Just wantered what happened to the .400 H&H?.

Does the "Holland & Holland" still have a persuasive appeal rather than "Ruger or Remington"?.
I hate to admit it but the "H&H" still have an appeal to me and their .400cal look "H&H" to me.

Jim Kobe made a LH rifle in 400 H&H that he had at the DSC. Nice piece.

I am building a .400 "Ogre"; a .400 H&H necked up to the normal Rigby caliber for bullet selection.

viperdae: that's interesting...you leaving everything else as-is?

I was tooling away at the bench the other day and decided to run a .375 H&H case partially into the Hornady Custom-Grade .450/.400 3" sizing die to see what happens, result was a nicely necked-up .40 cal round that looks very proportionate, even seated a .408" 400-grain pill into it! I will post a pic here soon.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Jim Kobe made a LH rifle in 400 H&H that he had at the DSC. Nice piece.

Yes I did Biebs and still for sale, may be at a reduced price also.

Where can one source ammo and/or brass for the .400 H&H? Is it just available from Holland?

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:
Where can one source ammo and/or brass for the .400 H&H? Is it just available from Holland?

I picked up 200 rounds of headstamped brass from Grafs (Jamison) and Hornady Custom Dies from Gulf Breeze Firearms along with load data (along with the rifle!). You can also form brass from 416 Remington, single pass through the FL sizer.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
viperdae: that's interesting...you leaving everything else as-is?

That is the plan, just a neck up. Still very early in the build though. Collecting the parts right now. I have always wondered why H&H didn't do this in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by jens poulsen:
Just wantered what happened to the .400 H&H?.

Does the "Holland & Holland" still have a persuasive appeal rather than "Ruger or Remington"?.
I hate to admit it but the "H&H" still have an appeal to me and their .400cal look "H&H" to me.

Another cartridge like their 465H&H which will drift into obscurity as nothing will catch up to and outlast the old favourites 450-400 3", 404 Jeffery and the 416 Rigby. The States made various 416s are also in the running and enjoy popularity being good cartridges with a selection of bullets to suit the modern shorter actions but it is noticeable that the 416 Rigby still enjoys a lions share of the action against these modern upstarts.

Of course the 450-400 3" and the 404 Jeffery just keep on doing the job as they have for over 100 years and with the 416 Rigby, all three of these favourites possess the credentials and mana of Africa. Don't need no other pretenders!!!

Shot my buff Sept 2012 with my 400 H&H, have been posting over the last year on my experiences with this cartridge here are some thoughts to the above questions
Brass: from Custom Brass, Midway carries some times very easy to resize 375 H&H brass
Bullets: in .411 dia; CEB, Barnes, Hornady, Northfork, Hawk.
Bullets in .410 dia: any made for the 450/400 caution some of these bullets operation range are made for velocities between 1800-2200 fps not enough for the 400 H&H same with the .411 Hornady bullet designed for the 405 win good practice bullet.
There has been no Saami pressure data as of yet available we have been successful using H4895 for lighter bullets and Varget for the heavier bullets. Pushing the 400gr bullets around 2450fps and the 300gr bullets 2700-2800fps. Very happy with this cartridge will probably play with the Northfork 360gr this summer.

Thanks Zepheyr.

That was a practical experienced info I was looking for.

I have a nice .416Rigby on a Prehtle Magnum action, but had I known back then what I know today, I would have had a .404Jeffery or a .400H&H. More than enough.
I know the .416Rigby can be "pumped" to duplicate the weatherby cousin but no-need-to only nice-to. The big Magnum-Mauser action could have been saved for a 500 Jeffery or .505Gibbs instead.

quote:

Originally posted by jens poulsen:
Thanks Zepheyr.

That was a practical experienced info I was looking for.

I have a nice .416Rigby on a Prehtle Magnum action, but had I known back then what I know today, I would have had a .404Jeffery or a .400H&H. More than enough.
I know the .416Rigby can be "pumped" to duplicate the weatherby cousin but no-need-to only nice-to. The big Magnum-Mauser action could have been saved for a 500 Jeffery or .505Gibbs instead.

Agree Jens,
Sold my ZG 47 .404 Jeffery to a Kruger National Park Ranger and use my Golmatic Magnum Mauser 98 .505 Gibbs and a Webley & Scott .450/.400 3 1/4" N.E. besides the Husqvarna 9,3x62 -which does everything one could ask for as a non PH...

Simmering on the back burner:









Die on left is a bushing type resizer for forming and neck sizing cases. Seat die in the center.

The die on the right is for sizing Hornady 400 grain 416 bullets down to 411 for cheapie practice loads.

for your info my 400 H&H project started with a new win mod 70 in 375 h&H which I re-barreled to 400 H&H no mods needed to receiver

Woodhunter:
Here are the COAL that has been used for throat dimensions
Woodleigh Bullets

Soft's 3.534

Solids 3.537
I loaded my CEB's to 3.60 that is what the cannelure gave me for an COAL but remember the CEB was is a bore rider design so the first band was quite far of the lands

WoodHunter
Good job having a collett sizing die as it gives you the option of .410 dia bullets, my no collett dies will not let me seat .410 dia bullets even with a 409 expander ball. As more .411 bullets show up on the market using .410 dia may not be needed

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
WoodHunter
Good job having a collett sizing die as it gives you the option of .410 dia bullets, my no collett dies will not let me seat .410 dia bullets even with a 409 expander ball. As more .411 bullets show up on the market using .410 dia may not be needed

Having both the resize and finishng reamers makes things easy when making the reloading dies. And I have enough chucking reamers to make just about any neck size bushing diameter needed.

I just need to complete the rifle!

I have been using Norma Basic Belted Brass for forming the cases.

Beautiful cartridge!!. Magnum belt or not, it will never become an issue on a M98 actioned correct.

Thanks WH.

To me one of the best looking big game cartridges. The neck is soooo long and I love long necks...
I could live with the belt but the bullet diameter is 411!!!! I hate you RW though it is said this cartridge was developed by Wolfgang Romey.
I am sure smooth feeding is ensured and the Northfork's 400 grainer CPS bullet pushed to 2400ft/s would be a fine medicine for buffalo...

Guys:

I am scratching my head a bit here. I know H&H is very revered but I have a hard time understanding the lure of the 400 H&H when there is a readily available .416 Remington or even better, the .416 Ruger.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Guys:

I am scratching my head a bit here. I know H&H is very revered but I have a hard time understanding the lure of the 400 H&H when there is a readily available .416 Remington or even better, the .416 Ruger.

..give it a shot! .

Of the two cartridge (.416 Rem &Ruger)you mention I would have thought the old .404Jeffery would outshine these in historical perspective.
I see however the .375 & .416 Ruger as a fresh new breath along with the .400H&H.

That is one nice looking cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Guys:

I am scratching my head a bit here. I know H&H is very revered but I have a hard time understanding the lure of the 400 H&H when there is a readily available .416 Remington or even better, the .416 Ruger.

Chambering a new H&H for something made by Remington probably feels like putting a 351 Cleveland in a new Rolls Royce. Not proper, old boy. H&H buyers like the idea of a proprietary cartridge and H&H could care less if anyone builds a rifle for them except H&H. They aren't in the ammo business.

As for practicality, it isn't particularly available but it feeds wonderfully without anything in the way of action work in anything originally set up for the 375 H&H. Something that can't always be said for the 416 Remington. I'm a handloader so it's a non-issue for me here in the US. That said, I'd hate to go on a remote overseas hunt and have my 400 H&H ammo get lost along the way.

tiggertate:

I agree that it would be cool to chamber an H&H rifle in an H&H cartridge. However, beyond that, I agree with eagle27. Another cartridge like the .465 H&H that will drift into obscurity. To be honest, I think the beltless .416 Ruger that works through a shorter action is a better, more efficient design and I have not really heard of any feeding problems with it or the .416 Remington for that matter. That being said, I own a .416 Rigby but would like to pick up a .416 Ruger. Simply stated, the Ruger is the better cartridge.

You gotta love hunter and shooters. Sometimes simple practicality just goes out the window. Witness the multi page thread on the moribund 400 Whelen. We are a crazy bunch.

I have been playing with a rifle chambered in .400H&H for a little while. I really like the cartridge. I have an identical rifle chambered in .375H&H. Felt recoil in the .400H&H is less than that from the .375H&H. The cartridge feeds and extracts like it's made of butter.




I like the cartridge so much I decided to work up some loads. I've gathered five different powders and seven different bullets. I'm waiting on delivery of some more bullets. I have a lot of shooting ahead of me and I'll be posting the results soon.

Left to right - .300H&H, .375H&H, .400H&H with: 300gr soft, 300gr TSX, 400gr solid, and 430gr paper-patched lead



I picked up some loaded ammo and quite a bit of properly headstamped brass. Some people think getting brass is difficult. With all the 300H&H cartridges out there I can't understand that. Just for fun, I shot some .300H&H ammo in the .400H&H. Viola! I had .400H&H cases, though just a little shorter (1/16") than the factory stuff. I have no doubt that fire-formed cases would do for general service in the .400H&H.

I have heard of people loading .41 caliber pistol bullets for "plinking" and prairie dog practice. I think the 270gr and 300gr bullets available for the .405 Winchester, loaded to moderate velocities, would do nicely for game like deer, hogs, and black bear. There are also bullets designed for heavier work in 325gr and 350gr. And then, of course a basic selection of heavy duty solids and softs in 400gr.

A practical cartridge? I think so, though it is pretty much a handloader's proposition at this point. Of course so was the .375H&H during its first dozen years. People say that the .404 is the bolt rifle equivalent of the .450-400. I disagree. I think the .400H&H is much closer to the .450-400 in both form and function than the .423 caliber .404. And the .400H&H will work in any bolt rifle that can handle the .375H&H, no special work to the bolt face, magazine, or feed rails required.

This is why I like the cartridge from the first day I saw it(in the middle); shallow shoulder angle, long neck for the firm bullet grip and circa 2400fps with 400gr bullet should be possible. What more do we need?...

I think it deserves to survive...

Grenadier, share some of your loadings later on. I am curious...

CZ

Grenadier, PM me if I can be of any help with the loads that I have worked up

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
tiggertate:

I agree that it would be cool to chamber an H&H rifle in an H&H cartridge. However, beyond that, I agree with eagle27. Another cartridge like the .465 H&H that will drift into obscurity. To be honest, I think the beltless .416 Ruger that works through a shorter action is a better, more efficient design and I have not really heard of any feeding problems with it or the .416 Remington for that matter. That being said, I own a .416 Rigby but would like to pick up a .416 Ruger. Simply stated, the Ruger is the better cartridge.

You gotta love hunter and shooters. Sometimes simple practicality just goes out the window. Witness the multi page thread on the moribund 400 Whelen. We are a crazy bunch.

I guess my point was that it is intended to be obscure. H&H would like nothing better than for there never to be a single rifle built in 400 H&H (or 465) outside of their shop. And other than we few customs, I agree with you that it will probably end up being the case.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:

I guess my point was that it is intended to be obscure. H&H would like nothing better than for there never to be a single rifle built in 400 H&H (or 465) outside of their shop. And other than we few customs, I agree with you that it will probably end up being the case.

An odd claim. You can no doubt point to a quote from the manager of H&H to prove this?

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Another cartridge like their 465H&H which will drift into obscurity ... Don't need no other pretenders!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Guys:
I am scratching my head a bit here. I know H&H is very revered but I have a hard time understanding the lure of the 400 H&H when there is a readily available .416 Remington or even better, the .416 Ruger.

Naturally both of you have posted similar sentiments on the 57 page B&M cartridge/rifle thread...


.

Grenadier,
Tell me about that 430 grain paper patch load you have. It looks very sweet indeed.

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by TwoZero:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:

I guess my point was that it is intended to be obscure. H&H would like nothing better than for there never to be a single rifle built in 400 H&H (or 465) outside of their shop. And other than we few customs, I agree with you that it will probably end up being the case.

An odd claim. You can no doubt point to a quote from the manager of H&H to prove this?

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Another cartridge like their 465H&H which will drift into obscurity ... Don't need no other pretenders!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Guys:
I am scratching my head a bit here. I know H&H is very revered but I have a hard time understanding the lure of the 400 H&H when there is a readily available .416 Remington or even better, the .416 Ruger.

Naturally both of you have posted similar sentiments on the 57 page B&M cartridge/rifle thread...


.

TwoZero:

You are correct. Please accept my apology. I was being shortsighted. In my opinion these cartridges are the answer to a question that no one asked but that is just my opinion. As I said, in a H&H rifle, they would be cool. They should be slick feeders and for anyone that wants one, I say go for it.

Perhaps I am a bit biased. I live in Grand Island, NE, home to Hornady and both the .375 and .416 Ruger.

Good hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by TwoZero:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:

I guess my point was that it is intended to be obscure. H&H would like nothing better than for there never to be a single rifle built in 400 H&H (or 465) outside of their shop. And other than we few customs, I agree with you that it will probably end up being the case.

An odd claim. You can no doubt point to a quote from the manager of H&H to prove this?

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Another cartridge like their 465H&H which will drift into obscurity ... Don't need no other pretenders!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Guys:
I am scratching my head a bit here. I know H&H is very revered but I have a hard time understanding the lure of the 400 H&H when there is a readily available .416 Remington or even better, the .416 Ruger.

Naturally both of you have posted similar sentiments on the 57 page B&M cartridge/rifle thread...


.

Just an opinion, TwoZero. Worth what you paid to read it. I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn last night but I do own a 400 H&H custom and I love it. What does Michael's work have to do with H&H's business model?

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
... What does Michael's work have to do with H&H's business model?

In all reality the .400H&H and the B&M cartridges when looked at objectively are probably never going to be that popular.

I just find it funny how one gets panned as 'destined for obscurity' on page 1 and the other gets 57 pages with nary a discouraging word.

Just interesting in how selective people can be.

quote:

Originally posted by TwoZero:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
... What does Michael's work have to do with H&H's business model?

In all reality the .400H&H and the B&M cartridges when looked at objectively are probably never going to be that popular.

I just find it funny how one gets panned as 'destined for obscurity' on page 1 and the other gets 57 pages with nary a discouraging word.

Just interesting in how selective people can be.

I think you're reading more into it than was intended. In fact, both are already obscure and most likely will remain so unless unless and until a major maker picks one up. That has nothing to do with their usefulness, suitablility or performance. It's just a commercial fact. Not withstanding the fact that something obscure can still be worthwhile doing and profitable, Michael's work on his cartridges has helped launch CEB bullets and the rifles have made SSK a decent piece of revenue. Yet in the scheme of things both are still obscure.

TwoZero I do not think the cartridge is dead just because it is not commercially loaded by a big ammunition manufacturer.
Bullets can be obtained as well as brass...

And I still can see here a group of gentlemen with fine taste who can appreciate it...

CZ

quote:

Originally posted by TwoZero:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
... What does Michael's work have to do with H&H's business model?

In all reality the .400H&H and the B&M cartridges when looked at objectively are probably never going to be that popular.

I just find it funny how one gets panned as 'destined for obscurity' on page 1 and the other gets 57 pages with nary a discouraging word.

Just interesting in how selective people can be.

Its called "making a choice"- why do you assume we are wrong when you have no evidence either way?

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

Its called "making a choice"- why do you assume we are wrong when you have no evidence either way?

I never said anyone was "wrong"...

I just said that I found it interesting or rather found it humorus how oddly selective people can be in thier 'choices'.

I have no investment one way or the other between the .400 H&H and the B&M cartridges - They were just convienient examples to illustrate an observation.


.

quote:

Originally posted by TwoZero:

In all reality the .400H&H and the B&M cartridges when looked at objectively are probably never going to be that popular.

I just find it funny how one gets panned as 'destined for obscurity' on page 1 and the other gets 57 pages with nary a discouraging word.

Just interesting in how selective people can be.

Well, I suppose that depends on ones definition of "Popular" and of course also one must define "Obscure" as well?

Obscure......."not discovered or known about; uncertain"..... "not clearly expressed or easily understood"....."not important or well known"....... "hard to make out or define; vague"

Not Discovered or Known About...... Well, the B&Ms have certainly been discovered, and are fairly well known within the circles of which the B&Ms are designed for. Currently there are rifles in Africa, Australia, Alaska, and many right here in North America. There is already a distributor in Australia, Daryl Lenkic, I am now talking to a group that is interested in importing the rifles into South Africa as well. On average there are 150 visitors per day from all over the world on the B&M Website from all over the world. At DSC this past convention, B&M was there. I was amazed at the folks who came up, and knew what the rifles/cartridges were about, and had been to the website, and were NOT members of AR..... So, Obscure in this sense can clearly be defined by the "Circle Of Interest", which means, that in the "Dangerous Game" world, then the rifles/cartridges are very well known, and most within this circle understand what they are about. Now, if that "Circle of Interest" is Joe deer hunter down the road, and he is toting his MIGHTY 7mm Magnum, then the B&Ms are indeed Obscure to that Circle of Interest, and in addition, so is the 458 Lott, 470 Capstick, 500 Nitro, and indeed the 400 H&H. For those sorts, big bores and the work they do are Unknown to them, other than what they see on either TV or read in the magazines, and currently over the years there have been several magazine articles concerning the B&M rifles by some of the most well known writers out there, but one has to define "Obscure" by the "Circle of Interest" involved...........

Not Clearly Expressed or Understood..... I think the B&Ms are very clearly expressed, there is just way too much data on each one for that. Understood? Sometimes its hard to make someone understand exactly what they are about, until one "Lays Hands Upon"..... I can show you photos, I can talk about, I can post measurements and weights, but until one actually puts one in your hands to hold, feel, throw up on target, handle, then it is hard to understand, that I concede and have always said. Around here, it is very interesting to watch folks handle the rifles, its always the same, you can see the "Light Bulb" come on every time......

The rest of the definitions are addressed above, in the same light.

Now, "Popular"....... Again, "Circle of Interest"..... No the B&Ms are not very popular amongst "Joe Deer Hunter".... The "Common" hunter. Ole Joe has probably not even heard of them, nor has he heard of the 400 H&H, and probably not even the 458 Lott, nor 416 Ruger...... Oh he may have heard the numbers, 416 or 458, but that is about as far as his knowledge extends. Nope they would not be "Popular" within that group.... They are not Designed for that group.

Ever go to a Gun Show? Take a look at your fellow shooters in attendance. Take a look at what they are buying at the gun show, or even your local gun shop.... There are a lot of folks out there walking around with $500-$750 in their pocket, to buy a rifle, shotgun, or handgun in that price range. Now you have a rifle for sale, and it costs $2500.00, your share of the market just dropped drastically, as there are not so many folks walking around with $2500 to spend. Now, you have a rifle that costs $5000.00, and once again, the number of folks ready to spend $5000 just dropped drastically more so... And so on.....

Now, this can be reversed to "Caliber/Cartridge"..... Hell, there are a lot of folks out there with anything from 223 to 300 Magnums.... Millions of them...... Now, take a look at the share of mediums, from 338-375 caliber, the number of sales just dropped big time.... Do you see where I am going? Now we go off to the beginning of Big Bore from 416 up and the number of people having 416s is even less, and as we go up in caliber it becomes less with each step up..... How many folks even within our big bore community have 577s and 600s? Even less......... Popular? Depends upon the "Circle of Interest" and what Circle you are in........

One could say the same about bullets....... Joe Deer Hunter has little use for a BBW#13 Solid, so they are not very popular within the "Deer Hunting" community are they?

I think that "Obscure & Popular" absolutely have to be not only defined, but actually would be the wrong term for any of these B&Ms or 400 H&H, or any number of others that could be lumped into that category. I think "Uncommon" may fit, but not perfectly, while the B&Ms are in no way "Common", they are better known than you allow. There is not a damned thing "Common" about me anyway, so I would just as soon wish not to be "Common"...... Unconventional.... Yes, without doubt......

Michael

Simply put, there is nothing discouraging to say about the B&M series of both cartridges and rifles. Every PH who has seen, handled and fired one and then seen the effect on DG, wants to own one. That's been my experience, and I have more than a little time in africa and hunting DG, using a variety of big bore rifles and cartridges prior to Michael's invention of the B&M calibers and rifles.

Now we have a highly respected commercial source for loaded B&M cartridges (due by the end of the year) - Superior Ammunition - and rifles being built by an also highly respected gun maker - SSK. Both are American companies whose reputations are known worldwide. I don't believe the same can be said of the .400H&H.