I was looking at a Winchester pre 64 (less then 100K, I think 80K range) .375 H&H today that had some "issues". Apparently the owner took the rifle to Alaska and had it engraved .375 Alaskan on the floor plate and had his name engraved on the barrel. The gun was refinished after the engraving. It was also drilled and tapped and had a Leupold scope. The stock was well worn. The price was $1,100. I know that I could NOT live with the engraving but I would also like to do a custom build. Figuring the Leupold is worth at least $200 I guess I'd be paying $900 for the receiver, bolt and small parts and need a new barrel, floor plate and refinish job as well as adding some custom sights, gunsmithing costs, and a Biesen stock etc.

Would this be a good place to start a custom rifle?

Thanks!

Personally, I don't think it is worth it. You are basically looking at only using the action from the rifle. As for the scope, if you intend to sell it, used scopes seem to depreciate faster than anything else you can buy. If you are going to use the scope, then I wouldn't give more than about $800 for the whole package. I have seen several magnum length M70 actions go for about $700, that don't need refinishing. A new floor plate will probably set you back close to $100 if you want to stay with oringal Winchester.
Hope this helps.
P.S. do you post on the S&W forum?

I have heard people say they would buy a clean pre 64 .375 action for $700-800. I OTOH, probably wouldn't but $550-600 would begin to get my attention.

When you figure you can sell the un-needed parts on eBay for $200 or so you're still at $900. Kinda steep for what you are describing.

quote:

Originally posted by congomike:
Personally, I don't think it is worth it. You are basically looking at only using the action from the rifle. As for the scope, if you intend to sell it, used scopes seem to depreciate faster than anything else you can buy. If you are going to use the scope, then I wouldn't give more than about $800 for the whole package. I have seen several magnum length M70 actions go for about $700, that don't need refinishing. A new floor plate will probably set you back close to $100 if you want to stay with oringal Winchester.
Hope this helps.
P.S. do you post on the S&W forum?

Yes I'm the same GeoffM24 from the S&W forum.

Thanks for the tips!

The pre 64 actions are surely good actions but if your going to custom build try to pick up one of the newer USRAC actions or make sure the pre 64 action is in excellent or can be returned to excellent condition. I'd look at that action real hard especially if it's been refinished.

Here's an excellent post on some action work done on a custom rifle:

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=684101113#684101113

I guess what I'm saying is just make sure your action and the way it looks, runs, is every bit as good or better than, your new custom rifle is going to look.

GeoffM24...Welcome to the forum. I post as Photog in the Smith forum. I think you will find the same quality of people on this forum. You will also learn as much about big bore rifles, African hunting, etc. on this forum as you learn about Smith's on the other forum.

old model 70 actions are a dime a dozen, just ask how many of the "experts" who replied if they have any rifles laying around that they would sell for the price they are quoting. IMHO, the P64's in an original magnum chambering are worth what you have to pay to get one. There have not been any good ones made for forty-two years!!!!!!!!! now, and the supply shrinks every day as people tumble to that fact and buy them up. I buy every one I can find for the price range/condition/value range you are talking. This IS a 375 action, they make the best 375H&H, 416Rem, 458Lott, 470 Capstick you can buy for under $4-grand.
The actual scope model has something to do with value, but since they have a lifetime warranty, the garbage written about depreciation is just that...

I would request in closing, that all of you gentlemen who have denigrated this rifle, sight unseen, price a new crf 375 and compare it to the old models.

Rich

PS:
Sendero300, that new action does not sound very good, a gunsmith will play hob recutting the threads, and he will spend the same money as the old model to make it useful. The new ones are not yet (maybe in another 15-20 years if nobody else produces anything better.

JMHO

Rich

$80,000 for a rifle? That's like 2 safaris and a steak dinner. It will still just be a m70.

quote:

Originally posted by ElCaballero:
$80,000 for a rifle? That's like 2 safaris and a steak dinner. It will still just be a m70.

Serial number not price, the price is $1,100

In Canada long action pre-64s go for a fair bit. 300 H & H actions are around $1000 with or without the rest of the gun. Decent .375s tend to go for whatever is asked, upwards of $1500.Bottom line is if you want a pre-64 .375 buy a good condition one when you find it. As others have said they're not makeing any more. I have a minty 300 H & H I bought to make a .375, just can't force myself to rip it apart. It is nice to know its there if I ever want to though.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
old model 70 actions are a dime a dozen, just ask how many of the "experts" who replied if they have any rifles laying around that they would sell for the price they are quoting. IMHO, the P64's in an original magnum chambering are worth what you have to pay to get one. There have not been any good ones made for forty-two years!!!!!!!!! now, and the supply shrinks every day as people tumble to that fact and buy them up. I buy every one I can find for the price range/condition/value range you are talking. This IS a 375 action, they make the best 375H&H, 416Rem, 458Lott, 470 Capstick you can buy for under $4-grand.
The actual scope model has something to do with value, but since they have a lifetime warranty, the garbage written about depreciation is just that...

I would request in closing, that all of you gentlemen who have denigrated this rifle, sight unseen, price a new crf 375 and compare it to the old models.

Rich

If you are addressing me in that crowd I didn't denigrate anything; I just stated what it was worth to me relative to others that I have had the opportunity to purchase. I am not as big a fan of the pre-64 as you seem to be so maybe that explains the discrepancy.

we ain't anywhere near cross Tigger, or anybody else here. Just suggesting that the idea that a true magnum length original(magnum chambering) is not worth that starting price (asking $1100--not got it) is not at all out of line THESE days! Ask me if diesel for my Dodge is WORTH $3.60 a gallon...there's a screwing taking place. Those old model 70 actions have yet to be bettered by any of the new offerings, excepting possibly a CZ550.
The Crossroads of The West gunshow had 5,000 tables last time. I looked at perhaps fifteen true (300-375H&H) magnum rifles. The nastiest one I saw, just an action really to start over with; was $1500 and it sold right out of my hands for the asking price. The guy sez "you gonna buy that for that price? I sez, I'm thinking about it. He sez to the owner "here's your $1500, gimme that.".
Reality based or not, these actions are like gold. Go rummaging about on the websites and look for yourself. The prices are thru the roof again.

Rich

OK, I see what you meant. I was saying that the problems with that particular one have reduced its value considerably. I would certainly think $1100 for an unmolested original Mod 70 .375 would be a bargain, too. They just aren'y my cup of tea.

I haven't examined one recently, but couple years ago local shop had one from mid-50s with 70B rear sight for 1,850USD. It was in excellent original condition.

Be careful that the .375 you are thinking about has not been rechambered to the .375 Alaskan. This was a wildcat that was developed to increase velocity much like a .300 Weatherby/.375 Weatherby. I have a old Model 70 barrel that came off a .300 H&H Mag. that was marked .300 Alaskan. A .300 Weatherby case will fit in the chamber. I would say that the gun you are looking at is priced properly.

I think $900 is a bit on the high side, but if the rest of the action appears in good shape, and the critical parts like bolt face, locking lugs, trigger group and safety etc all look good and work smoothly, then just buy it.

$100-200 extra for a good straight and clean action is peanuts in in relation to the total $$$ you will have into it when you are finished.

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:
I was looking at a Winchester pre 64 (less then 100K, I think 80K range) .375 H&H today that had some "issues". Apparently the owner took the rifle to Alaska and had it engraved .375 Alaskan on the floor plate and had his name engraved on the barrel. The gun was refinished after the engraving. It was also drilled and tapped and had a Leupold scope. The stock was well worn. The price was $1,100. I know that I could NOT live with the engraving but I would also like to do a custom build. Figuring the Leupold is worth at least $200 I guess I'd be paying $900 for the receiver, bolt and small parts and need a new barrel, floor plate and refinish job as well as adding some custom sights, gunsmithing costs, and a Biesen stock etc.

Would this be a good place to start a custom rifle?

Thanks!

The question is, "How much are you willing to pay for a pre-'64 Win. M70 action? $1100.00??" I think that's somewhat more than the action is worth. However, a lot depends on the condition of the actio, if you plan to scrap the barrel and stock as well.....

Thank you very much for all the help. I ended up buying the rifle. The action is so smooth I couldn't help myself.

The stock is original to the gun so I figure it has to be worth something.

It isn't ideal but a solid base for my project.

I'm going to be able to save the barrel which I found out it a E R Shaw barrel. I did a search here and found mixed views about them but I figure it is more then accurate enough for a hunting rifle. That will save me $350 over getting it rebarreled.

The gun is in the 84k serial number range so it wasn't a 375 originally since they weren't making them back then. I figure it was also a cost savings not having to convert the bolt and magazine.

The one real negative is that it is drilled and tap for receiver sights and a Griffin and Howe side mount. I know there are mixed feelings on G&H mounts but I like them so I'm trying to track one down.

Sure it would be cheaper to find one ready to go but I'm having fun playing with this one!

Geoff, there is nothing wrong with Shaw barrels, I have installed forty of so through the years and never had one that would not shoot. There is absolutley nothing wrong with the G&H side mount either. If it is already drilled for it, get one and use it. I have one on my pre 64 M-70 .458 Lott that has had several hundred rounds of full power 500 gr. loads through it with zero problems.

I have 4 or 5 pre-64 model 70's in 375 H&H as well as an equal number in 300 H&H. I buy and sell many each year. I would not buy any action with holes for side mounts unless it was priced at $300.00 or less. The side mounts are less than desirable. I know of no gunmaker that would make up a true custom job using such an action unless a customer requested a side mount. I have been dealing with custom guns for years and in every case, if a side mount was used the rifle went for far less than it would have had it been left original. Each of us have our own ideas about what we like in riflery. Any action that has been messed with will bring far less that one that is original but is well worn. The above mentioned rifle, with gross alteration and an aftermarket barrel is worth less than $300.00 as is.

I paid $775 or so for a 1953 vintage Winchester Model 70 action, that, from New Haven, had been originally screwed onto a .300 H&H Mag. chambered barrel. That action had no extra holes, and was in perfect condition. I bought it several years ago, and it is now on a semi-custom rifle I had made by AHR, in .375 H&H Mag.

If I could find another one in like shape now, for the same or similar price, I would jump right on it.

As with any thing for sale it is worth what ever someone is willing to pay for it.

The real test of worth is to try to fool 100 folks with the same deal. Anyone can find one fool to buy at inflated prices, try finding 100 fools to buy at that inflated price now that is salesmanship!

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
I have 4 or 5 pre-64 model 70's in 375 H&H as well as an equal number in 300 H&H. I buy and sell many each year. I would not buy any action with holes for side mounts unless it was priced at $300.00 or less. The side mounts are less than desirable. I know of no gunmaker that would make up a true custom job using such an action unless a customer requested a side mount. I have been dealing with custom guns for years and in every case, if a side mount was used the rifle went for far less than it would have had it been left original. Each of us have our own ideas about what we like in riflery. Any action that has been messed with will bring far less that one that is original but is well worn. The above mentioned rifle, with gross alteration and an aftermarket barrel is worth less than $300.00 as is.

Let's take a closer look at the math here to see who the fool is.

LB404:

Action (with side rail holes) $300
Rebarrel $350
Trueing and squaring $100
Shipping $50

Barreled action cost $800

GeoffM24:

Rifle (with side rail holes) $1100
Minus selling original stock on eBay $200
Minus selling Leupold VX-II scope on eBay $200
Minus selling S&W engraved 24K floorplate on eBay $200
Plus buying used floor plate on eBay $100

Barrelled action cost: $600

Who is the fool now?

Now add to this the fact that I will buy EVERY magnum pre 64 action you can supply at $300, I won't be holding my breath.

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:

The gun is in the 84k serial number range so it wasn't a 375 originally since they weren't making them back then.

If this is a standard action and not a "Magnum" action, then I agree with lb404 on the value. A sided drilled standard action that has had the bolt face opened up is not high on the value range.

For good solid pre-64 actions in original (no extra holes) condition, I consider:

Magnum (originally a 375H&H or 300H&H) = $750
Standard = $500

Maybe $50 plus or minus, depending on how bad you want one at the moment.

At the end of the day, if you are happy with the purchase, then that is all that matters. We you have a rifle built for yourself, it is for you and you can not have a resale value in mind, because you will most likely never get close to getting your money back out of it if you sell it later.

Build what you want, at what price you are comfortable spending, and enjoy it. This site is great for advice, but at the end of the day it is your money and rifle.

Enjoy.

Tim

I agree with Tim, build what you want and never look back. Just give what you really want some thought first.

Rich

The .375 was offered from Winchester in 1937. So, they did offer this caliber in the S/N range that was listed. I owned one in the 10xxx ranged, and I have seen them many times with earlier S/N. In fact the first Model 70's in .375 were made with standard barrels, and are very desirable, and hard to come by for the Collector.

Is there any way to tell if mine is a "magnum action" or a regular one? I thought the 375 H&H didn't come out until the 1950s and mine is serial 84,xxx.

The only magnums available in the Model 70 at the 84xxx range was either the .300 H&H, or the .375 H&H Magnums. The bolt face will be larger to handle the .375 belted magnum, also the magazine box is longer to handle these cartridges.

quote:

GeoffM24

Geoff fuzzy math is still fuzzy turn the light bulb on. It still will cost you $600.00 for the action that isn't worth $400.00. It will always be ugly and not the centerpiece of a fine custom rifle. Tell you what, I have a pre-64 model 70 that is a short magnum action with side holes filled and will sell it to you for $400.00 if you wish. I will also look for more and sell them to you at that price if and when I find them. If you just want a functional gun and don't care how it looks than any butchered action can work. How bout it fella???????????The going rate in Tulsa in April this year for pre-64 actions was as follows.
Long mag actions pristine $750.00
Short mag actions pristine $600.00
Standard actions Pristine $500.00
actions in poorer condition brought significantly less.
These were prices paid not prices asked of the respective actions. I sold 20 pre-64 rifles in April. I bought some for action prices. There may be some deals in October now that the real frenzie is subsiding. I look for the market in Winchester stuff Classic as well as pre-64 to be steady for a while. Some will profit take and others will keep a lot back. I have 5 375 and I think 4 300 H&H rifles in various condition. None of them are for sale now. I think it could be hard to find an alternative to the Winchester action for custom guns other than the Mauser line.

Geoff, using your math, one would be foolish to invest a large sum in that Winchester with the side holes. But if done with a proper action and by a proper smith it will be worth much more. See the big bore thread about the 404 Jeffery in a fiberglass stock for a purchase price of $6500.00 I think. It doesn't have side holes does it.

I'm well aware of the difference between a collectible and a shooter, to me anything but 100% original is not a collector grade. I'm not a Winchester collector, I collect S&Ws. I was in Tulsa this past April too but I must admit I wasn't looking for pre 64 Winchesters then. I have the most recent Amoskeag auction catalog with some nice collector grade model 70s, but thats not what I'm looking for. If you get a chance check out my website.

www.registeredmagnum.com

That is where my collector dollars go.

Personally I like G&H mounts and anything related to the 1930s shooters.

If I was looking for a premade collectible custom I'd buy one of the fine rifles listed on Al Biesen's website. But then I'd feel bad shooting it, this one I won't.

I considered the Mauser route but I'm not keen on all the need alterations, I also did not want a CZ or new Winchester.

I'm doing the metal work on this one, adding some NECG sights and goodies and the G&H mount. I'm getting a Biesen stock 98% inletted and will get a basic hand checkering job. My local gunsmith with do the blueing and retouch the roll marks etc.

In the end it will have a pre war feel but a modern scope set up with a nice piece of turkish walnut and some nice hobby time doing some of the metal work.

When it is done it won't be a pristine custom but it won't cost $6000 either.

Custom rifles are a highly personal thing. If you want the side mount more power to you. In every case that a side mount was used the value of the weapon is much less than a similar weapon that is drilled and tapped for top mounts or just plain left alone. Not my idea or rule just plain facts. There is a rifle on Champlins web site that carries a side mount. It has lived there for a very long time. Were it plain or had top mounts the asking price would be much more and the gun would have sold.

Good luck on your project and show some pictures of it when done.

I think the fact that if I owned a pre 64 winchester without a single added hole I would not have one added speaks to the value difference.

Having the holes already makes it much easier to add the scope mount I want without decreasing the value any more.

My other point is that I'm looking at the total cost of the project, not the parts. A rebarreled gun is certainly not a collectible and not worth as much but if my plan is to have a rebarreled custom it saves me money. The gun will also need a scope so to get a $300 scope too also decreases the cost.

I think sometimes we are all guilty of being penny wise and pound foolish. Let's say I bought your $400 action. Then paid $10 shipping and $25 transfer. I then need to have it barreled, that's another $350 assuming it needed no other smithing. Then I need a scope, if I get that same Leupold it is going to set me back $300. So I'm at $1,085 for a barreled action with no stock to sell and I have a plain floor plate instead of a gold inlayed and engraved one. That is not cheaper.

You assume a lot. If you can't sell the stuff on Ebay then your math goes down the drain. All in all if you want an ungly rifle buy a savage and save a lot of grief. This gets more fun the longer it goes.

If you can live with a push feed M70...
I fondled a very clean one at the Nampa Rod & Gun Club show this afternoon...asking price $500.
I can get you the mans' name and a phone number if you want.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
If you can live with a push feed M70...
I fondled a very clean one at the Nampa Rod & Gun Club show this afternoon...asking price $500.
I can get you the mans' name and a phone number if you want.

Rich

Thanks for the offer but I'm trying to stay with pre 64 actions.