Hi!

I bought a Winchester M-70 pre 64 Safari Express in caliber .416 Rem. The gun is just what i wanted , it has a straight stock, Mauser mechanism and looks good. I wonder if there are some in here with some experience with this gun and if they could share some of their experience both good and bad.

I can't help you w/ a pre-64 version, but, I do have that rifle in a "classic" post version and consider it one of my better firearm choices. I plan to enjoy mine for many years to come.

Good Luck,
GVA

quote:

Originally posted by David Walther:
. . . hate jalapeños

Sacrilege, pure sacrilege. I suspect that it is just impossible to get a good jalapeño in Norway.

I had one with several small problems that were easily fixed. First, the rear sight was loose. The screw hole was too short for the retaining screw and when tapped a bit more, solved that problem. Secondly, it fed poorly from the left side until the feed ramp was smoothed and the magazine spring replaced with a stiffer one. Both were simple quality control items and should have been noticed at the factory, but once solved, I had a fine rifle.

I think I sold it to someone on theis forum and they were well satisfied, particularly, pre-belly-up price was less than $800 for an "almost" nib rifle.

I have had three of them and liked them all.I did have one of the last ones made and it did have a loose rear site too.I have fired my first one 2500 times with no problems at all.Its one of the best 416 rem mags ever made.It was made in 1997 I think .The one made last year had a different stock and was a little heavier.I love these guns.If you can find one for $800 now you better buy it.The ones in the box have fetched up to $3000 .I dont think there were more than 1000 416 rem mags made in the model 70.I saw one stainless one which I bickered at the $1500 price at the time.Its probally a $5000 gun now.I dont think they made more than 40 of them.I have had 7 416 rem mags now.I sold a Sako I had which was beautiful but I hated the stock and the rings slid forward.I use weaver bases and burris Signature zee rings and Nikon Monarch 3x9 scopes on all my 416s.I hjave three other 416s all Remington 700s.There are two blued ones and one stainless one.I had to replace the magazine springs in all three of them.I have no problems with the Winchesters other than the loose rear site which was fixed free of cost.Its the best 416 Rem Mag in my opinion.You can spend alot more money on a 416 but I dought it will be any better.They are running anywhere from $1200 for a beat up one to $3000 for a new one.

And then there is the Big Five version of the very same rifle, differing only in the gold leaf/inlay of a cape buffalo on the floor plate, from the Winchester Custom Shop.

They made 125 of each of the 5 calibers, and .416 Remington Magnum was the final caliber in the Big Five series of M70 Classic Safari Express rifles.

What would that be worth as a single from the set?

BTW, the standard M70 Classic Safari Express weighs about 9.1 pounds bare and empty with that version of the stock being negative-drop, straight-line comb and wide butt, same as the Big Five series.

Perfect weight and balance for a serious .416 RemMag, IMHO.

A bedding job is a must on the more recent safari express, and all of the model 70s for that matter. They put some rubber cement-like stuff in there that should be removed and the action glass bedded. Not a big deal. Trigger may need a little work too. Just the things that need smoothed out on any factory rifle.

I have a 375 and a 458, wish I had a 416, been thinking about converting the 375 to 416, the rifle's a little heavy in 375 and the 416 would be perfect. Maybe I'll get lucky too and find one.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
I had one with several small problems that were easily fixed. First, the rear sight was loose. The screw hole was too short for the retaining

I had to remove the rear sight on my gun since the scope touched it. I have a Leupold VariX-III 3,5-10x50 on it witch is a little tad to big. I planned to switch this scope with a far smaller one, but alot of building and fixing on a rotten bathroom took a huge bite in my wallet. I'm going put the rear sight back on when a smaller scope walks in. The guy that owned the gun first changed the original extractor with a custom version witch he told was far more "firm" than the original. I don't know I have not even seen the original one other than I've seen that their black.

There is a set of those big 5 guns on Gunsamerica.com.I think you could get $20,000 for the set now.I could kick myself for not buying one for $1200 the guy had shot it but it was like new.The 470 in the model 70 is the rarest of the big 5 calibers .I have a friend that has one.I like the 416 as my dangerous game rifle.I hope I get to take it to Africa when I go.I use the Remingtons in Alaska with Fiberglass stocks.They are pretty Rough and toumble guns .

I just looked one set of 5 is $48,000 unfired.The other set is a bargin at $16,000 with the 375 being fired.I think my Model 70 in 416 rem mag is my second favorite rifle behind my Ruger model 77 in 338 win mag.I have alot of practice with that 416 rem mag.Its a blast to shoot.The Remingtons kick less in fiberglass and kevelar stocks.I want an HS stock for my model 70 416 cant find one.

dgr416,
Sportsman's Whorehouse was stocking those HS Precision stocks for the M70. I walked into the one in Wichitas, KS and bought two for M70 and another for a Ruger M77MkII, fits the Hawkeye.

My M70 HS stocks went on a .375 Weatherby and a .416 Dakota. The .416 Remington stays in the wood.

quote:

Originally posted by David Walther:
I bought a Winchester M-70 pre 64 Safari Express in caliber .416 Rem.

I'm confused. Any pre-'64 model 70 would have to be re-barreled as 416 Rem mag wasn't offered until the late '80's.

Or, if it's a Safari Express, it can't be a pre-'64. It seems to me that its got to be one or the other. What am I missing?

quote:

I'm confused. Any pre-'64 model 70 would have to be re-barreled as 416 Rem mag wasn't offered until the late '80's.

Or, if it's a Safari Express, it can't be a pre-'64. It seems to me that its got to be one or the other. What am I missing?

You don't miss anything. It is a pre-64 model with a mauser type action and claw extractor. So it is quite new. It is as far as I know an action that is buildt in america and the rest is assembled in Belgium at the Browning factory.

A Pre-64 M70, has some features of a Mauser, aye, but should not be considered close enough to be called a "mauser type" action.

This would not be a Classic Safari Express that the rest of us were talking about.

The newer Classic M70 has better breech gas handling than the Springfield type breech of the Pre-64.

Both Pre-64 and Classic M70's have claw extractors and CRF like a Mauser, but the M70 extractors do not have the self-locking feature of a Mauser.

The Mauser is "Controlled Round Feeding and Extracting": (CRF&E)

So interpret my previous remarks about the Classic Safari Express as exclusive of David's rifle, for he seems to have a zebra that I thought was a horse, from the sound of the hoofbeats.

Many will mistakenly say "M70 Pre-64 type action" to refer to a "Winchester Model 70 Classic" action, which is really not correct both physically from action details, and chronologically, since the M70 Classics didn't start showing up on dealer shelves until about 1992, IIRC.

David,
Is this actually an M70 Classic action of 1990's design that is now being made up into rifles in Belgium?

MJ,

maybe he's a big boy and has graduated to Habaneros...?

Rich
DRSS

quote:

David,
Is this actually an M70 Classic action of 1990's design that is now being made up into rifles in Belgium?

It is an M70 Classic Safari Express and it is absolutely newer than 1990. It has a straight original american type stock witch I thaught was a quite new thing from Winchester.

Then it is not a "Pre-64 M70" nor a "mauser type" action, but an "M70 Classic" action, and we are back to horses, except for that part about Belgium?

All the M70 Classics I know of were completely made in USA, New Haven,Connecticut or ???, SC? Have I missed something?

In the late 90's the Monte Carlo type Winchester walnut stocks disappeared and were replaced by a straight-comb version that has negative drop of the comb, i.e., the heel at butt is slightly higher than the nose of the comb. Not so good for iron sights but excellent for scope sights.

I like jalapenos and habaneros.

quote:

Originally posted by David Walther:
Hi!

I bought a Winchester M-70 pre 64 Safari Express in caliber .416 Rem. The gun is just what i wanted , it has a straight stock, Mauser mechanism and looks good. I wonder if there are some in here with some experience with this gun and if they could share some of their experience both good and bad.

[QUOTE]It is an M70 Classic Safari Express and it is absolutely newer than 1990. It has a straight original american type stock witch I thaught was a quite new thing from Winchester.[QUOTE]

I am totally lost....

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Then it is not a "Pre-64" nor a "mauser type" action, and we are back to horses, except for that part about Belgium?

All the M70 Classics I know of were completely made in USA, New Haven,Connecticut or ???, SC? Have I missed something?

In the late 90's the Monte Carlo type Winchester walnut stocks disappeared and were replaced by a straight-comb version that has negative drop of the comb, i.e., the heel at butt is slightly higher than the nose of the comb. Not so good for iron sights but excellent for scope sights.

I have a Mauser M98 1943 model and could you please teach me the difference between those and what makes my gun a horse? The mechanisms looks very similar exept for the safetylever on my Mauser. I have shot with a M70 Winchester in 308 Win and it was a standard push feed thing witch mine is not.

David,
I see that you have edited out the earlier part of your post alluding to Belgium assembly and "mauser type" action. Good. No problem.

This is perfectly understandable if you are new to the CRF M70 Classic as opposed to the "post-64" pushfeeds. "Post-92 Classic M70" would eliminate any confusion, even if a bit redundant, eh?

The M70 CRF's, both Pre-64 and Classic, are very similar, but the coned breech and extractor cuts on their breeches and gas handling are different. The newer Classic has better gas handling safety. The Pre-64 had Springfield type gas handling. Little functional difference otherwise, finer points to be left to the experts, not me.

The Mauser action has no coned breech, but a flush/square barrel shank that fits/threads up against the C-collar in the original M98 action design. No extractor cuts on the barrel.

The Mauser extractor has an undercut or bevel of the tongue that fits in the groove on the side of the bolt near the face of the bolt. This makes the extractor tighten inward as the bolt is pulled rearward with a chambered case rim under the extractor edge on the bolt face. It cannot come off the rim unless it pulls through the rim of the cartridge.

An M70 extractor is not beveled like this, and is easier to slip over, onto or off, the rim. This makes it easy to pushfeed a cartridge into the chamber from above the magazine to top off the full box. With a Mauser, side pressure on the middle of the extractor with a finger is required to flex the extractor enough to snap over a similarly fed topping off cartridge. This may also make it easier for the M70 extractor to fail to extract in a bad situation. Unlikely.

Others may jump in, but let me just list the Stuart Otteson strengths and weaknesses (from his book, _The Bolt Action_) of the M98 and the old Pre-'64 M70, noting the main improvement of the new M70 Classic breech as above:

M98 Mauser
Strong points:
1. Strong breeching and gas handling.
2. Positive extractor system.
3. Neat and effective safety lug.
4. Simple overall mechanical design.
5. Positive and controlled ejector.
6. Direct acting safety.
Weak points:
1. Lack of receiver rigidity and bedding due to the notched siderail and slender tang.
2. Slow lock time.
3. Inconvenient floorplate design.
4. Bolt-handle shape and safety limiting scope placement.
5. Direct-pull trigger.

Pre-'64 Winchester Model 70
Strong points:
1. Strong and rigid receiver.
2. Integral bolt handle (and backup lug).
4. Adjustable override trigger.
5. Direct acting safety.
6. Smooth and positive functioning.
7. Positive and controlled ejection.
8. Exceptionally clean and attractive lines.
Weak points:
1. Springfield breech and gas handling.
2. Inconvenient floorplate release.
3. Two-piece trigger guard/floorplate assembly.

Agree or disagree, the latest M70 Classic is great in my book, an improvement over the Pre-'64 if it was made to specs at the factory to start with.

Nothing quite tops a Mauser 98 overall though, when the basic military action kinks are ironed out by the gunsmith or a highend commercial version is had.

Now the experts can pick this apart. There are finer details to be pointed out. Look at the ejector of a Mauser 98 versus the M70, whether Pre-'64 or Classic ...

All three actions discussed here are Controlled Round Feeding and Ejecting: CRFE.

Of these three, however, only the true M-98 is Controlled Round Feeding Extracting and Ejecting: CRFEE

CRFEE also applies to a CZ 550 Medium or Magnum, which has the best of both the M-98 and M70 Classic, except for the trigger and safety issues, which can be replaced, though some prefer them that way.

I think I am aboard now. To answere you questions, I have 416 Rem Mag M70 Classic. The only thing done was to replace the mag spring.

It is the most accurate rifle I own, placing three shots in a slightly enlarged hole at 100 yds. An excellent rifle.

Thank you all. I will return with more questions later. It is really wonderfull to get so good answers (rip)so fast and it seems to the amount of readers on this thread that more than I learned something new.
Carry on with this thread if other owners of this gun needs to know more.

As a thought.. The earlier M70 classics came with a hang tag that alluded the action to being "pre-64" in design. That along with "The Claw" were USRAC's main marketing points of the new action. Perhaps this is where David confusing his rifle with a pre-64 rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by DavidReed:
As a thought.. The earlier M70 classics came with a hang tag that alluded the action to being "pre-64" in design. That along with "The Claw" were USRAC's main marketing points of the new action. Perhaps this is where David confusing his rifle with a pre-64 rifle.

Yes, a common confusion due to the advertising.

One thing for sure is the Win. M-70 Safari classics CFR in .416 Rem (circa about 1998 as I recall)have gone out of sight price wise, so if you have one it might be a good idea to hang on to it or sell it. I have seen several sell lately for $2400 and a number of them advertised for over $2000, so am considering selling mine. The .375s and .458 are going for considerably less.

Damn, I just converted one to a Lott!!

Geronimo

Its because so few where made.They made at most 125 a year.I was told only 800-1000 416 rem mags were made.I could have sold my nib one for $3000 last jan.I bought my first one for $623 in 1997 or 98 .It has a different style stock and is a Super Grade.I wish i had bought 20 of them now.

quote:

Originally posted by dgr416:
Its because so few where made.They made at most 125 a year.I was told only 800-1000 416 rem mags were made.I could have sold my nib one for $3000 last jan.I bought my first one for $623 in 1997 or 98 .It has a different style stock and is a Super Grade.I wish i had bought 20 of them now.

There is one for sale in Norway for 8900,- norwegian kroner. One kr is about $0,15.

http://www.jaktogfriluft.no/kat/000039.asp

This is a list of used guns for sale in Norway. Most of the prices is far more expencive than what you will normally see in america.

There is a like new used 416 rem mag model 70 on gunsamerica today for $1600.Thats not a bad deal for what gun you get.I just bought another one myself.I get every one I see for under $1000.I missed a stainless model 700 416 last year for $800 it was coated and had been magnaported for $800 .I had already bought a new one for $1000 .I like them too but I trust the winchester way more when the chips are down.