The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 400 Holland & HollandGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| one of us |
What's up with the 400 Holland & Holland. Other than an article on African-Hunter http://www.african-hunter.com/new_h&h_cartridges.htm I havent heard much in quite awhile. Other than Woodleigh offerings in 400gr. Seems Northfork is offering a 300gr and 360gr softpoints with a prefered impact velocity in the 1800-2700 range. Sounds like converting a M70 Classic Stainless in 375 H&H to the 400 H&H with maybe a 22 or 23 inch barrel would be a good Alaskan project. Phil | ||
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Greyghost, If you can believe it, this was the question I asked Holland just last week. They are building rifles on orders they have received, and CIP is just about to issue an interim certification for the cartidge (pending the plenary session approval). Romey is loading ammunition. John Ricks is building a rifle here in the US on a Mauser action as well. Holland has one prototype rifle with an outfitter in Botswana, but I don't know to what use it has been put. I still want one. jim dodd | |||
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Jim, how does one get hold of John Ricks any more. I'd sure like to know what his components are, also his bore and grove dimensions. Krieger has their 405 win barrel, with a bore dia of .4030 with a grove depth of .4110. I've tried contacting every one I could think of, and havent gotten any real information back. Phil | |||
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Phil, Email on the way to you. jim | |||
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Having read the article in African Hunter (and I must confess that is all I have seen on this cartridge)I couldn't help wondering how much different the .400 H&H would be from a .416 Remington Magnum. And I couldn't see any real advantage over the established cartidges, such as .404 Jeffrey and the .416 Rigby. Maybe I am being a bit premature and shortsighted on this, but I wonder if others have asked the same question and this, along with a dirth of barrels and components, has contributed to the low level of interest? Anyone else have any ideas? | |||
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Bob, Holland's designs for the .400 H&H and the .465 H&H feature low pressure, and lots of taper for easy feeding and extraction. So far the cartridges are proprietary to Holland; however, they are releasing them to the trade. Holland is not in any kind of a hurry, which keeps the marketing noise down about the cartridges. We have had other .411" cartidges here in the States, for example the .411 KDF and the .400 Pondoro, so you can find bullets and barrels. Not as many as the .416s obviously, since we have three factory cartridges. The .404 Jeffery is no longer a factory cartridge in the USA (if it ever was), and the .416 Rigby requires a magnum action. You can build a .400 H&H on any .375 H&H length action. jim | |||
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quote:Jim, are you planning on a rifle from H&H or are you building a custom rifle? | |||
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500grains, I am afraid Holland's rifles are above my paygrade, even if I do own my own business. ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} My plan is a custom rifle.jim | |||
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BwanaBob This was beaten to death when the cartridge was first announced. Holland is just releasing what is essentially the .416 Remington as a proprietary cartridge in order to "solve" a non-existent problem. The cases are so close as to make a micrometer necessary to differentiate them. To get .416 Remington velocities, they will need almost .416 Remington pressures. This round is purely a marketing blitz to rake in some money from the Holland name. I suppose that's fine if you're investing in a Holland rifle; I can't imagine anyone investing in a custom in this caliber. If you believe the supposed pressure problem, download the .416 Rem by a few fps. | |||
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Yes Art, except you don't need a micrometer to see that with the H&H taper of the case body and the inordinately long, retro neck (so as to resemble the 404 Jeffery on a smaller case) all add up to a case capacity definitely smaller than the .416 Remington. Add to this the slightly smaller bore of the 400 H&H, and you have a case that delivers slower velocities with 400 grain bullets, or higher pressures are required to get to the low side of .416 Remington velocity. Just so the 400 H&H is not totally moot, how much better is the feeding and extraction of the 400 H&H over the .416 Remington? | |||
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I think a lot of people on this forum have totally missed the point on Hollands' new .400. The company doesn't give a stuff what other cartridges are out there, or how they compare with the .416 Remington, or any other cartridge. they are simply doing what Holland & Holland do best: offering their clients EXCLUSIVITY! Sure, they have released the cartridge to the trade, but it is not trying to solve any percieved problem, or knock off the current industry standard. Any and every 400gr .400+ bullet at 2100+ fps needs no excuse as the perfect all-rounder for Africa/India/anywhere. The .400 H&H is simply designed to give the discerning client a Holland rifle chambered for a proprietry Holland cartridge. What could be neater than that? | |||
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quote:That's an excellent comment by Marrakai. Mind if I ask one of my neophyte questions regarding this new cartridge? Isn't the new cartridge almost perfect in it's .411 bullet diameter/400-gr. weight for someone needing to step up from the .375 without getting into significantly more recoil than they may be willing or able to handle? The new .400 H&H seems to fill the niche between the .375 and .458, with it's 'low & slow', as in low pressure and slower velocities. I've read there are some places in Africa where the required bullet diameter is .400+. The new .400 H&H shows a lot of forethought by Holland&Holland in what could be the perfect all-around heavyweight. Another question is in regard to the .416 Remington. I've read here that it suffers from inconsistant ignition properties resulting in pressure spikes that cause difficulty in extraction. So far, this seems to be mentioned in the same breath as the African Heat. I'm curious, does the .416 Rem. show any of the same problems in the Alaskan Cold...? The .416's have been mentioned as a preferred cartridge of Alaskan guides, and I've read that the lighter bullets will give good trajectory for the plains game of Africa. Now, with the .400 H&H, a hunter has a choice of a bigger projectile than the .375 without the possible problems of the .416 Rem. or moving up to even more diameter/weight/recoil of the .458. This makes it feasible for someone dreaming of a 'heavy' to actually have one rifle to do it all. The .375 H&H is capable of killing everything that walks the planet, but it isn't 'allowed' to in some places. The .400 H&H will be. [ 09-20-2003, 17:52: Message edited by: BusMaster007 ] | |||
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| one of us |
Quote from my last post: "This round is purely a marketing blitz to rake in some money from the Holland name. I suppose that's fine if you're investing in a Holland rifle;" I think most people on the board have always understood exactly the reason for the cartridge. Also, the first articles about the cartridge refer to the .416 pressure "problem" and in a roundabout way indicate that the Holland round will give the same performance while "solving" the pressure problem. This is what really kinda irks me about this. I usually don't care what other people buy (it's their money), but when ballistic hooie starts getting thrown around by people wanting to make money from it, I get a little hostile. My last great cause was the "Short Magnums operate under different rules than regular cartridges" story. This is ridiculous and should be noted as such,Remington and Winchester. This from a guy that has always liked short wildcats (but not because they were magic.) | |||
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Out of the .400 H&H and the .416 Remington Magnum, I wonder which will still be in factory production in twenty years time ? I think I know the answer. | |||
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O yea of little faith! I suggest that those who have not go to the African Hunter website http://african-hunter.com/ and read the two articles there on the New Holland Cartridges (by me own sel') and Rifle Lessons Learned by Editor Dr. Don Heath). This will equip you to judge the comments in this thread. jim | |||
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Oh yeah, there is always a certain amount of hype and BS involved in marketing a new cartridge. The 404 Jeffery does much better at what the 400 H&H is trying to do. The 400 H&H sure makes the 404 Jeffery look good, as long as one is not afflicted with H&H-itis. H&H-itis is a disease in which the primary symptoms is "putting on of airs." Sort of a bad case of gas in reverse. Be gone bad humors and stench of swamp gas! Somebody get a witch doctor to exorcise this miasma! Crass commercialism! Beware! | |||
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| Moderator |
If you're an H&H buyer and want the marque then it is a perfect solution to your problem. You'll get all the performance of the plebian 416Rem, and have the "proper" name on the barrel. ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} What you will also get are basically the same ballistics and supposedly high pressure troubles as the 416Rem, if your H&H ammo is loaded to the same velocity. Anyone who tries to say otherwise is either full of you know what or attempting to mislead the buying public, IMO. Either one can be loaded to 2350fps and will then operate at medium pressures, ensuring trouble free use in hot climates. [ 09-21-2003, 06:20: Message edited by: John S ] | |||
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the arguement that this cartridge is needed or not isn't very well thought out to me. if the invention of a new cartridge is to be based on "need", then Winchester and Remington "need" to shit can the last half dozen or more cartridges that they created. in fact, any North American hunter can dump everything he owns and keep only a .223, a .30-06, and a .338. and i don't mean a 338 Ultra Mag, or a 338 Short Mag, or a 338 Short Action Ultra Mag. see my point?? repitition and overlapping is the most common trait of cartridges and cartridge makers. really, what's the difference between a 7mm-08 and a .308...damn little. hey, i live in Oklahoma and i own a 458 Lott. talk about "need"......geeesh. if i could afford a 400H&H i'd buy one just so i could say i owned one. i think there are a lot of gun owners who'd do the same. anyway...... [ 09-21-2003, 18:31: Message edited by: bill smith ] | |||
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quote:I think this gentleman got it right. H&H was not pursuing the best engineered cartridge, the best ballistics, or a solution to a problem that had not been solved before. They just wanted their own name on a cartridge, and they have the right to do that if they choose. That's what Remington did when they re-labelled the 416 Hoffman as the 416 Remington Mag. [ 09-22-2003, 21:16: Message edited by: 500grains ] | |||
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The 400 is an interresting round in itself and should not be compared to the 416 or 404 which will outclass it anyway you cut it...The 400 is a gun to give the old 375 a run for the money from a balistic standpoint... None of them can beat a handloaded 404 Jefferys which to my mind is the ultimate big game 40 caliber...but when it all comes out in the wash I am perfectly satisfied with my 416 rem on a Search Mauser... There is a lot more difference in conversation than there is in the rounds were discussing. | |||
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If it was purely marketing hype, then Remington would be chambering 700's for it, and the H&H ads in American Rifleman and Guns & Ammo would compliment the articles extolling it as the best deerslaying cartridge ever. | |||
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Moderator |
The first time I heard about the round, I thought it was silly, and simply a duplication of what was already filling a small niche market. But, as I've had time to ponder the round, it's attributes, and what it will do, I've come to the conclusion that it will likely be a successful round for H&H. I'm just suprised at all the rancor from the sidelines. Is anyone here going to sell their 416's or 404's to buy one? Of course not. Will you likely ever come across one, or ammo for it, likely not. Will it cut into sales of the existing 40 calibers, not likely either. I'm thinking I might just have to get one built, just to make friends around here ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} Seriously though, I like gently tapered cases, and have no problems with belts. I also like long necks, as they are friendly to long cast bullets. And that is the primary use I'd have for such a gun, shooting pistol weight bullets for plinker loads, and running a 400+ gr cast at 1800-2100 fps for full patch boogy. | |||
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Paul, It is not rancor. It is mirth. The 400 H&H and 465 H&H are just too funny! | |||
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And I'm sure the fine gentlemen of Holland and Holland will be laughing themselves all the way to the bank | |||
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quote:DUDE@@ I have the PERFECT gun for all our trolls... a 12.5" lop, SCOPED ONLY remington "super" model 7, ultralightwieght, in 465 HH.... pull the trigger, again, toad.... the last scope cut didn't QUITE make it through the skull!!! jeffe | |||
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From a technical perspective, backed up by field experience, one only needs a 416 Rem for any big bore task anywhere. Heat is not a problem with Hodgdon Extreme powders, and it feeds great. We have other big bores because of different tastes and aesthetics, but in a tested technical sense, none of these rounds are really needed. | |||
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quote:I was going to respond to this absurd statement that you have written but have decided not to. It is obviously only meant to proclaim your idiocy and lack of experience. | |||
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Paul, If H&H laughs all the way to the bank, then they will be slapping the high fives and proclaiming as they go: "Suckers!" | |||
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| <lb404> |
All said, Reinventing the wheel is easy, making it better is, at best, difficult. The 404 Jeffery already fulfills the promise of a 400 grain bullet at any velocity from 2100 to 2500+ feet per second in a case suitably designed for low pressure and excellent feeding and extraction. Cases and bullets are already available to the trade. This round has been perfected. It needs no beautification to be fully functional if not down right perfect for its intended purpose. The H&H rounds will be just a yawn or black eye in Holland and Holland's illustrious history. A collectors item! | ||
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H&H only needs to sell five 400 H&H rifles per year to consider the offering a success, and I am sure they will achieve more than that. How many rifles does Remington need to sell to consider a new caliber a success? | |||
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AWWWWWW...Gator 1, don't be such a sissy. Gimme your best shot. Tell me the circumstances under which a well placed shot from your favorite Loudenboomer will have a diferent outcome than one from a 416 Rem. Or, since you must be such an experienced expert, please be my guide and assume that I have just gut shot a Cape Buff in tall grass with a 416 and its nearly dark. Would you feel any better about going in after it had I used the Loudenboomer? If you do, I am sure as hell not going in ther with you!! | |||
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| <JOHAN> |
quote:Well, but I heard that within a short time it will be possible to get factory ammo ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} Wondering why winchester or Ruger is not cambering it I think that H&H should be cambering rifles in 404 Jeffery or 416 Rigby than waste time and money to try and re-invent the weel. Besides the cartridge is old school fashion with a pesky belt / JOHAN | ||
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quote:Sabot, it is not the well placed shot that tells the tale it is the not so well placed shot that slows an animal down enough to try again. A well placed shot from a 308 will have the same outcome as one from a 416 Remington. Let me ask the reverse. You are the PH and your client has just gut shot a Cape Buffalo with his rifle. It is almost dark and the animal has retreated into the long grass. You have three rifles to choose from. A 416 Remington Magnum and a 577 Double and a 458 Lott. You can shoot all three equally well, all handle the same and have proper bullets etc. Which one do you choose? You are walking through the thick bush hunting bushbuck with your 270wsm when a herd of cows, lead by an old tuskless cow scents you and charges through the bush. As they break through the screen, 10 yards away' your PH says "I'm sure glad I brought the old 416 Remington instead of the 505 today, aren't you?" | |||
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In the first instance, I would pick the double, because it is a double. And, to be honest, I would be psychologically bolstered by the power of the 577 as well. Given 3 bolt rifles in the aforementioned calibers, I honestly would be ambivalent about the 577 due to weight, recoil and recovery capability. Given the Lott and the Rem I don't think there is any difference since my 416 would be loaded with 500 gr Hawks at 2200 fps anyway. In the second case, I would crap in my pants no matter WHAT the guide carried, but I would not go in there with a 270 WSM unless he had a double. Now, the double 577 is better in that situation than a double 416...I will give you that. But there will be the same amout of crap in my pants and the same dead cow in either case. So, I will grant you that you have made a good point about Big, big bores but I think it applies to doubles where the task is very specific and frequently back up. In bolt rifles, I am still not convinced that the 416 Rem is not as good as anything else. | |||
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I'm not sure it makes a lot of difference what size hole one puts in an elephants brain! The only thing I would require in either of the above mentioned posts would be a solid.. The double has merit, but how much I do not really know.. If it is getting dark, one does not go into the high grass, you wait until daylight and come back and fetch the fellow or finish the job, you will live much longer that way. You should never take a shot at Buffalo that late in the evening. I have done it and it always caused me a world of anguish. | |||
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RAY - Very well said, and tactful I might add. Please allow me to press the point...is the 416 Rem enough gun? ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Ganyana has an article on Stopping Power in the African Hunter archives. http://african-hunter.com/stopping_power.htm In particular if you read down to the paragraph where he reviews the record for hunters charged without warning by elephant in thick cover and compares the calber in use to the numbers killed and injured. The results are illuminating as they say. The particular question favors the .577 NE double answer by the way. jim | |||
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Jim That is a very good article. Thanks for posting it. | |||
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I agree that this is an excellent article, and agree with it in its entirity. It does not, however favor the 577 or any other caliber except when charged by an elephant at a range so close that you are shooting up at it from the front. Even then, you chances of getting killed are very good. Actually, if the author had a favorite caliber, it was the 9.3X62...read it for yourself and draw your own conclusions. | |||
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