I`m just curious if something like this exists ? The .50 Alaskan certainly is more than enough for a brush carbine , but has someone ever build (or tried) a bigger gun ? Thanks , J�rgen

50 Kodiak Express, the cartridge is similar to the 50 Alaskan but about 0.100 inch longer in overall length, giving more powder capacity. Photos below show one I worked with a few years ago. I have a future project of a big 50 on a M1886 Browning. The gun in the photo is on a Marlin action, however, the Marlin is really too small for the big cartridges. I finally will be doing some proof work with the cartridges for the below rifle in a month or so. I did some proof testing 3 years ago (presssure & velocity) and attained 5000 ft/lbs. It's been a back burner pooject for me, just not enough time to play with the rifle!!! It is really fun to shoot, however, and for grins I would love to go on a hunt with Ray and see the expression on Ray's face when this rifle tags 'ol M'Bogo. Cowboy Action Shooting in it's finest hour.

PS, the rifle weighs 9-1/2 pounds, balances and points like a Purdy, and is based on a extremely modified (read: expensive work) M1895 Marlin, Pac Nor barrel,thick recoil pad, mercury recoil absorbers in the stock, through bolted, and many other modifications to withstand the heavy recoil.



[ 03-04-2003, 18:54: Message edited by: John Ricks ]

Maybe Kev will jump in here and post pics of his 86 Win. that he had rebarelled to 50/110. He is getting 2200 fps with a 525 grain bullet.

The deal with 50's on lever guns is you gotta start with an action big enuff!! 1886 is first choice.

The Marlin is far too small, I would never build another 50 on a Marlin.

The 1886 project I will be working on is for one of the AR posters. We are thinkiing out of the box for a parent cartridge to use brass from, might be 500 Nitro or even 500 AHR or Jeffery. Maybe a 470 instead of a 50, for easer feeding.

We are looking for around 6000 ft/lbs out of a 10 pound or so lever gun. The cartridge and pressure levels will be taylored to the strength of the lever gun.

And the current generation of nice bronze solids with big flat noses, or Norbert's Super Penetrator, are just crying to be used in a lever gun. I have found that the lever guns feed the flat nose solids better than bolt action rifles due to the straight line feeding.

Although I am a true Mauser fan, I would have no problem going up against Africa's toughest with a properly constructed big bore lever gun, shooting correct bullets.

HI,

I have a win86 new model in a 50-110 its case length is 2.4 the 50 Alaskan is 2.2.It will push the same weight bullet as the 50AK but about 250-300 fps more. Thanks,Kev

Kev: Post photos!!!!

I am waiting on a 450/110 by the same smith that built by Dave Clay the same smith that built Kev's rifle. Action is a new production 86 extra lite. I went with the 450/110 over the 50/110 because it eliminated the need of a new barrel. Could spend more on extras...

For those of you that havn't been following this it is based on a 50/110 case necked down to .458 Modern brass is available from Starline for 75 cents apiece. Cases are formed with a single pass through the sizing die. Dave is making the dies himself and provides a set with the rifle.

Starting loads are 81 grains of RL15 for 2300 fps with a 430 grain hard cast bullet. Max load tops out at about 2430 fps. My goal is to duplicate the 450 Nitro getting 2150-2200 fps with a 460-480 grain bullet out of a lever gun.

Gun will have
Ashley sights
Scout scope mounts
Full length mag tube with reinforced hanger
Baked on polymer over parkerize finish matte black
Reinforced stock and forearm
kickeze pad
removable muzzle brake

Supposed to be getting finish applied this week. I will post pics and results when I get it.

Jeff

[ 03-05-2003, 09:26: Message edited by: jnc91 ]

Ricks,
Wouldn't surprise me, I killed a few buff with a military 8x57 with german ww2 ball ammo, and every third or fouth one misfired...thats when you would have enjoyed the expression on my face, but when one screams s---t loud enough it scares even the mightest of black bulls...

Obviously my question was not too dumb ......!I have a Browning 1886 in 348 Winchester in my closet and it begs to be rebarreled in a big 50 , but before doing stuff like this I need some good advice . Don`t wanna do it twice! According to the velocities listed above , will it be possible to use hard lead bullets , maybe at slightly reduced (and still more than enough) speeds ?
The 50/110 sounds like a very practical and economical solution to me , does anybody of you have any cartridge drawings ? Thanks so far , J�rgen

Ray,

One of these years, before you and I both run out of time and meet the 'Ol Grim Reaper, I hope to book a journey with you and follow around in your footsteps in Africa.

Take a look at King Babboon's post in Spear Hunting, I guess I could carry a spear for backup, you take the 8x57 with some of that misfiring ammo, and we shall hunt Buffalo??? Should be real exciting, we could call it "The Last Hunt". And "Ol Reaper" will be the suprised one when we show up at his door packing a 8x57 and a spear. What a way to check out, about the same as getting shot by a 21 year old jealous husband.

Jurgen, if no one else chimes in with drawings, I wil take some photos tonight and post.

50-110 is in Barnes "Cartridges of The World".

[ 03-10-2003, 22:41: Message edited by: John Ricks ]

HI,

MR. Ricks sorry for the late response, I will try to post some more pics of my 50-110. The last ones were not that good so I will try again. Thanks,Kev

Jurgen
50-110 has same rim diameter as the 45/70 and also the 348win(50-110 is the parent case of 348) and is about 2.6" long. will have to look up drawings at home

Jurgen,
I don't think the Browning 1886 was ever made in .348 Win., did you mean a Browning 71 in .348 Win.? I'm just curious as I have several of these rifles but have never heard of an 1886 in .348.

Thanks for all your in-depth replies guys !!!!
Seems to be an interesting topic for more people than me .......and yes my Browning is an 71 model , sorry , but I`m at work and type stuff like this in a quiet minute during the day !
The comparison with the 348 Win. gets me closer to what I want to know , although a picture of all these cartridges together would be just great !

Below is a photo of a few 50 Cal. lever gun cartridges compared with 45-70, 458 Win, 458 Lott, and 500 Nitro. Description follows the photo.



Starting from the left: 45-70, then a 348 case, next is a .510 Kodiak with 450 Barnes, at a length to function through the M1895 Modified Marlin. The next cartridge is also a .510 Kodiak, with a 535 Woodleigh Soft that has the exposed lead trimmed off, to make a wide flat nose that will function through a tubular magazine, and a cartridge length that will function through a M71 Browning. Note, longer cartridge length gives us more case capacity for powder. Then a 458 Win, and a .510 case with a 458 Win case inserted, to show the larger .510 case diameter and hence more powder capacity. (some of my 510 loads have 85 grains of powder,and the extended length for the M71 holds nearly 100). After the two cases we have a 458 Lott and then a 500 Nitro 3-1/4".

Some notes: The .510 case is formed from stretched 348 Win brass, could also use 50-110 and trim. 50-110 I think has a 2.4" case length, the .510 Kodiak has 2.330".

What we are after in the M71 50 caliber is a good case capacity that will give us the velocity desired at a pressure level that will be OK in the M71. Big case capacity is what it is all about, I will be working with various 50 cal. cartridges using cases from 500 Nitro, 500 Jeffery, and 50-110 cartridges to obtain a large case capacity yet also have feeding out of the magazine. Lots of work here, I will make up dummy rounds first for feeding, then select the best one, chamber up a test barrel for my M98 Proof gun, and run some Oehler M43 trials.

Some work has been done with a 50 cal. lever gun using shortened 460 Weatherby brass, can't recall who did this. Not a bad idea, gives good powder capacity.

I would really love to obtain more info on the "hot" 50-110 loads some of the guys are using, maybe Kev can help out?

HI,

MR. Ricks I have shot my 50-110 with 525 grain WFN, Cast Performance bullets, I chronogragh them at 2200fps. This is out of my win86 with a 22.5 inch barrel, I used H4895 and started with 79 grains and work up to 81.5 grains.I know I could even get more into the case but I am happy with 2200fps with a 525grain bullet.I used starline 50-110 brass and it is very strong, and I had no sticking or notice and sign of high pressure at all.I will say I would only do this in a newer win86 or 71 rifle, I think I could get the 525 grain up to around 2240-2250 fps but once again I feel no need to as I am happy with what I got.I also will say the recoil is not to bad as the weight of the rifle is a little over 9 pounds with scope and the muzzel brake really keeps the muzzel down.The muzzel is removeable, but I will keep it on as it is short and the noise does not bother me. Thanks,Kev

It`s too bad you can`t see me , standing here with my mouth open , astounded by the things you do ........! Thanks for the pics , I printed them out(quality is only ho hum) , may I ask you to mail them to me , PLEASE ?
CPO-P3@motorrad.net
Now the worst part : Cost??? Is it possible to rebore the barrel ?What`s the minimum that has to be done ?

Cost? I would not dare put a price on the project until I have a couple more rifles of this nature asembled. Still working out some improvements in the area of recoil management, both for the comfort of the shooter and the reliabilty of the rifle. Magazines require attention, as the front magazine attachment has been known to depart the rifle due to the battering of a tube full of heavy cartridges. Not nice to spew the cartridges on the ground when you need a fast second shot!!! Plus the complete magazine tube and feeding mechanism need rebuilding for the larger cartridge. There is more to building a rifle of this type than simply screwing on a 50 caliber barrel. After all, we are talking of near 6000 ft/lbs energy, so caution is advised in construction.

Rebore of the original barrel will not work, as it is far too light. We need a heavier barrel with some up front weight to control the muzzle rise. Take another look at the Marlin in the above photo, is has a large diameter barrel, gun weighs 9-1/2 pounds, handles and shoots very well, even without the brake.

Thanks a lot John , for the private pics , for your time to explain all this to me and for the further input on this topic in the (hopefully near) future !
A project of this caliber obviously takes more than just a big barrel .....Recoil without a brake will be nothing to sneeze at !
Is there a possibility to mount a scope on a 71 Browning with its top ejector ? Maybe a scout type forward position ?

Yes on the Scout scope. I have a uncontoured one piece scout base, compliments of Leupold,and a Scout scope, also compliments of Leupold, that I will install on the Marlin 50 in the above photo. I have to machine the base to fit the barrel contour, it takes Leupold Weaver Style QR rings (QRW for short).

When I get it put together I will post another photo.

Now we`re getting closer .......actually too close , your explanations sound so easy , you`re making me dream of it !

I had my Browning out of the gun closet during the weekend , I can already see myself shooting one of these big Fifties ...! I do have moulds from 425gr up to 580gr. for my 50/70 , all without GC , will I be able to use them at reduced speeds ?Or will the twist rate be too much off at these weights ???Thanks , J�rgen

HI,

JURGEN,What is the twist rate on your Browning. When I had MR. Clay make my win86 in a 50-110 I had a badger barrel put on with a 1:26 twist rate so it would balance the heavier bullets, but I also have shot some 500 grain jacketed bullets and it shot them well. I have a mould for a 570 grain WFN that I want to try as I think from the fps I have gotten with 525 grain,2200fps, I should come close to 2000-250 fps with a 570 . Thanks,Kev

Hi Kev , I have no idea what the twist is .....it`s still the original .348 Winchester barrel . But in my opinion a heavy bullet is the way to go , the trajectory isn`t all that flat from the beginning ( no reason why it should !) so it`s not a big sacrifice if it gets a bit worse . My mould is a 580gr. from Jim Allison in Australia , WFN without GC. Shoots pretty good out of the 16" Encore in 50/70 Govt. but we only tried it at 25 meters so far !Recoil ist pretty good in a pistol like this ....!