Who made the following statements?

Question:
I have never noticed any advantage in penetration or holding a straight course with the ‘flat meplat’.

I first encountered that design early on in my career in the late nineteen forties loaded in Winchester’s 300 gr.375 solid. I had numerous discussions on the subject when I accompanied John Wootters and Jack Carter on safari in Botswana as Jack’s ‘Sledghammer’ solid had a ‘flat meplat’.

Quite frankly I think the tendency for the ‘flat meplat’ to hold a truer course is mostly ‘theory’. It does undoubtedly have some feeding problems in some rifles.

Choices:
Michael McCourry
Harry Selby, Professional Hunter

Question:
My feeling is that the flat nose solids currently in vogue is marketing hype. There are all kinds of supposed technical advantages touted for the flat nose, i.e. that it maintains direction better while penetrating, and greater tissue damage.

Over the many years since the advent of jacketed round-nose solids, who knows how many large beasts have been shot with satisfactory results. If the jacket had the integrity to withstand deformation forces, they worked very well (not all did – such as Kynoch and RWS). The flat nose creates more work for the gun maker, at least for those that ensure their product cycles rounds flawlessly.

Choices:
Michael McCourry
Roy Vincent, Professional Hunter

Question:
While my experience with flat nosed solids is limited, I have never noticed the difference between them and the round nose.

What is more important is the fact that the round nose construction feeds reliably always, and that the construction is sound as your Barnes Banded Solid is.

Choices:
Michael McCourry
Athol Frylinck, Professional Hunter

 

I got my vote in.BTW,Who is Michael McCourry? Is he on one of those hunting shows?

None of them could have been Michael....no "heh" in any of those statements :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
None of them could have been Michael....no "heh" in any of those statements :-)

Yes, and they are relatively succinct and devoid of invective.

I am quite confident that Harry, Roy and Athol, like many other PH's that use and recommend that their client's use, round nose solids do not view themselves as cavemen using stones, uninformed shooters relying on a bullet that is marginally better than a spear or folks who time has simply passed by while they polish their Model T's. They use and recommend those bullets because, for them, the bullets represent the best ballistic choice based on a variety of factors they consider important, including feeding. They undoubtedly understand, however, that others might make a different choice based on factors that they feel are more important, including penetration.

Pity that others cannot appreciate or accept that in this debate, there is no right or wrong answer, there is just personal preference based on a consideration of all relevant factors . . . and that being the case, to be dismissive/snide in reference to the views held by others still, in the final analysis, does not make them right. Too many seem to regard "their view" as being synonymous with "the right view". Sorry to disappoint them.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
... including feeding. ...
...It does undoubtedly have some feeding problems in some rifles..
...The flat nose creates more work for the gun maker, at least for those that ensure their product cycles rounds flawlessly...
...What is more important is the fact that the round nose construction feeds reliably always...

Seems like as in the other thread you are stuck on the biggest "straw man" argument of them all. "Feeding".

That is a non-issue for anyone going hunting, seeing that if there is a problem, then it can be resolved by a competent gunsmith.

You are right about one thing though, it is a personal preference. However, that does not mean all the effectiveness tests of the FN solids is immaterial just because you don't care for them.

I also don't see why this disagreement gets so personal for you. Or are you just bored?

Last time I looked neither Alexander the Great or Napoleon Bonaparte knew much about machine-guns either.

So I guess they are worthless in combat.

The wheel has been reinvented many times. Flat nose are in vogue today. Tomorrow someone will come up with something better--or say they are better for their moment of fame. I'm happy with Woodleighs. If an animal was wounded with them (did not drop right away to a killing shot) it was because of shooter (my) error.
Cal

I still prefer my forges aluminum wheels on my auto today over the wooden spoke wheels on grand dad's Model T or even the narrow heavy steel wheels I had one my 1948 Chevy or the metal wheels on my Red Flyer wagon as a child.

I guess alya'll RN folks would be perfectly willing to use the RN FMJ bullets designed by Nicolas Lebel in 1887. Perhaps if that is to new a design you'd prefer to revert to Eduardo Rubin's 1882 bullet design/composition. After all the bullets designed by these two gentlemen have killed hundreds of thousands (at least) of the most dangerous animals on this earth.

Please Note: Cal I am not attacking you literally or personally.

My comments regarding Rubin and Lebel relate to the perception by some, or perhaps by many (reader's perception), that RN FMJ solids have not evolved since their inception by Lebel in 1887

FN solids have evolved in both design and construction from their inception, in fact a few have devolved performance wise to accommodate the drawbacks of mass produced firearms.

Edits and date corrections - thumbs for fingers and autocorrections on my iPad.

Interesting reads...
From the Woodleigh website.
Bullet production began early 1980s, 90+years after Lebel created the RN FMJ bullet and 90+ years evolution of the shape and construction of the RN FMJ bullets inclusive of the equipment used to manufacture the bullets. This was also during the era when the virtually the original makers (at least as identified with African hunting bullets) ceased production - to be soon replaced by most cartridge manufacturers with the new Woodleigh bullets.

From the GS Custom Bullets website.
Bullet production of monometal target and hunting bullets began in 1993 with the progressive evolution of their FN and HV monometal hunting bullets we see today.

From the CEB website.
Bullet production of monometal target and hunting bullets began in 2001. As anyone who has read the TBP thread is aware, CEB began production of DG bullets after Michael and Sam developed the successful BBW#13 bullet design. Many alternative evolutions of the original BBW#13 bullet shape has been introduced while maintaining the originals.

What is the price difference in the round nose copper clad steel jacketed bullet vs the swiss-screw turned 2%leaded?


Could it be someone is just being cheap?

quote:

What is the price difference in the round nose copper clad steel jacketed bullet vs the swiss-screw turned 2%leaded?


Could it be someone is just being cheap

Cheap is great for practice but spending a few extra dollars on bullets for a hunt costing thousands of dollars... Well, cheap isn't the word that comes to mind.

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
... including feeding. ...
...It does undoubtedly have some feeding problems in some rifles..
...The flat nose creates more work for the gun maker, at least for those that ensure their product cycles rounds flawlessly...
...What is more important is the fact that the round nose construction feeds reliably always...

Seems like as in the other thread you are stuck on the biggest "straw man" argument of them all. "Feeding".

That is a non-issue for anyone going hunting, seeing that if there is a problem, then it can be resolved by a competent gunsmith.

You are right about one thing though, it is a personal preference. However, that does not mean all the effectiveness tests of the FN solids is immaterial just because you don't care for them.

I also don't see why this disagreement gets so personal for you. Or are you just bored?

It is my understanding that failure to feed produces some of the world's most expensive Custom clubs!

quote:

The wheel has been reinvented many times. Flat nose are in vogue today. Tomorrow someone will come up with something better--or say they are better for their moment of fame. I'm happy with Woodleighs. If an animal was wounded with them (did not drop right away to a killing shot) it was because of shooter (my) error.
Cal

Roger that!

I just don't get why all the hate...

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:
...
That is a non-issue for anyone going hunting, seeing that if there is a problem, then it can be resolved by a competent gunsmith...

It is my understanding that failure to feed produces some of the world's most expensive Custom clubs!

...

I think you missed the sentence where I said it can be resolved by a competent gunsmith. Would you accept a custom gun that did not feed or send it back to be fixed?

quote:

Originally posted by badboymelvin:
I just don't get why all the hate...

It is really not that hard to understand. Some people are of the opinion that their view is the only right view, when others suggest that alternative views may be completely acceptable that gets their dander up. Unfortunate, but that is simply the way it is sometimes, whether the debate is about Fords versus Chevs, bolt action rifles versus double rifles . . . or flat nose solids versus round nose solids.

You are the one that brought this crap up!

Au contraire mon frere.

The issue arose when others suggested that folks using round nose solids had their vision clouded by tradition, nostalgia or grandpa Moses, that trying to reason with these people was a waste of time since their vision was clouded, that hunters electing to use round nose bullets might as well still be using stones or spears . . . .

I don't have a dog, or a rifle in this fight.
But, the feeding issue is The issue . Some guys say to just have a gunsmith fix the problem. Lot of that is just a money thing. .
IMO. If your rifle likes flat nose solids great. If you want to shoot them and your rifle doesn't like them, send it off and wait. And wait, and wait. And spend, and spend ect.
I'll take all the technical advantages that are real that I can get. As long as I can afford both the time and money to get them.
Feeding seems to be the big issue and it is a very big issue considering that good old fashion solids have been working for over a hundred years and that the flat nose solids appear that they will work for the next hundred.
Maybe the rifle builders will start making every rifle so it feeds flat nose bullets.

There does appear to be some evidence that FN offers some advantages in some situations (but not all), but until they are offered by major ammunition manufacturers as part of their over the counter line up, well, this whole conversation is just academic to me and Ill just stick with "whatever they feed me". I just returned from CB hunting and my PH had three different kinds of solids in his belt, mostly RN, and I left him a box of Federal Barnes RN solids for his .416, and he was very happy.

quote:

Originally posted by BEGNO:
There does appear to be some evidence that FN offers some advantages in some situations (but not all), but until they are offered by major ammunition manufacturers as part of their over the counter line up, well, this whole conversation is just academic to me and Ill just stick with "whatever they feed me". ...

Well, a major manufacturer does offer FN solids. Federal TB Sledgehammer Solids in a variety of calibers.
http://www.federalpremium.com/...ls/rifle.aspx?id=345

Well, I'll take a look at them. I hope they are accurate and feed well, that is what is important to me.

Thx
P.s. Well maybe not after reading another post about the TB.

Butch,

Federal Premium USED to offer Barnes banded solids, the flatnosed kind, but no longer. I think it is due to the ongoing ATF foolishness regarding the AP nature of these, should some "Bad Person" stuff a 375 H&H bullet in a 38 special.... yeah right.... that'll happen.

I had pretty luck with those BBS in 375 and 416, lucky for me, my 416 is a double - always feeds, the 375s, ( CZ and Heym ) both fed them fine. I've got a box of BB13's for the 375, I want to load up, but haven't made the time yet.

In any case, all cases in fact, bullet placement trumps bullet brand pretty danged often.

Tanks,
I most certainly agree. It ought to feed. Every time!

My 458 feeds the TBSH solid great. This is an old lot of them. However Federal dropped the ball when these were loaded. They wernt crimped at all. Its the first time I ever had any problems with any Federal ammo. Several of the bullets Could pull out with my fingers. . I ran them all thru my Lee factory crimp die. They only chronographed 2040 fps if I remember right. . I just got them for escaped circus elephants. .

Hey MikeE,

I remember that ammunition and I still have some of Fed/Barnes FN solids ammo in 9.3 x 74 and 9.3 x 62.

Begno,

You might also look at the Hornady DGS. It penetrates deeper in soft tissue than RN solids but not as deep as a optimally designed FN solid such as the North Fork, CEB or Woodleigh Hydro. The DGS does feed very well.

465H&H

Thx for the info.

NO giant African species have I shot but I'm inclined to believe that a flat point would fish tail after hitting bone. Not even a novice here when it comes to the big 5 but I would choose a round nose over a flat point given the choice.

Just me


Cal30

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
The wheel has been reinvented many times. Flat nose are in vogue today. Tomorrow someone will come up with something better--or say they are better for their moment of fame. I'm happy with Woodleighs. If an animal was wounded with them (did not drop right away to a killing shot) it was because of shooter (my) error.
Cal

You are wrong about this. Handgun hunters have known about the positive performance attributes of flat-nosed bullet profiles for decades. Handgun hunters will use exactly two types of bullets depending on what game they are hunting and that would be expanding or solid, and the solid will ALWAYS have a flat nose. Now, with the limitations of case capacity, short barrels, and a cylinder gap, we have still found away to drive bullets deep and straight into animal flesh with lots of tissue destruction, and I can assure you it isn't attributable to a round nose profile. It was inevitable that the rifle set would eventually catch on. You can keep referring to it as a fad, but it is a fad that has been supported by handgun hunters FOR DECADES. So, by definition, it really isn't a fad now is it.

Now, y'all can keep pissing on each other if you choose. This place is beginning to feel like a playground, except it looks like one of the kids (Michael in this case) has actually done his homework and the leg work and put his money where his mouth is. Despite all of the evidence he has presented, at a considerable cost incurred to himself, he gets a load of derision from those who evidently are unwilling to look past the animosity that has indeed built up here over the years between the two factions. The criticisms about the media tested, gets complete support from the performance observed in the field on live animal flesh, and the naysayers still refuse to accept the proof presented.

Good grief, man.

Harry Selby? Really? You're going to play that card?

Gotta keep this going.
I don't think there is one correct answer to this debate. Excellent points on both sides. But. We ought to keep the discussion civil. This is a great site but it will become less so if all everyone does is argue and find fault.
If a guy has a rifle that feeds the fn bullets or he wants to make it feed them. Great. But if it doesn't and he doesn't want to, no doubt he can get by quite well with conventional steel jacketed solids. If they didn't work, a lot of African Professional hunters past and present wouldn't be among the living.

I wonder why woodleigh came up w/ their new flat nosed solid ? To be part of a fad ? I doubt that.

Whitworth,

Have a look at this page.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Killartist:
I wonder why woodleigh came up w/ their new flat nosed solid ? To be part of a fad ? I doubt that.

While you are wondering . . . wonder about why Barnes went from a flat nose solid to a round nose solid in their safari line. To go "retro"? I doubt that.

quote:

I wonder why woodleigh came up w/ their new flat nosed solid ? To be part of a fad ? I doubt that.

Because they appear to offer something their traditional FMJ solids don’t offer ---

Woodleigh Hydrostatically Stabilised bullets feature the following characteristics:
• Non toxic, environmentally sensitive.
• Unequalled straight line performance.
• Deep penetration, totally reliable wound channel.
• Clean entry wounds to assist bleeding that will not close over.
• Can be used in most nitro double, and magazine rifles.

Stainless Steel tipped Hydrostatically Stabilised Bullets are currently under development.
and
COMING SOON
Capped Hydrostatically Stabilised Bullets for reliable feeding and higher ballistic coefficient.

quote:

While you are wondering . . . wonder about why Barnes went from a flat nose solid to a round nose solid in their safari line.

No need to wonder about that. Barnes gives the answer:
"For 2011, Barnes added the RN design back into the Banded Solids lineup. Why? It’s simple: feed and function in bolt action rifles. Hunters use these Banded Solids in larger calibers for dangerous game. The RN is a proven design that works in bolt guns, a very important consideration for this type of hunting." http://www.barnesbullets.com/p...ded-solids%E2%84%A2/

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:

quote:

While you are wondering . . . wonder about why Barnes went from a flat nose solid to a round nose solid in their safari line.

No need to wonder about that. Barnes gives the answer:
"For 2011, Barnes added the RN design back into the Banded Solids lineup. Why? It’s simple: feed and function in bolt action rifles. Hunters use these Banded Solids in larger calibers for dangerous game. The RN is a proven design that works in bolt guns, a very important consideration for this type of hunting." http://www.barnesbullets.com/p...ded-solids%E2%84%A2/

Yep no wondering there.

Perhaps someday USA hunters will stop accepting USA manufacturer's supposed DG rifles unless these rifles properly function with all varieties of bullets available.

Yes I know, that'll never happen from either 'cause buyers will be happy with whatever is offered to them and the manufacturers will only make sure their DG rifles at least function with their brand of factory loaded DG ammunition which won't include properly designed FN solids.

quote:

Originally posted by cal30 1906:
NO giant African species have I shot but I'm inclined to believe that a flat point would fish tail after hitting bone. Not even a novice here when it comes to the big 5 but I would choose a round nose over a flat point given the choice...

Well, belief is one thing, and scientific proof another. All the major manufacturers of FN bullets (GS, NF, and CEB) have run countless tests to make sure their bullets stabilize. As others have pointed out FN bullets have been used for a decade or more for all kinds of game.

Not to mention exhaustive test that were done by some of the AR members both in lab and in the field.

I can see choosing RN due to its longer history, but what makes you believe that the FN bullets would fishtail after hitting bone? Heck, deflection after hitting bone is the occasional complaint about RN solids.

Tanks, This article has some theories to explain that which is observed in practise.

Some of you------have an interesting mind set.
The question was rhetorical! Or, for those that failed to get it---in jest.
Woodleigh came up w/ their new flat nosed solid for one reason only. Because it is a better design than their round nosed solid.Their test proved it.
Barnes tired of answering Jim Bob's questions. 'Why does my new remchestion that I bought to go to Africa next month not feed your safari ammo ?' 'Hey, I got this new remchester yesterday and the clerk at the store told me I needed your ammo for my safari next month. When I loaded the magazine, some of your loads did not chamber like the 30-06 my Dad gave me. What's the deal?' 'How am I supposed to practice w/ my new remchester ? This ammo cost a fortune and the damn things won't feed in my new gun. Can I have my money back ?' You guys make crappy ammo. My new remchester won't feed the shells you made.I'm leaving for Africa in 2 days. What 's wrong w/ your ammo and what am I gonna do? And so on. Barnes caved to the obAma supporter mindset----so it could sell more ammo and stop answering stupid questions from stupid people.the bean counters told them they had to.
I'm flying to Houston next month. Are you suggesting I fly in a bi- plane ? They have been around a long time and will get me there.

Shhhhh . . . you are going to ruin the good reputation that others like bwanajay from Sinton have. I hope it did not take you all night to come up with the biplane analogy. You could have just used one of the caveman, Model T, Grandpa Moses, wooden spokes, blackpowder, etc. analogies from the other thread. I will give you an "E" for effort but you just barely chinned the bar.

In the spirit of wondering, if Woodleigh came up with the hydrostatically stabilized solid because that was a better design, why do they keep making the old, inferior round nose solids? Could it be that they still think the round nose solids are appropriate in some applications? Maybe not everyone can get the hydrostatically stabilized solids to feed? Maybe they do not even realize they are still making the round nose solids?

[By the way, odds are if you are flying from Sinton to Houston, you will be on biplane any way.]

Perhaps you have heard of a place in TX called Corpus ? Closer to Sinton than Katy to Bush or Plano to DFW. It has a modern airport---w/ modern (flat nosed) airplanes.