to get back to me on a used but never fired 416 ruger alaskan. I'm losing hope on this particular model.
I want to be driving a .416 caliber bullet pretty fast and pretty accurate by next years hunting season.

If you want the Alaskan in 416 Ruger don't wait. When I went to the Ruger site recently that model was gone. Wrote Ruger and was told that a "marketing decision" had stopped production of the 416 Alaskan. Stupid stupid stupid. Now to get a Ruger 416 the only choice is the wood stocked 23" African. Gun Broker still has several, however.

The folks at the Ruger booth at the SHOT show assured me that the stainless steel guide gun will be back out in a couple of months.

Owned both, prefer the Ruger. The Alaskan is a compact and rugged hunting rifle that needn't be coddled. I got my Sako AV .416 Rem. mag. converted to a .458 Lott.