Frederic Courtenay Selous wrote that he had to get close to game because he could not shoot very accurately. The reason, he said, was that at the start of his career he shot a 4-bore muzzleloader and this had "destroyed" his nerves. Kick from the rifle in question often knocked him down or knocked him off his horse. The nerve problem apparently persisted even though he switched to smokeless powder smaller bores after 1900.

Does anyone know what this effect is?

Indy, Recall reading the same thing. I got the impression Selous was referring to a permanent flinch having developed i.e. psychological. It's possible he could have suffered an actual physical condition. Not sure how that could be verified though.

.

Yes, and Baker's gun, "Baby," typically "spun him around like a top" when he shot it.
I'd flinch too!

Nerve damage or conditioned reflex? I have shot big bores all my life and after having shoulder surgery I've had problems. When I shoot a big bore my shoulder muscles start quivering after a few shot. Involuntary spasums that I have no control over. Sometimes when I go prone and tighen up my shoulder starts quivering. Thankfully I don't flinch too often but do sometimes when target shooting. After shooting 200+ rounds of 500 Nitro in the last couple of weeks I think my shoulder is getting used to it and not quivering quite as bad.

Gents:
I've read it all as to recoil and the big bores whilst researching the .600 book. Folks have written of having teeth loosened, fillings coming out, being spun around 1/2 to a full turn, breaking one's shoulder or collar bone, and being lifted up from the prone position and flipped head over heels! All nonsense. A .600 nitro will see muzzles rise 6-8 inches, and big 4-bores with a heavy charge maybe twice that--at most. I have photos of Elmer Keith with the muzzles pointing to the sky and the best-known of today's writers doing the same. Just doesn't happen. Yes, they kick like hell but are not unmanageable. On the other hand, writers also write of not feeling the kick at all and of an 8-bore being no more than a .30-06. The truth lies in the middle but the truth does not make for exciting copy.
Cheers,
Cal
PS. I'm going out to shoot my .600 single shot Jeffery and then have a good visit with Elvis.

.

In his old age, Baker had to be led around by the hand and was incapable of taking care of himself. Was this the result of brain damage, like a punch-drunk boxer or did he have Parkinson's or some form of dementia? We will never know.

Though I canot swear that it is true, neurosurgeons I have known when in the hospital business told me that heavy rifle recoil was just like catching a good stiff left jab from Muhammed Ali...and that enough of those jabs would leave one just as his opponents left him. That is, with severe cumulative brain damage from banging the brain against the inside of one's own skull. It can also reportedly result in detached retinas and other less-than-good things.

Occasional shots even from heavy recoiling guns are not likely too much of a problem, but I believe the advice I got (to not do it more than is really necessary) is probably well-founded.

ALF, one of the old-timers was an Englishman, and he wrote his memoirs.

Here's a good description of the kind of recoil they dealt with from The Recollections of William Finaughty: Elephant Hunter 1864-1875:

"You sportsmen of to-day, just imagine what it was to carry all day in the blazing sun a heavy old muzzle-loader with your powder loose in one jacket pocket, a supply of caps in another and your bullets in your pouch. Add to this a gun that "kicked" one's shoulder with almost as much force as the bullet struck the elephant, and you can believe me that it was no child's play. In fact the recoil was so great that I was more than once knocked down by it and on two occasions I was taken completely out of the saddle. One's shoulder was literally black and blue after a day's elephant shooting.

. . . We came across any number of elephant spoor and on the following day I got hold of them with my twelve-bore breech-loader, and I never had such a punishing time in my life. I was using home-made cartridges. The bullets I had moulded myself and made very hard, and the cartridges were filled almost to the top with fine powder. The recoil was awful, and it makes my eyes moist even to-day to think of it. I did not feel it so much at the first two or three shots, but afterwards each shot brought excruciating agony.

. . . On the following morning I could not lift my arm. My shoulder and chest were simply black and blue, very tender and greatly swollen. Suffice it to say that I could not use my arm for a fortnight and it did not increase my admiration for the newly-invented breech-loader, for elephant shooting at any rate."

No properly made rifle I have ever fired has hurt me. And I have fired rifles generating well over 100 ft.-lbs. of recoil energy. Poor fitting and poorly made rifles can still cause some damage, however, even these days.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:


No properly made rifle I have ever fired has hurt me. And I have fired rifles generating well over 100 ft.-lbs. of recoil energy. Poor fitting and poorly made rifles can still cause some damage, however, even these days.

And with any luck it will continue that way for you, forever.

Brain damage is often like hearing damage....though it CAN be done with just one severe incident, it is often the result of small offenses against the organ(s) involved, repeated over and over again.

That's perhaps why Ali spent years in boxing before there was any apparent permanent damage to him. It is also why for the first 30 or 40 years of my shooting life I felt pretty much immune to hearing loss. I wore Peltor TAC-7s (26 db advertised noise reduction) and felt safe.

But now, after 60+ years of shooting, I wear hearing aids every day, turned all the way up...and lo and behold, I find that my cat, who I always felt was kind of stand-offish, in fact starts to purr like crazy when I just say "hi" to her.

Has anyone ever experienced or heard of detached retina's from heavy recoil? An uncle of mine has a large bore double blackpowder rifle that did that to him. He re-rifled and restored an old original that had enough meat to bore out and re-rifle. The balls weighed 700grs each, and shot best with a dose of 140gr of FF if I remember correctly. It shot very well too.

I broke my elbow back in October and just had my second surgery to repair it. So I haven't been able to shoot my big bores for four months now and it is definitely getting on my nerves.

quote:

Originally posted by matt salm:
Has anyone ever experienced or heard of detached retina's from heavy recoil? An uncle of mine has a large bore double blackpowder rifle that did that to him. He re-rifled and restored an old original that had enough meat to bore out and re-rifle. The balls weighed 700grs each, and shot best with a dose of 140gr of FF if I remember correctly. It shot very well too.

In a word, Yes.

At least that's what the docs said was the cause of retinal detachments two shooters I know have been afflicted with (years apart).

And I personally have had the "curtain" (can't remember the proper name) at the back of the eye tear loose, fall down within the eye, and fill my right eye with blood.

Made it impossible to see with it until after a couple of months and several trips to eye specialists in a big city. The couple of months was mainly required to give the eye time to re-absorb all that blood. Anyway, they told me it was shooting some of my heavy recoiling rifles which did the damage, and forbade me to shoot anything larger than a .22 RF for a year. (They actually told me not to shoot anything, but I got so excited at that order that they relented and let me shoot .22RFs.)

Not a pleasant experience, I can tell you, especially as it happened on my birthday.

Common sense can help, too. There have been times when nerves in my shooting hand feel funny. So I stop shooting for the day.

If people enjoy shooting 50 rounds of 6000+ ftlb energy in light rifles, fine. But most of the time less than a dozen shots or just one or two groups will suffice. It's like a fine wine, or a half-shot of straight single malt. It's the quality not the quantity that one enjoys.

I would certainly agree with that. Getting ready for a DG safari should take about six months starting with making sure the Big Killer is sighted in. Then work your way up to being able to shoot off the sticks about five rounds rapid fire. Then, when you get home, put the blamed thing away. There must be some less damaging way to get your adrenaline fix for the day then being belted in the chops by some Class IV DGR.

Alberta Canuck,

Its called PVD, or posterior vitreous detachment...the vitreous becomes the detached curtain; however, a detached retina can also mimic the symptoms of PVD.

Oh Finaughty and his fine powder...have we learned from this yet? I am not so sure that I am not guilty of the modern day equivalent...perhaps many of us are.

Respects,

Phill

quote:

Originally posted by WHITE HUNTER BLACK HEART:
Alberta Canuck,

Its called PVD, or posterior vitreous detachment...the vitreous becomes the detached curtain; however, a detached retina can also mimic the symptoms of PVD.

Oh Finaughty and his fine powder...have we learned from this yet? I am not so sure that I am not guilty of the modern day equivalent...perhaps many of us are.

Respects,

Phill

Phill...right you are!! That's what the diagnosis of mine was, anyway.

I gather that vitreous layer becomes more "fragile" as we age, too. Is that correct?

If so, seems to me as if it is another one of Mother Nature's "tricks" on us...when we get to where we can afford big boomers and Africa, Nature says "Hey Fella! Don't forget the 'moderation in all things' lesson I've been trying to teach you all your life!"

Too soon old; too late smart.

P.S.: Gather you are either an opthomologist or an optometrist? Amazing how many shooters are....

Srose,
My right shoulder has had damage from several sources and repeated firing, 10 shots or so, of about any rifle from 30-06 up will generate the quivering for me. The more I shoot the worse it gets until I stop. I can't induce the same thing on a weight machine so I have thought it must be due to the nerve ending around the scar tissue firing off not in "proper order" as it were. It goes away quickly and I don't worry about it but it does happen.
Best regards,
dmw

Alberta Canuck,

It seems that God has a sense of humor when it comes to the dreams and hopes of the hunting man, if not all men. Micro traumas seem to follow us around all of our lives, snipping and biting off tidbits as we go, then, in a torrential moment, bring us crashing to earth with some semi-crippling injury but moments before we are to board the plane to Africa or Australia...or something like that.

Ironically, I am actually not in eye care or medicine, but a retired law enforcement officer. One of the officers that I partnered with on occasion had a PVD while bear hunting in Alaska, but fortunately for him, not until the shot that dropped the bruin for good rang true...anyway, he and I talked about it, and other related shooting injuries, extensively, as he knew that I was a big bore nut, with the ultra bores being my real passion...his 416 injury "scared" him more for me, I think, than for him, as I jump way up there in the higher numbers for similar hunts...it got us both thinking how much is really necessary, and how much shooting time with those big/bigger/biggest bores is necessary when contrasted against short range BG/DG pursuits, with proficient marksmanship being the obvious standard. This, as opposed to simple reckless abandon with such popguns while at the range. His eye healed slowly, but in all fairness, his trauma was cumulative, as he had far more experience and time on his side than I, including many decades of big bore range sessions...but still, the point is taken to heart...

And, you are right about age and time weakening the "curtains", though one (1) major trauma can do the same damage and bring the "curtains" down.

Respectfully,

Phill

Michael,

consider this an open invitation to meet me at SCI next year in Reno and shoot my 550 Gibbs.

Eleven pounds, 615gr Macifej solid at 2550fps MV.

Rich

...no disrespect intended, but, which one is Michael?

Respects,

Phill

I could see the possibility of some sort of nerve damage similar to a brachial plexus injury.
As for a cumulative brain injury, not so sure.
For the most part, the shooters head stays fairly stationary while shooting, even while shooting the heavier recoiling rifles. Even if the shooter's grip hand hits the shooter innthe cheek, it is a pretty blunt impact.
Now getting chopped in the forehead with a scope is a sharper blow to the head.
It all comes down to proper rifle fit and grip (not in evidence in the photo ALF posted). That is why some such as Selby can use a 416 Rigby for years with no apparent problems.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
I could see the possibility of some sort of nerve damage similar to a brachial plexus injury.
As for a cumulative brain injury, not so sure.
For the most part, the shooters head stays fairly stationary while shooting, even while shooting the heavier recoiling rifles. Even if the shooter's grip hand hits the shooter innthe cheek, it is a pretty blunt impact.
Now getting chopped in the forehead with a scope is a sharper blow to the head.
It all comes down to proper rifle fit and grip (not in evidence in the photo ALF posted). That is why some such as Selby can use a 416 Rigby for years with no apparent problems.

The way the individual holds the rifle and the face structure/comb fit are relevant. A lot of folks are built so that the comb slaps the bottom and side of their cheek-bone every time they fire their rifle, if the comb shape/height/thickness isn't made to prevent that.

A person who believes in the cheek-weld taught by the american military is more liable to get knocked on the head by his hard kicking big thumper rifle than the person who shoots "British-style" with his head held almost straight up, looking straight ahead, rather than with his neck craned over resting his head on the comb. A little "cast-off" in the buttstock can help a lot.

None of that is going to explain every circumstance for every person. Some get whacked for one reason or another...maybe for several reasons. Others don't.

It none-the-less can cause cumulative damage for those who do get pool-cued up along-side their heads by their rifles. At least that's what the docs I've worked with have told me.

Life is choices. Sometimes we make good ones, sometimes poor ones. We ALL still have to live with the results of our own, lucky or unlucky as they might be.

quote:

Huvius: ...
For the most part, the shooters head stays fairly stationary while shooting, even while shooting the heavier recoiling rifles.

quote:

Albert: ...
the person who shoots "British-style" with his head held almost straight up, looking straight ahead, rather than with his neck craned over resting his head on the comb

that's good advice and good descriptions.

I didn't know that it was 'british' vs. 'US'.
I've naturally gone that way because I learned to hunt in africa where I saw most of my friends cut their eyebrows. So I've always had this thing for long eye-relief on scopes, and good head posture. The scope hasn't cut me or my son yet, but our glasses have been touched, maybe. Sometimes it's hard to tell when, if, and why they move.

As pointed out above, a well fitted stock helps, especially if it supports your head in-line with your sighting system. Well fitted varies widely with a given shooter's body habitus (conformation).Over-use injuries in the shoulder cause both arthritis and a follow chronic rotator cuff tear and scarring (the under surface of the acromium develops arthritis in the form of "Shark's teeth" that shred the supraspinatus and infraspinatous tendons of the rotator cuff.)

During rotator cuff/arthritis repair surgery the worn and torn structures are stretched tight to get enough "meat" and "sinew" to attach to the humerus bone. These structures then impinge (squeeze) nerves in the shoulder. There is also direct scarring that forms around shoulder nerves, further constricting them in their sheaths. The net result is increased pain and irritation from the nerve.

My favorite neurosurgeon once told me, "Charlie, all we do in this business is try to relieve pressure on nervous tissue and brain tissue."

So shooting heavy recoiling rifles causes scarring and compression of shoulder nerves over a period of years. A poorly fit stock contributes to direct, small but relentless, "mini" concussions over a period of years. Neither outcome is especially desirable.

An especially hard hit from a stock to the head can cause a full-blown contre-coup/whiplash injury.

So, make sure the rifle fits, and that you hold and handle it correctly. Also, remember that you cannot fool your body. It remembers every cumulative occurrence of physical damage.

"Man-up", "Cowboy-up", "toughen up" and "practice" are psychological phrases that do not address mechanical damage. Each shooter must decide how much long term damage they are willing to absorb in their shooting careers.

L/D

PS The worst scope cut/face smash came from a 257 Roberts when I crawled the stock way too much. I just had to kill that Rock chuck, duh.

quote:

nuerosurgeons I have known when in the hospital business told me that heavy rifle recoil was just like catching a good stiff left jab from Muhammed Ali..

If this were true every trap shooter on the planet would have brains of jelly.

quote:

So, make sure the rifle fits, and that you hold and handle it correctly. Also, remember that you cannot fool your body. It remembers every cumulative occurrence of physical damage.

So I guess that some of the brand names like "Limbsaver" recoil pads are more than metaphor.

With some medical, physiological expertise on the thread we may be able to get some insight on a related little mystery.

If I haven't shot a rifle for a longish time (say a half year or more) and then do a test session at a bench, it produces brusing that lasts a week or so. (And shooting the next day on top of fresh brusing can be quite painful.) However, after three weeks when the brusing has healed, there is no pain and little if any brusing. It seems as if the shoulder is 'ready' for what comes.

What causes this diminished brusing and pain?

If I learn more about that process, I might even come up with a recipe for conditioning, just like in other sports. And protective recoil pads are a must. I do try to remember an extra shoulder pad at the bench.


PS: A friend hand-carried from Czechia a one-piece scope mount for a CZ550 magnum for a scope with only 4.75" mounting space. (We have a Nikon slughunter, with 5" eye-relief, that we would like to mount on the CZ.) The scope mount looks nice and it should hold up since it's steel (a couple of years ago I bent and ripped a Tikka aluminum ring retainer pin on a 338.) We'll put this CZ mount on one of our Rigbys and try it out this year among the beesties. CZ-USA really needs to add these to their services. I will appreciate going from a 4" eye-relief to 5.0" at all magnifications.

IMO,the whole body including the brain will absorb the shock regardless of the rifle fitting you, which position the head is held,especially if you shoot from the standing position and not off the bench.It is much like a hockey or football player receiving a body hit.There are players who have had there careers shortened just by taking a couple of hard hits.You cannot compare the recoil of a shotgun or a 308 rifle to an unbreaked 458 lott or something larger.A few practice sessions,spaced very far apart,using five or six rounds won`t do that to you,especially if it comes to an end sometime down the line.If however you shoot 20 or so rounds every week and keep it up for months or a couple of years then IMO,you risk getting a concussion.I have tons of powder and bullets for my lott that I have not used despite that I love to shoot and it is not for any other reason than the one I mentioned that I`ve not used them.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

nuerosurgeons I have known when in the hospital business told me that heavy rifle recoil was just like catching a good stiff left jab from Muhammed Ali..

If this were true every trap shooter on the planet would have brains of jelly.

Sorry, but that simply isn't correct. Folks shooting shotguns are swinging them and holding them in an entirely different way than most folks shooting rifles, most of the time. They are not trying to "aim" them and or achieve a "steady" sight picture.

The more a person shoots heavy rifles at large dangerous game up close, the more he learns to use it as if it was a shotgun, but danged few users of heavy rifles have the opportunity to learn that or to use their guns that way.

At any rate, any who wish to believe they can never be harmed by continual recoil from heavy rifles are welcome to believe exactly that.

Won't make it any more true than believing that constant, perpetual, war against any country that does not copy our government system, will make U.S. citizens safer in the world.

Interesting and entertaining thread

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Interesting and entertaining thread

My DGR floats like a bee and stings like a butterfly.

Or something like that.

I think.

Or, anyway, I used to think.

Or did I?

Is it time for my meds yet?

.

A) I've seen some of the nuts on here almost get pushed over, shooting a 600 OK. (Sitting on a cooler probably wasn't the best shooting position.)

B) I don't about brain injury, but I could certainly see nerve damage being a problem.

With the exception of guys in Selous' era who had no choice the rest of us are protected from monster bore recoil damage by the simple fact the recoil puts us off high volume shooting.

I think the modern guy most in danger of damage is more likely to be the prolific 400-458 wildcatters or guys who have a fetish for bench shooting 416's 460's etc. These seem to be the ones turning up the long term spine injuries, retina problems etc

I have no interest in 458's or even light 45-70's or any rifle for that generating more than about 35 to 40 pounds of free recoil.

Why? Cronic recurrent carpal tunnel in my right wrist. (Four rounds out of a friends 458Win and three of my fingers went numb.) The most god-awful case of tennis elbow, healed but every once in a while it reminds me it's still there. (Can't use a fly rod heavier than 5 wt, even then... Rifle shooting, at first, it seemed nothing happened then I noticed that if I tried to shoot anything prone -even with sniper elbow pads- pain!) Then there's the right sholder that clicks and growns, the spine right about sholder level that has a tendency go south if pounded on too much.

Very happy with my 9.3x62, but I limited my practice to no more than 10 to 15 rounds per seccession. I really love my 7x57R/12ga70, recoil is nigh non-existant, and so far everything has dropped dead. Oh, and I have no use for 3&1/2" 12ga loads even out of a auto, ducks and geese die just as well from 2&3/4" loads and I don't have a headache and neck/back pain by mid morning...

My doctor told me pain is your body telling you to stop whatever it is that you are doing because if you don't your body will eventually stop it for you.

You might want to look at Egoscue - those exercises have me helped quite a bit - so did accepting that I need to go nowhere near a strongman implement...

(OK, so I'm going to go do some keg presses in a few minutes, but that's not heavy enough to count...)

I started my shooting career with a 12 Gauge shotgun at 8 years of age.
My Pop caught me and the shotgun in backward free fall.
After that everything got easier.

I cannot recall any pain from recoil in my life.
The fingers on my right hand tingle electrically sometimes if I relax too much with a heavy kicker.
I just tighten up the shoulder pocket and grip tighter with both hands if that happens.

Nerve damage and flinchitis? Nah!
However regular big bore rifle and 12 Gauge From Hell shooting will turn your hair white.
I am well on the way.

RIP at age 46 benchwrestling a 577 T. rex:



RIP at age 56, with a 500 Mbogo and .395 Tatanka, on safari:



I rest my case.

Maybe Ed Hubel can chip in and tell us something about his recoil experiences with his monsterous loads.

Look may be deceiving, but judging from the pictures posted here, his rifles doesn't seem to be exceedingly heavy.

Pyzda

Shooting a light weight 4 bore muzzle loader with hefty charges of black powder and a 4oz ball is interesting. I don't know that I would call it control as much as trying to to keep your hands on the rifle and your body mass behind the recoil energy. And yes, a few shots can leave you with the early symptoms of a mild concussion. Reading the old African hunting stories convinces me that some of those men were made of tougher stuff than most of us.

What are the chances of finding 10+ year old video after a couple of computer crashes?
4 bore light
4 bore medium
4 bore heavy

It's been a while but I remember thinking that 250 ft lbs of recoil was a good place to stop.