Hi Guys,

Hoping someone may be able to offer some advice with a problem I've been having.

I have a CZ550 in .416 Rigby. I load 450gr Woodleigh solids with 94gr of AR2213SC and Federal 215 magnum primers. SNRN with 92gr to the same POI. These loads should be pretty mild. Never chronograph end them but I'd expect about 2200-2300fps. Should be able to run at least another 4-6gr but don't see the point. Norma brass. About 5 loads on brass. Trimmed after 3 loads and very little lengthening.

My problem is about 1 in 2 rounds result in a tight bolt to close. No problems on opening. No flat primers. I have tried neck and full length resizing. Have also tried winding the full length sizer right down to move the shoulder down a bit more. Ends up with a few dents in the shoulder which is no good. One thread off the case holder seems to work best. I clean the primer pocket each load or 2.

I'm buggered if I know what the drama is.

The only thing I can think of is that the Federal primers sometimes sit just proud of the case head? I recently bought a Sako in .338 WM and I found the Federal primers stuck out a bit from the case head and had the same drama with tight bolt closing. I changed to CCI and no probs. these primers seem to seat flush with the case head.

Should I change to CCI primers with Norma brass in the Rigby? Everything I read recommends the Federal primers for big cases and I've never had a misfire. Problem is I load 100 and have to run all through and select the 50 best to take hunting and use the tight ones for practice. They should all be the same.

Ha anyone else experienced these problems? Any help appreciated.

Cheers

Daniel

I would guess that you could see/feel a primer not seated deep enough so that should be easy to eliminate as a problem. Another variable might be bullet seating depth compared to free bore. If the bullet is seated out a little too far it may be engaging the lands and twisting in the case when you close the bolt.

Clean the primer pockets every time. If you are seeing that they are out a bit, and your die is adjusted correctly, then that would be my idea. I use Norma brass and 215's, no issues here, so I don't think it is a true primer problem.

I had a similar problem in my CZ .416, also...seems as though a few of the cases would have a tiny "bulge" at the case body/shoulder junction (finally found it because there was a bit of a shiny spot on the bulge) and I only found it because I removed a "tight" case and examined it closely. Now only neck size for this one.

Karl

Never a problem with .416 Rigby Norma brass and F215 or identical GM215M primers for me either.

I actually seat them a bit below flush, as recommended. Never a problem.

By all means, do the proper primer pocket care as suggested, but ...

You may be bulging the Rigby shoulder when seating the bullet or when crimping too vigorously.

The fact that you are deforming the shoulders in some way with FL sizer die screwed down all the way, but better results with it backed off a bit:
That suggests a bulged shoulder for the tight chambering rounds,
but of course also possibly excessive lube causing denting.

Just fire the tight case and be gentler on it the next time you seat and crimp a bullet in the case mouth.
Be careful to uniformly trim the cases to same length, and use the same gentle pressures on the press lever to seat and crimp consistently.

A 2-step works best:
1. Seat all bullets to proper depth without a crimp.
2. Crimp all bullets consistently in a separate step.

The .416 Rigby is prone to shoulder bulging with its 45-degree shoulder.

My version of the ".416 Rigby Improved Plus" (.416 RIP) is simply to change the shoulder angle to 20-degree.
Like on the .423/.416 RIP.
Same shoulder angle is used on the .338 Lapua Magnum.
This increases the .416 Rigby case capacity by a few specs of pepper. Minor improvement.

Hello Daniel,
I've had similar issues and it can be difficult to isolate the problem. Some things you might look at:

Headspace is my first thought. A Stoney Point headspace gauge is the only way to really see what is happening though. A couple of times I have set the sizing die way back like you have, "one thread off" and they chambered tight. After MUCH measuring I found that the shoulder actually moves forward because the body is being reduced and the shoulder is not touched by the die. The solution was to turn the die down until it touches the shell holder or the press cams over (DEPENDNG on brand of press), then move the die up .001" at a time (shim kit) until you have either a zero headspace for range use, or move the shoulder back .001" from fired condition for field use. Turning the die by hand can never be accurate enough because you never really know how much you are moving it. With a thread pitch of 14, you get .071" per revolution which is .001" per 1/64 of a turn. I can't do that. So I bought a shim kit.

http://www.armaster.com/htm/shims.htm

http://www.sinclairintl.com/re...8-14--prod33197.aspx

Dents in the shoulder might mean too much case lube.

Since you think primers my be the problem, size and decap some cases then try them in the chamber. Note the result for each case. Prime them then try in the chamber. Any difference? The primer should be .001" below the case head after seating. Try holding a good straight edge over the seated primer in front of a light source. The primer should not touch the straight edge. Are the CCI's seating the same way? Are you seating the primers fairly snug in the pocket? Winchester mag primers are the next hottest after Federal 215's. Maybe even measure the length of the two different primers you have.


Looking for an out of round or bulged condition in the chamber or sizing die. Try measuring the diameter of the case body in a couple of places length wise and radially, after firing then after sizing. It may take making a jig to hold the case so you get a consistent place on the body for the measurement because of the case taper.

Hope you find the solution.
Dan

There are only three things that can cause this.
1.Primers set out too far.
2. Bullet seating depth too far out.
3. Collapsing the shoulder.
You should seat all primers BELOW the case head. Primers should never ever be seated above the case head. EVER. Feel Ideal is 0.003 below the case head.
Make sure your not collapsing the shoulder by not expanding the case mouth sufficiently before seating a bullet, by adding too much powder and over compressing with the bullet or by not setting your seating die properly. No bulging at all is acceptable. Look at a factory 416 Rigby, does it cause a tight bolt close? I'll bet it doesn't.
Last check your OAL with a unprimed, empty case loaded with the bullet at your desired depth. It should be seated about 0.030 off the lands. The dummy case should provide no tight bolt feel on closing the bolt or opening it and extract smoothly.

there is a simple way to check to verify that the primers are seated flush. Stand the rounds on a table top and watch to see if they wobble.

I had a small issue several years ago with a CZ 9,3x62. About one out of five would wobble.

I bought the RCBS primer seating tool, and it cured the problem.

I always do as Idaho Sharpshooter says with the rocker/wobbler test of the seated primer, if there is any question of the primer not being recessed below flush.
As Robgunbuilder says, ".003-inch," is the number, "by feel."
My index fingertip slid across the seated primer tells me whether to wobble test the round.

Rob has also pointed out a cause for the "collapse" or telescoping of neck into shoulder that causes the shoulder bulging, that is easily cured:
An under-size expander ball, that does not expand the neck enough, causes excessive force in seating the bullet.

Those are the easy ones. Then there are the trickier issues brought up by Dan416.

THROAT vs. BULLET issue:

The .416 Rigby CIP standard chamber has zero parallel-sided free-bore. It is just a leade, and a pretty tight and short one.
Very little effective free-bore. Very little jump of bullet to engagement of rifling.
When I first tried the original/old version of the Swift A-Frame .416/400-grainer in 2001,
I discovered not a single one of them would chamber in my Ruger RSM. Too much full-diameter bullet was above the cannelure.
Had to seat without a crimp and cannelure down inside the neck to chamber a single one.
Swift later changed their nose contour to have no or very little full-diameter (.416) of bullet nose-ward of cannelure.
Full bearing only below the cannelure.
All other bullets I tried worked fine in the .416 Rigby, crimped on the cannelure or with no more than one driving band showing on the GSC bullets.
The original Swifts worked in the .416 Remington, which has some parallel-sided free-bore, but those old bullets were a no-go in the .416 Rigby chamber.

Hi Guys,

Really appreciate the advice. This gives me a few places to look.

Thanks heaps

Daniel

All great advice. I had a similar problem when I first started loading 416 Rigby. Any crimping at all would put the shoulder out of spec. My fix was to get a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Never had the problem again. Check their website, it is money well spent.

What does "flush with the case head " have to do with it ??
Properly the bottom of the primer must be seated all the way to the bottom of the primer hole. Too much and you distort the primer , too little and the force of the firing pin is partially dissipated giving uneven ignition round to round.

I've seen boxes of bad primers where occassional rounds were pushed into the revolver barrel locking up the gun. Also have seen occassional round giving excessive pressure.When these things happen throw out the entire box.

I have had a similiar problem in my wife's 416 Rigby. In our case the solution was dry case neck lube before resizing. It eases the passage of the expander button but also eases the friction of seating a bullet. We experienced case shoulder buckling when seating the bullet which deformed the case enough to prevent chambering.

It is obvious that a 45-degree shoulder is a bad idea.

quote:

Originally posted by 4-5-0:
All great advice. I had a similar problem when I first started loading 416 Rigby. Any crimping at all would put the shoulder out of spec. My fix was to get a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Never had the problem again. Check their website, it is money well spent.

This is the answer if crimping is collapsing the neck, come to think of it this should be the way you crimp a 416Rigby full stop.

The others have given correct advice on how to identify and solve the problem.

Lots of good advice.

I have bought an RCBS priming die (press mount type) and I already have a Lee crimp die.

It's not the crimping, have got that sorted. It seems in some cases to be the primer sitting slightly proud of the case head and some the neck being slightly out of shape.

Am hoping the new primer die will seat better. Not sure why it's not going all the way in on some with the priming set up that came with the press ( big Lyman), but will try this new one.

As for the shoulder, I thought the problem may be a slightly too long case to the neck, but this doesn't appear to be it. Hence winding down the full length die too far is likely causing some shoulder problems, so will leave it wound out about 3/4 of a turn.

Better get these right before I move up to the .505 Gibbs!

Just seems like it nears a lot of care on these bigger cases.

Thanks again everyone.

Cheers

Daniel

Dan416 Has it really nailed down.

If you are careful you can reset the die and you do not need the shim kit. The stoney point too will diagnose the issue.

One other thing that helps a lot is to make sure you have a consistent and adequated amount of lube. Then size the case very slowly allowing about a 2 second dwell when the press hits the top of the stroke. Retract slightly and turn the case 180 degrees and resize again slowly.

I am new to 416 Rigby as well and you can see my threads for any info that you might get from them.

In my CZ 550 416 Rigby I found that 410 gr Woodeigh SN with AR2213SC 98 gr gave me 2280 fps. With your load I would be surprised if you got even 2100 fps for 450 gr bullets.

I would suggest that you chronograph your loads carefully rather than guess.

I am using AR2209 with 400 & 350 gr bullets.

Good luck with your rifle & hunting.

BTW - I full length size the 416 Rigby & get no lengthening with my loads. No need to trim after 3 reloads - same case length. Chambering a round is easy & bolt close & lift is also easy. I do crimp with the seating die as a second operation - very careful to make sure the bullet is seated to half of canelure before crimping.

I am with Nakihunter in regards to your muzzel velocities. Beg borrow or steal a Chrony. I use 106grains of AR2213SC to get 2420fps with 410 Woody SP.

I too have the same chambering and rifle, no problems to speak of, but the same rifle in 458 Lott is a different story!
I crimp and seat in the one pass with my 416, no problem. If it is a high primer causing this, then that's easily fixed, but if it's the shoulder collapsing due to exdessive force during seating, then you will need to measure your neck diameter before and after sizing with the expander removed and, then again with the expander installed and, measure the expander ball as well. The expander should be no more than .002" under bullet diameter (.414"). If there is a large difference (+.010") between the neck diameter before sizing with and without the expander, then this could be causing the shoulder to buckle when the bullet is being seated.
With Norma brass, my necks measure .443" as sized and .445" with a bullet seated, the perfect .002" under bullet diameter. Only careful checking will determine this correctly.
BTW, a heavy crimp is not necessary, it needs only to be adequate to stop a bullet being pushed back into the case during recoil.

Cheers.

While reloading my first batch of ammo for my new 264 WinMag the other day, I noticed that I needed a bit more force to seat the Federal 215M primers flush in the Norma cases. It is the first time I have used Norma cases and, when seating the primers using the RCBS hand tool, I noticed a definite increase is force needed compared to my Remington, Federal, or Winchester cases used in other cartridges. The first round I loaded showed a definite wobble during the table test. After using a pit more squeeze on the hand tool the wobble disappeared and the first batch of 20 rounds chambered and fired fine.

quote:

It seems in some cases to be the primer sitting slightly proud of the case head

I had the exact same problem with Norma 416 Rigby brass. Once I cut the primer pockets uniform for depth the problem went away.


.

I own a CZ 550 chambered in .416 Rigby. I recently purchased four (4) boxes of Federal 400 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claws .416 Rigby ammo and I am unable to completely close the bolt as well. Only 1 of 3 rounds will chamber. However, 100% of Hornady 400 grain DGS and DGX ammo will chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by Cajun1956:
I own a CZ 550 chambered in .416 Rigby. I recently purchased four (4) boxes of Federal 400 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claws .416 Rigby ammo and I am unable to completely close the bolt as well. Only 1 of 3 rounds will chamber. However, 100% of Hornady 400 grain DGS and DGX ammo will chamber.

Check the seating of the primers-I know they are factory loaded-. Run a micrometer over a round that will not fit and one that will see where the difference is.

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
What does "flush with the case head " have to do with it ??
Properly the bottom of the primer must be seated all the way to the bottom of the primer hole. Too much and you distort the primer , too little and the force of the firing pin is partially dissipated giving uneven ignition round to round.

Of course, this is correct, but AFTER this is achieved, the primers should be below sea level as RIP emphasizes. See subsequent post by JTEX.

DK1 have you sorted out the problem yet. Just curious as to what the problem was.

Looks like it is the primers sitting out a bit. Still waiting on the new seating die to see if that helps.

Checked the loads with a chronograph and both solids and softs are running just under 2200fps. I emailed ADI Powders and they recommend 97gr max. I'm running 92 (soft) and 94 (solid) for the 450gr.

Suppose I could add another couple of grains but in the real world that's not going to do much.

106gr behind a 410gr sounds pretty warm, unless ADI are being very conservative?

Cheers

Daniel

DK1, the traditional Rigby load was a 410gr bullet at around 2380 fps. You would get that with around 102 gr of AR2213SC. That is a real low pressure load. Many people now load the 416 Rigby with 400gr bullets to over 2600 fps. This is max for modern rifles like the CZ 550 mag etc.

If you look at 416 Weatherby loads - they are max at around 2700 fps http://www.loaddata.com/member...r%20Reloading%20Data. The case capacity is very similar to the 416 Rigby. Max pressures in a Rigbyy case is normally 2 or 3 grains less than a Weatherby case - say 50 to 100 fps less.

I find the high pressure loads a bit heavy on recoil. I shoot the traditional loads better in my rifle. I will now settle for 400 gr bullets with 92 gr of AAR2209 (H43350) for around 2400 fps.

You will also find that AR22113SC loads need 6 to 8 grains more powder & this increases recoil.

Thanks for the info. That's interesting. Woodleigh actually gave me the original load of 94gr AR2213SC and suggested that should give 2300fps.

AR2209 seems to suit well and will also work in my new .338 Win Mag.

I have a box of 400gr Barnes TSX so will try your load.

Even if my loads are mild, thy shoot 1" at 100m and 3 of 4 cape buff have been one shot, so they seem to work. However, seems like there is plenty more to go.

Any idea what I could put behind the 450gr Woodleigh's with either powder?

Cheers

While RIP is correct about the 45degree shoulder being delicate, once you have worked out a system you shouldn't have a problem:
use a little lube on the neck mouth when sizing,
crimp as a separate operation after seating,
make sure that the bullet is not seated out too far as the 416Rigby has close to zero "freebore",
and definitely crimp your bullets on a cannelure so that they have a ridge to resist recoil setback on bullets in a magazine.
On neck thickness, I've found the Hornady brass to be great and less expensive than Norma. Five years ago I got a shipment of Norma brass where 59 of a 100 weighed 327-330 grains and 41 weighed 38-40 grains. Go figure! I didn't have problems with the heavier cases but that kind of quality control could lead to different neck thicknesses.

As to loadings, I've just posted a report in the Terminals thread with pictures of nice rounded primers on loads that produce 6200 ftlbs at muzzle. It's very comfortable in the big CZ rifles. Enjoy the rifle.

This post and the nearby one "Getting hammered by a 416 Remington" really do show why the 404 Jeffery is so good, and why it has become one of the most successful bolt action cartridges for African hunting. The Brits were not stupid, well mostly, and they soon realised a case with a decent neck, good tapered shoulder and loaded to around the 2,200fps MV provided for an easy shooting, accurate and extremely effective DG rifle that has well and truly stood the test of time.

Of course after producing the 404 the stupid ones came along and made the 416 Rigby, the 505 and the 500 all with little issues and design faults when it comes to reloading. Of course reloading cartridges was furthest from the inventor's mind back in those days so those who have to have a cartridge that loves collapsing shoulders, or one that has minimal shoulder, or has a belt and is loaded to the hilt to get some performance out of it, deservedly get something to complain about