Dang,
That telephone number to Captech International is staying pretty busy.
I'll keep trying ...

Jim,
Thanks for the brass pointers.
I have some PRVI brass on the way from Grafs, will give a try.

Also:
I have called and talked to a person at Captech International.

Same Kathy Greenhaw, Office Manager, is there, handling orders.

Same Marc Jamison is there as Engineer/Consultant.

They have not finished getting all the machines set up.
Will be up to speed and same "best quality soon."

They are out of stock on .338 Lapua right now,
but they make it frequently.

They might consider supplying basic cylindrical Rigby/Lapua if there is enough interest in it.

I am waiting for a call back from Kathy Greenhaw,
so I can start showing some interest in Jamison International basic cylindrical Rigby/Lapua brass.
I have lots of uses for that!
Any emails or phone calls in support of this interest would be appreciated.

http://www.captechintl.com/products.html

"All calibers are offered as empty cartridge cases and as loaded ammunition.
For more information call us at 1 (605) 791-1974"


General Questions:
Phone: 1-605-791-1974
E-mail: info@captechintl.com

---------------------------------

Managing Partners;
Amir Sofer
Phone: 1-917-439-4867
E-mail: amir.s@captechintl.com

Asher Wagh
Phone: 1-347-374-1182
E-mail: asher.w@captechintl.com

----------------------------------

Production Manager;
Chris Freeman
Phone: 1-605-791-1974
E-mail: chris.f@captechintl.com

---------------------------------

Office Manager;
Kathy Greenhaw
Phone: 1-605-791-1974
E-mail: kathy.g@captechintl.com

---------------------------------

Information Technology (IT) Manager;
Matthew Roden
Phone: 1-605-791-1974
E-mail: matt.r@captechintl.com

Correction:

Kathy Greenhaw office manager knows what is going on there:

Captech has 1500 pieces of Jamison .338 Lapua Magnum brass on hand.

They also have 130 pieces of Lapua basic on hand,
checking to see what can be done with that ...

Will be comparing

1. Jamison Basic Cylindrical .338 Lapua Magnum brass
2. Jamison .338 Lapua Magnum brass
3. PRVI .338 Lapua Magnum brass
4. Norma .338 Lapua Magnum brass
5. Hornady .338 Lapua Magnum brass
6. Lapua .338 Lapua Magnum brass
7. Quality Cartridge 500 Mbogo-3" brass

to see what works best in the 500 Mbogo Short 2.7" aka 50-12.

Dan J. Wynne at McGowen Precision Barrels has responded.

Dave Manson is still on vacation.

Wow! One day delivery by FedEx of PRVI brass from Grafs, already in hand.

Will fireform to .500 Lapua, and see how they survive.

Then do the Jamison brass when I get it.

The Jamison Basic will only need necking down and trimming to 2.690"

The Lapua-made .338 Lapua Magnum brass: Only lost one out of 150 to minor distal neck crack on fire forming from .338 to .500.

Will keep tabs ...

So how does the PRVI look - good finish, nice weight?

Jim,
I thought you would never ask.

Serbian (PRVI Partizan) versus Finnish (Lapua) brass,
Lapua on top, PRVI (PPU) on bottom:



Lapua on left from base view, on right from neck view:





Hard to tell from photos, but Lapua is only slightly shinier than PRVI.
Lapua neck-shoulder and shoulder edge is slightly sharper formed from Lapua factory than from PRVI factory,
both are new brass, unfired.
Both brands have rims of same thickness (+0.055", hard to measure with my obtuse calipers) but with slightly different bevels on bottom of rims.
Both brands have substantial neck wall thickness of about 0.015".
PRVI Partizan brass case weight is about 5 grains greater than Lapua.
Tiny differences in uniformity favor Lapua, but PRVI seems to be good stuff.
Will see how it reacts to being fire formed and necked up.
All this based on just 4 random pieces of each brand, because I am lazy.:


Price-wise, for $1.60 per piece the PRVI beats Lapua ($2.80 per piece) all to heck.

So you can call it the 510 Djokovic.

Some of us play tennis.

500 Mbogo Short:

500 MS = 500 Maria Sharapova ... if naming for tennis player:



At 6'2" she is not short like the cartridge, but it is a beautiful cartridge, 500 MS.

Left to right:
500 Mbogo, 500 Mbogo Short

Here is the Hornady .338 Lapua Magnum brass.
Hornady is about 20 grains lighter than Lapua brand, has a slightly greater rim diameter, and a slightly greater neck wall thickness.









Coming soon: Jamison Intermational .338 Lapua Magnum brass from Captech International, LLC.

Brass trivia:

Extractor groove diameter varies with different make of .338 Lapua Magnum brass.

Measured for 10 pieces of each brand/make of new brass:

Lapua brand:
Range: .508" to .509"
Average: .5083" or ~.508" (7 of 10 were .508", 3 of 10 were .509")

PRVI brand:
Range .510" to .514"
Average: .5119" or ~.512"
Half of them would not fit into my shell-holder for .338 Lapua Magnum, had to use a 45-70 shell-holder for those.
Those of .511" or smaller diameter fit the usual sheel-holder.
Will have to see if that makes any difference in the way they fit the bolt face, feed, extract, and eject.
Same goes for the Hornady, which is smaller than standard Lapua in the extractor groove diameter.

Hornady brand:
Range: .481" to .488"
Average: .4859" or ~.486"


QualCart 500 Mbogo brass, made from Hornady basic:
Range: .491" to .493"
Average: exactly .492" (8 of 10 were .492")

Jamison International brand pending, from Captech International: Jamison/Captech, JC brass ... will it walk on water?

PRVI no good for blowing out to .500-caliber and certainly not for .510-caliber.

It may be OK for use as .338 LM,
but probably not as good as Hornady or Lapua brands, for any use!

I fired only one PRVI with BAD result,
but did 10 each of Hornady and Lapua, and all 10 were good,
for preliminary forming of 500 Mbogo Short.







Well, that makes 160 of the Lapua so far with only one minor neck split at case mouth.
0.6 % failure rate, so far.

1 for 1 on the PRVI and it cracked all the way down into the shoulder and opened up circumferentially as well as longitudinally.
100 % failure rate on the PRVI so far.

0 % failure rate on the Hornady so far.

Maybe metallurgical issue?

Lapua brass on left, Hornady brass on right:



Hornady averages 2.689" long when fire-formed to .500 neck.
Lapua averages 2.686".
Size in 49-10 dies, then neck and seat using 500 jeffery dies.
Finally, a good use for those 500 Jeffery dies!
Necked up to .510-cal and trimmed/uniformed to 2.685", with 0.700" of bullet nose projection,
as with the 535-grain S&H brass FN shown,
the COL is 3.385" with both brands of brass.

When the brass grows to 2.690" trim-to length, probably after first fire-forming in 500 Mbogo Short chamber,
the COL will be 3.390".
Many bullets can be loaded shorter than that.
So it will be easy to fit into a standard Mauser 98 or Ruger Hawkeye (3.425" box length).
Of course a Mauser 98 with 3.501" box length using Duane Wiebe bottom metal will be the cat's meow.
Some bullets can be loaded longer, and make better use of that .255" PS-free-bore: Accuracy.

Neck dimensions on brass so far:

Hornady .338 LM:
Neck-2 (at case mouth) = .533"
Neck-1 (at shoulder) = .533"
This will be slick with current brass max neck diameter of .535", and reamer neck minimum diameter of .539".

Lapua .338 LM:
Neck-2 = .532"
Neck-1 = .538"
This might prove usable without neck turning or reaming, as it will be a tight inital fit but might thin out at neck-1 after fire-forming in the 50-12 chamber.

Lapua brass is thicker in the former shoulder area which is now part of neck, below that bright line on the neck,
where the .338-caliber neck-shoulder junction used to be, neck-1.
Outside turning below that line would sharpen up the shoulder on the Lapua brand brass.
Never a dreaded donut on the 49-10.
The start of one is here on the 50-12.

Very happy with all this. Hornady brass is looking very good for the 500 Mbogo Short.
And the 500 Mbogo headstamped brass from Quality Cartridge will be a close match to that,
when trimmed down to "Short" length.
It is Hornady basic, and never a hint of a problem.
Good metallurgy.

This cartridge has it all, including some case body taper and "some" shoulder.
I wonder if that S&H bullet can be made to feed?

Will see how the JC brass is next.

Extremely good info Ron...

The S&H can be made to feed properly, just might take Rusty a little more time. I seem to recollect the meplat was somewhere 70%-72% with a fairly sharp edge; it would be perfect in bolt guns with a 67%-68%meplat and a radiused edge --- that was Sam's solution to optimizing the BBW#13 nose profile. As is, the S&H bullets are darn nice looking bullets and I believe the few that Michael tested gave excellent bullet box results!

Looks like the world is looking pretty good for .51 caliber guys with 3.4" magazine boxes...take your pick with the 500 Mbogo Short or the slightly shorter 500 AccRel Nyati... Very good!

Hope to test some Nyati in Nov-Dec. Thanks to everyone for pushing these things forward and getting some light fast projectiles for all-around hunting.

Michael's due to test some this week.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:


Ooh-la-la! Pretty picture of PRVI brass!
Less than $160/per 100 pieces.
Nicely annealed appearance.

Seyfried's Law of Wildcat Brass Forming: "Anneal before necking up and after necking down."

Corollary: "New brass direct from factory annealing is great for blowing out to larger caliber in fireforming."

PRVI annealed it after they necked the cylinder down to .338 Lapua Magnum.
How nice.
Looks as good as Lapua brand.
If it is a little thinner at neck and shoulder, then inside neck reaming might not be needed.

I forgot to pose the question after the neck separation on your single attempted fire forming.

Is it possible that PRVI annealed the neck/ shoulder area before it was sized down for the 338 LM? Or perhaps the temperature and timing of the annealing process was off resulting in an improperly annealing process?

I wonder what would happen if you re-annealed the neck/shoulder area or a couple of cases and attempted to fire form them? If this worked it could keep the PRVI brass as a viable alternative though it might require weight sorting of the brass...

Anyway thanks for your efforts... It'll certainly make things easier for me after my 49-10 FN Mauser rifle arrives.

Jim,
I am not going to mess with it.
Might be as simple as some contaminant in the PRVI brass.
Maybe Serbia gets its brass cups from China,
and they got Chinese dogfood mixed into the brass in China.
The oversize extractor groove diameter on the PRVI brass is a problem too.

Smaller extractor groove diameter on Hornady is OK.

The S&H bullet is a worst case scenario for feeding difficulty and maximal overall length,
for magazine feeding.

It gets better from there,
but even a Ruger Hawkeye might handle that worst case scenario.

Ron,

I definately understand - quality comes with cost.

I'm on my iPad right now so have limited access to 338 LM data. That said, the CIP data that I could access indicates a 13,24mm (0.5212598") extractor groove diameter for the 338 LM. I have no idea what the +/- tolerance is, but with this specification the PRVI brass is under spec groove diameter...

Oh well, even without the PRVI brass - looks like we have a darn good spread of quality brass to use in the 49-10, the 500 MS, and the 500 ARN... Definately looking forward to your review of the JI/CI brass. If its of high quality maybe enough interest could be generated for a purchase of 338 LM cylinder brass without the 338 LM headstamp.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Ron,

I definately understand - quality comes with cost.

I'm on my iPad right now so have limited access to 338 LM data. That said, the CIP data that I could access indicates a 13,24mm (0.5212598") extractor groove diameter for the 338 LM. I have no idea what the +/- tolerance is, but with this specification the PRVI brass is under spec groove diameter...

Oh well, even without the PRVI brass - looks like we have a darn good spread of quality brass to use in the 49-10, the 500 MS, and the 500 ARN... Definately looking forward to your review of the JI/CI brass. If its of high quality maybe enough interest could be generated for a purchase of 338 LM cylinder brass without the 338 LM headstamp.

Jim,
Thanks for pointing out that CIP maximum extractor groove diameter.
Maybe not a problem then except the brass won't fit any of my .416 Rigby/.338 Lapua shell holders.
Well half will, half won't, .511" is the limit.
A little touch with a Dremel Tool on a spare shell holder will fix that. I'll try to be concentric.
If the claw extractor fits nicely with a smaller diameter, then more diameter could be a feed issue for a "DGR."
Max rim diameter is 14.93mm = .588", CIP.
Lapua and PRVI are both .584", Hornady is .588" (right at maximum rim diameter), and works well.
I'll try that PRVI stuff as .338 Lapua Magnum only ...
Looking forward to the J-C brass,
meanwhile will load and shoot some North Forks, finally, in the 49-10.
"Doin' good ain't got no end."

500 Mbogo Short/50-12: Easy brass, ready to shoot, no fire-forming required.
Simply neck down the brass in 49-10 die, then neck it back up in a 500 Jeffery or 500 Mbogo "Long" die.
Neck-1 of brass is .534" when 500 Mbogo Short is formed from Jamison basic blank cylindrical brass, with .510" diameter bullet loaded.
Amazingly, after the process of folding in the shoulder and squeezing the neck out, it ends up at same 2.750" length where it started.
Trims easily to 2.690" minimum and 2.700" maximum.
So with bullet shown, crimped as shown, COL is from 3.395" to 3.405".
Exactly 3.400" is easy enough.
3.425" box length is good (Ruger Hawkeye) two down in box, as is.
3.5" Wiebe box for 500 Jeffery, on an FN M98, will be even better.









Forming the brass in the 49-10 die:

Lube well. Pump it up and down 4 times, size partially (about 25%) each step, and bottom out on the last pump. Easy.
I did not want to shove it in all the way on first pass, as I did not want to muscle the press lever that much, fearing a stuck case first time around.

Two-pump sizing:
One step in the 500 Mbogo long die gives a "500 Mbogo Boomstick" cartridge that is 2.75" and has a very short neck for .510 caliber, 35-degree shoulder.
Second step in 49-10 die: Lube again and just bottom out in one step.
Easier, but not as pretty,
as it leaves a cosmetic blemish on the neck where the 35-degree shoulder gets ironed out when the the shoulder sets back to final 20-degree location.

Of course one could stop short of setting the 35-degree shoulder before going to the final die, to avoid the line on the neck.

Easiest of all: Purpose made 500 Mbogo Short/50-12 die, by Hornady Custom.

that's a helpful description for us newbies to wildcatting.

If I understand correctly, I could take Jamison basic and quadrapump down to a 500 AccRel inside of a specific 500 AccR die. Then trim to 2.65". Yes?

Could one do it in a Lee handpress, maybe in six pumps?

Looking good Ron...

Ok, you need to spill the beans here or on one of the 49-10 threads...
1) What are the exact avg. dimensions of the 49-10/50-12 JI/CI basic brass?
2) What are the N1, N2, P1, and case OAL dimensions of the JI/CI 49-10 formed-untrimmed brass?
3) What is the Overflow H20 Capacity of the JI/CI 49-10 formed-length trimmed brass?

Thanks,

Tanz,
Forming brass for 500 AccRel from basic should be easy, with any standard bench press, slightly easier than going down to 49-10.
I don't own a Lee handpress, can't say if it would work,
except it would be neat for field handloading of pre-formed/fired cases, in the good ol' USA, or other countries where handloading is legal.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
1) What are the exact avg. dimensions of the 49-10/50-12 JI/CI basic brass?
2) What are the N1, N2, P1, and case OAL dimensions of the JI/CI 49-10 formed-untrimmed brass?
3) What is the Overflow H20 Capacity of the JI/CI 49-10 formed-length trimmed brass?

Jim,
I'll get around to it.
Want to see some 400 Whelen fire forming loads in the meantime?
Rusty McGee recipe:
360-grain cast lead gas checked, sized to .413, with 35 grains of H110, in new R-P 35 Whelen brass necked up straight then necked down.

That load should have the "whomp" of a 454 Casull hot load for some pleasant plinking with a rifle.
That generates enough pressure in a .411-grooved barrel to form the shoulder well.
And it is less shoulder than on the 500 Mbogo Short/50-12, way less shoulder than on the 12.7x68/49-10.
But the 400 Whelen works very well.

Any owners of 500 AccRel, 500 AccRel Nyati, 12.7x68/49-10, or 500 Mbogo Short/50-12 rifles:
Inquire at Captech, show an interest, email works fine:


Production Manager;
Chris Freeman
Phone: 1-605-791-1974
E-mail: chris.f@captechintl.com


Maybe they will begin to routinely set aside some "blank basic" out of each run of .338 Lapua Magnum,
for wildcatters to scarf up.

I lucked into a 138-piece scarf-up, from a leftover of lot #230.

Until JI/CI makes it a regular offering, I cannot encourage anyone else to startup their brass collection of it,
nor will I use it for anything else but 500 Mbogo Short.

The final product using blank basic for 49-10 seems to be little different from fire-formed .338 Lapua Magnum.
For those of us without home ranges,
it's just a lot easier to neck down the cylindrical at the reloading bench,
than to have to travel to fire loads at the range.


So far the "blank basic" appears to be great stuff.

Yep...

I'm sitting pretty good right now with 338 LM brass. But I will inquire to Captech requesting that they set aside a portion of basic cylinder brass from each production run. If they're willing to do the set aside then those of us who are willing to form our own cases will be in pretty good shape.

Chris Freeman, production manager at Captech International:

Says the Jamison International blank basic brass will be offerred again in 2013, whenever they make another run of it.

Sounds like they will offer any blank basic that they routinely make, whenever they make a new batch of it,
and wildcatters can buy it, routinely,
if they get you on the wish list with office manager, Kathy Greenhaw.
Contact info above.

I am on the wish list for blank basic 30-06 and 338 LM.

Good to know, I'll get my name on Kathy's list for the 338 LM basic...