I asked this under another post but thought I would break it out and maybe get more interest. If you were going to use a 450/400 on Cape Buffalo what bullet would you use?

Hornady 400gn DGX, A bud did a test and the Hornadys out penetrated the Woodleighs 6" @ 50yds in his bullet box, although the woodies showed greater expansion.
Both bullets retained in excess of 90% of there original weight.

I have killed two buffalo with the woodleigh softs. Plenty of penetration/expansion without too much penetration. Most bullets found on off-side under the skin.

Swift a-frames

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:
Swift a-frames

Good bullet, but out of a double rifle ???????


.

Couple of years ago I shot a buff at about 40 yards quartering to.

I shot it forward of the right front shoulder. It went 30 yards, crashed and gave the death moan. The bullet was recovered just under the skin on the left rear ham.

Bullet was a 400 gr. Woodleigh soft @ 2150 FPS fired from a .450/.400 3 1/4" double.

Best of luck!

Don

quote:

Good bullet, but out of a double rifle

Well actually it will be shot out of a bolt action from my 400PDK wildcat. I just happen to get 450/400 velocity+ and plan to use it on a Buffalo next year. So I was looking for a good .410-.411 bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

Good bullet, but out of a double rifle

Well actually it will be shot out of a bolt action from my 400PDK wildcat. I just happen to get 450/400 velocity+ and plan to use it on a Buffalo next year. So I was looking for a good .410-.411 bullet.

My apologise.


I should have remembered !!!


Sounds good.

quote:

My apologise.


I should have remembered !!!

No apology needed that is for sure. Unless you had happen to read my other thread or knew I was playing with a 411 wildcat when someone asked about 450/400 bullets the norm would to first think double then maybe Ruger #1. Who would have thought bolt??

Others actually shooting a 450/400 double might be wondering the same. Is the A Frame a no no for a double?

Thanks for the input.

Any of the above will get the job done!

quote:

Bullet was a 400 gr. Woodleigh soft @ 2150 FPS fired from a .450/.400 3 1/4" double.

At the current time I'm shooting 400gr DGXs. The have ended the life of several hogs and a number of water jugs. While I can push that bullet to 2371 my accurate hunting load is 2256. At that level I don't even get as pressure ring around the head of the base of the case.

I've never used a 400gr Woodleigh. I assume it would have no issue with velocity in the 2250 range. Other than the penetration test Jerry discussed any other comparisons of the two?

Or since I've never hunted the "black death" am I worried for nothing and since the DGX is accurate in my rifle should I just shut up and practice?

Paul, I think the Woodleigh is a bit soft for Buff at the velocities you are getting. The Hornady's seem to be getting good reports. Ask Bobc his opinion.

quote:

Paul, I think the Woodleigh is a bit soft for Buff at the velocities you are getting. The Hornady's seem to be getting good reports. Ask Bobc his opinion.

Thanks. I'll give him a shout.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:
Swift a-frames

Good bullet, but out of a double rifle ???????

Excellent bullet out of a NEWER double rifle. Chris Sells shot both of his bulls in 2008 or 2009 with a Heym 450/400 using 400 grain a-frames. I always load the Swift bullets 1-2 grains less on reloads due to pressure differences. I am using the 570 grain Swift a-frames in my 500.

Do you have a source on the A-frame. Their sight doesn't list the .411 that I can see.

Hi ramrod,as an aussie, for years we couldn't get anything else but woodleigh bullets for those wonderful cal's so I have not tried any of the others. But I have used woodleighs in a 470NE,450-400NE,500jeffery,404,jeffery also in my 9.3x62 & 300 H&H mag.I have shot a number of african game including buffalo and also the water buffalo down here and have never had a problem killing game with them and I think thats the answer. if you want to cut them open after and make surgical notes on "how far it penitrated" etc use a solid. For my money if it dead it doesn't matter

quote:

if you want to cut them open after and make surgical notes on "how far it penitrated" etc use a solid. For my money if it dead it doesn't matter

I could care less as to how far it penetrated. I want a quick humane kill. Looking at the woodleigh site they list impact velocity of 1900-2200 so my 2250 starting velocity would not be out of line.

Paul,
By the time the bullet reaches the animal it should be close enough to recommended impact velocity!

quote:

By the time the bullet reaches the animal it should be close enough to recommended impact velocity!

Rusty that was my thought as well. Unless he was standing on top of me. I have no doubt the woodleigh is a good bullet. My buddy using a 340gr 416 for about everything he shoots in Alaska.

Just trying to find some first hand experience with the DGX. Since I already have about 400 of them and they shoot MOA in my rifle it would save me working up a load on a new bullet.

I may be wrong on this, but didn't Ivan Carter use a 450/400 last year? Somebody said he had a bigger bore on order, but you could PM him and ask. I'm sure he has a lot of experience with the Hornady DGX and DGS. Course, he's probably in the field right now, but it's a thought.

I think Ivan uses the 450 3 1/4"

WOODLEIGH FMJ and round nose soft bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:
Swift a-frames

Good bullet, but out of a double rifle ???????

Excellent bullet out of a NEWER double rifle. Chris Sells shot both of his bulls in 2008 or 2009 with a Heym 450/400 using 400 grain a-frames. I always load the Swift bullets 1-2 grains less on reloads due to pressure differences. I am using the 570 grain Swift a-frames in my 500.

Dirk

Why a NEWER double rifle ?

Do they attach ribs in a different way now that isn't affected by solid parts of the bullet ?

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Dirk
Why a NEWER double rifle ?
Do they attach ribs in a different way now that isn't affected by solid parts of the bullet ?

The Swift bullet does develop more chamber pressure than most other softs. I don't believe it's the material of the bullet or the a-frame rib of the bullet, it's the greater bearing surface of the bullet that elevates the chamber pressure. That's why it always takes a grain or two less powder than a Woodie bullet. Personally I don't believe a Swift bullet would be anymore rough on a 100 year old DR than a solid Woodie. So to answer your question, I personally would shoot them in older DR's but there are folk with older DR's that might not be savy to the increased pressures that can be found using a Swift bullet if you don't lower the powder charge.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Do you have a source on the A-frame. Their sight doesn't list the .411 that I can see.

You have to call the factory, they have them, if by chance they are out tell one of the girls there to put you on a list for some many boxes they get them out fairly quick.

500NE, Whats your thought to the use of Woodleigh Hydro Mono Bullets with doubles?

If you were going to choose Hornady ammo, watch out, there is a 400 gr Roundnose built bEFORE the Dangerous Game Ammo. This is a copper jacket bullet, NOT the Steel jacketed bullet of the DGX series. I would use the new DGX or Woodleigh. I would also have a few solids available for certain shots where you want ultimate penetration and bone crunching capability! Let your PH give you guidance on which to use.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
500NE, Whats your thought to the use of Woodleigh Hydro Mono Bullets with doubles?

Yes, I would use them - and have done so.


I fired about 5 or 6 out of my 500/465 H&H because Geoff needed some Double Rifle recoveries and my gun was the closest to big game so they made some up specially for the 465 (so I am told). AFAIC, if Geoff says it's OK, it's OK by me as his attention to detail
is second to none and he uses DR's so is not going to do anything that causes a problem with them.

No problems with my gun, worked very well on the Buff, very well IMHO.

I am not the only one who has used them in DR's, including expensive Holland Royals.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
500NE, Whats your thought to the use of Woodleigh Hydro Mono Bullets with doubles?

Yes, I would use them - and have done so.


I fired about 5 or 6 out of my 500/465 H&H because Geoff needed some Double Rifle recoveries and my gun was the closest to big game so they made some up specially for the 465 (so I am told). AFAIC, if Geoff says it's OK, it's OK by me as his attention to detail
is second to none and he uses DR's so is not going to do anything that causes a problem with them.

No problems with my gun, worked very well on the Buff, very well IMHO.

I am not the only one who has used them in DR's, including expensive Holland Royals.

I will be trying the .468 bullet out on eles this fall and report the results here.

465H&H

quote:

Let your PH give you guidance on which to use.

Heck of an idea. I had done just that. Great minds etc. His comment was that he had seen more Woodleigh than the new Hornady. But based on what he had seen he said if it was accurate in my rifle to not worry about trying anything else. Just practice. If I did want to work up another load simply add a solid just in case.

He also agreed that he would NOT use the older Hornady. Since a magnet sticks to mine I'm ok.

I'll dig out my bullet tomorrow and send a photo. I used woodleigh 400 sp on plains game and had one penetrate only about 18" on a frontal shot on a wildebeast. Killed him dead, but pancaked despite hitting no bone and penetrating only to front of paunch. Could have been a fluke or a bad batch but it sure caught my attention. I don't like to think what it would have done on a buff shoulder. It was a puzzler since woodleighs are the go to bullet for the old NE's. Bob

quote:

Originally posted by bobc:
I'll dig out my bullet tomorrow and send a photo. I used woodleigh 400 sp on plains game and had one penetrate only about 18" on a frontal shot on a wildebeast. Killed him dead, but pancaked despite hitting no bone and penetrating only to front of paunch. Could have been a fluke or a bad batch but it sure caught my attention. I don't like to think what it would have done on a buff shoulder. It was a puzzler since woodleighs are the go to bullet for the old NE's. Bob

Bob

By pancaked, do you mean it mushroomed ?

18 inches - what do you mean by "penetrating only to front of paunch."

Did it take out the heart / lung ?


I have seen a mushroomed bullet not penetrate the back of the chest area / diaphram type area because it had mushroomed perfectly - and killed the beast.

Here's a picture. On the left is the 400 sp that killed the wildebeast. It was a direct frontal shot, slipped between two ribs, and took out top of the heart. The one on the right came from a hartebeast and performed perfectly.

The bullet in question had basically no shank remaining. It mushroomed to 1.13 inches, but remaining length was only .5 inch. Weight was 310 grains.

Is sure killed the wildebeast well. My PH was Eduard Katzke who is now president of PHASA with worlds of DG experience, knows Geoff Woodleigh well, etc. He told me he was concerned about the bullet performance and would use something else on buffalo, as this one did not penetrate well (only to front of the paunch on a frontal shot). He did wonder of this was from a particularly soft batch of bullets. The other bullet had great shank length left and worked like a charm, so this could be a fluke. However, Katte had a real concern that this bullet as performed for me may not be counted on to go through a leg or shoulder bone on a side shot.

A few other issues. This was from a 55 grain 'Tropical' rifle. Muzzle vel. is about 1950, so impact probably at 1900. This is a the low end of expected velocity for this buller, so it should be stressed much less than the 2150 fps usually quoted as 'factory' for the 450-400.

For some reason, Woodleigh at that time didn't make a protected point .411. I think that would work like a charm.

I have no dog in this fight, just perfect performance on a medium size plains game that makes me concerned that the bullet is a bit soft for a marginal shot on a buffalo. Bob

My experience with the Woodleighs on Buff, makes me think they might be a bit too soft also, after talking with Bob, I decided to wait and see how the Hornadys do, before switching brands. I like Woodleighs, use them in several calibers. My experience is not definitive or scientific, I'll just relate what I know. I have 5 400 grain sp's recovered from the chest cavity of a Buff I shot a few years ago. 3 of them expanded to approx .940 diameter and retained weight was 399 grains each, perfect textbook mushrooms. The other two hit bone, still weighed around 370 gr. each, and expanded to around .890. It was abit late in the day and we were 11 miles from the truck, basically did not do an autopsy for actual penetration. On the face, it looked like perfect expansion and weight retention, but none were recovered from under the skin, on the opposite side, they were within the chest cavity. My gut feeling is that they expanded a bit too quickly which limited penetration more than might be expected. This is just MY OPINION, not trying to claim it is anything but. My rifle is a 60 gr. rifle, and my handloads chrono'd consistantly at 2030 fps from 24" barrels using 80.5 gr. of 4831. The average range for the shots were 40-60 yards. Based on my limited experience, I would be apprehensive about driving these at 2300 fps, on buffalo. Just my .02.

Here is a small sampling of bullets fired in a mix of 6" wet newspaper, 5/8" Hardy Board, 2 by 6 treated Pine, and 36" of wet newspaper.

It is not animal flesh and bone but gives a direct comparison of the DGX versus the Woodleigh. Each of the bullets was fired in different quadrants of the same set-up.

Hope this helps.

Just My Opinion

The Swift A-Frames are great-- They are made only by Swift from swaged down .416 bullets to .411 diameter. Special order them directly from Swift. They do have a long bearing
surface, maybe a little more chamber pressure.
The chanelure is in the wrong place a bit for crimping 450/400 but I haven't needed to crimp.

North Fork 400 gr. soft nose on the first shot (right barrel) and North Fork 400 gr. cup nose solid on the
second shot (left barrel) in a double gun. The solids take 1&1/2
less grains of powder to regulate in the same place. This is my no. 1 combo of choice in a K-Gun with 24 inch bbls. 450/400NE3 inch

In a bolt gun for Buffalo (416 Rigby) I use the
North Fork Soft Nose or the Swift A-Frame for the first shot all others in the magazine are
North Fork Cup Point Solids 400 grain.

Why the solids for #2 shots, it seems I never get a decent 2nd shot. They always seem to be end to end one way or the other. The name of the game then becomes "Penetration" to create
as much damage as possible to insure a "dead" buffalo.

Hope this helps and good hunting.
Tetonka