Anyone have any experience with the 50 Beowulf AR-15? This sounds like a mighty impressive bear hunting platform to me. I am very interested in hearing from those that have one of these rifles as I can concerned with feeding and headspacing.

Also would like any information you all could provide regarding:
How many rounds fit in the standard AR
10 rd magazine
20 rd magazine
30 rd magazine
40 rd magazine

Sources for brass, reloading dies, and reloading data.

Thanks,
Axel

I thought you quit.

I suggest that you explain why a radically rebated rim, like the 50 Beo, will be no problemo in a rifle known to be fickle in any event.

500grains, I do not know if this rebated rim is a good thing or a bad thing, that is why I am asking about feeding. I ask about head spacing since this cartridge head spaces on the case mouth, like the 30 carbine.

I take it from your post that you have no first hand experience with the Alexander Arms AR15.

By the way, I do not recall saying I quit. I have been busy lately and haven't had the time to post.

Axel

Try www.tromix.com, I think that they have what your looking for..... Big bore assault rifles... give me a break.

I played with the Beowulf at the shot show. They are cool guns and I will get an upper one of these days.

They sell the dies, brass, and ammo

www.alexanderamrs.com

[ 03-28-2003, 05:58: Message edited by: RomaRana ]

I've shot the .50 Beowulf, and it's a great rifle. The rebated rim is turned down to the diameter of a 7.62X39 case, so it can use a standard AR15 boltface. It shoots great, it's accurate(I nailed bowling pins at 400 yards), and shoots something like a 20 ga. slug gun. It fed well, and did not malfunction at all. I think you can fit around 12 or 13 rounds in a 30 round GI mag. As for the AR being fickle, mine has gone over 800 rounds now since the last serious cleaning, with only a squirt of oil to keep things wet. It hasn't malfunctioned at all.

[ 03-28-2003, 06:09: Message edited by: Urodoji ]

7 rounds of 50 B in 10 round 223 mag so extrapolate from that, 14 in a 20, 21 in a 30, 28 in a 40. I am currently waiting for a stainless steel AR-15 lower (black T) to build a .50 B on, that extra pound of weight sure is not going to hurt anything in what is basically a semi-auto .45-70. I know what a 7 pound .45-70 can do to your shoulder when loaded fairly stiff so the extra pound with the stainless steel lower should be a welcome addition. As far as finicky, not in my two ARs. I keep them well cleaned but often go out and shoot 100 to 300 rounds in an afternoon without any problems at all, but I don't shoot crap ammo either. Slow fire off a BR to asfastasIcanpullthetrigger BS shooting and I have never had a FTE or FTF that was not magazine related. I often buy used mags and sometimes they need new mag springs, but so goes the war when buying milsurp mags. Sure's not the rifle's fault if the mags are screwed up. True, I don't drag them through the mud, but I don't do that with any of my firearms, so why would I do that with my ARs. Reloading dies, brass, and loading data is only available from Alexander Arms right now. The Uppers are available from Cabellas and other AA dealers. Any FFL should be able to order you in one though. My local dealer said they got to play with one when they were considering becoming an AA outlet and they had no problems at all with it. They did however decline becoming an outlet due to what they thought would be a limited sales market and if memory is correct, AA wanted a huge minimum order they were not comfortable with. As AA says, if you are going to make a hole in something, make it as big as possible. Isn't that the premise behind the whole big-bore mystique anyway? Why not would this apply to semis also? The most often critisim I hear about the AR is that it is a mouse-gun, not suitable for anything bigger than a groundhog. Not any more!

Have played with both the 50B and the 458Socom,of the two I think the Socom makes more sense,round count is about the same but it works with out having to modify the lips of the magizines

Thanks for the information gentlemen. Regarding the magazine lip modifications. Can someone explain in more detail what is involved?

Thanks again,
Axel

Dave is absolutely right. There will be some mods to the .50 B mag so you darned sure want to keep them separate from your x15 mags. I may be wrong, but I have the impression that all that is needed is bending the feed lips up some to increase the cartridges angle of attack into the chamber. Very easy to do with smooth faced duck-bill pliers. I've had to correct the angle on several milsurp AR mags that were a bit dinged in storage. The easiest way is since the upper comes with one mag, load it up and then load up your milsurp mags and then correct the lips until the feed angle is the same. That's what I had to do-among other things-when I modified a bunch of M3 mags for my SW-45-PDW.

[ 03-29-2003, 22:49: Message edited by: Big Bore ]

Dave & Big Bore, Do you guys think one could make a purpose built magazine follower, which corrected the stack angle? This would also minimize the possibility of mixing up magazines since the followers would be visibly VERY different.

Axel

1. An AR-15 is not an "assault rifle".

2. It is a gas-operated self loading rifle, semi-automatic.

The power of media brainwashing shines for all to see.

Well said Roger.

The standard follower works just fine, so there is no need to change it. For ID purposes, I suppose one could paint them some bright color. Some would wear off, but not all. The feed lips control the angle of attack of the cartridge into the chamber on the AR, so they are what needs to be modified if my information is correct. If you look at a loaded AR mag, the bullets barely clear the top leading edge of the magazine. So, if you put in a big fat blunt nose bullet like the .50 B, it most likely will not clear the mag. Bending the lips up toward the front will allow the bullet to tip up more and clear the front of the mag and be in position for entering the chamber. Again, I am not certain on this but this is my understanding which is subject to change without notice.

Anyone involved in shooting and the freedom to bear arms should use that term. assault weapon

not

Big bore
Who is making the stainless lower?
Jim

DPMS makes two, one in natural stainless finish and one black Teflon coated. Retail is $370 for the black and $350 for the natural. But, from Brownells if you can work out a deal with an FFL holder, the dealer cost is $190 black, $170 natural. I do wish to point out that there is no reason whatsoever for using the stainless lower other than additional weight. There have been no durability issues that I have heard of using the standard aluminum AR-15 lower. Those prices are for a stripped lower, nothing else. They weigh 12 ounces more than a standard aluminum lower, not a pound like I said earlier. You can also add weight by adding a competition buttstock weight for only $20-about 2.5 pounds worth-but since I'm not the brightest bulb in the box I decided to add the weight with a SS receiver instead of a lead butt weight. The .50 B uses a big barrel, but it has a big hole in it also. I felt that by adding a weight in the stock the rifle would be terribly butt heavy and by using the SS lower, the weight would be more between the hands and balance better. I guess we'll see. By the way, I don't know if Brownells have them in stock or not, but the one I ordered is coming direct from DPMS and they are out right now and not expecting any more to be done for about 3 weeks.

i have 2 ar-15. Could I just buy a new upper for the 50 Beauwolf? What is the cost for a flattop versioin vs the handle?

Sure can. all that is needed is the upper. The Entry upper, 16" bbl, flat top, with no carry handle clamp-on rear sight or clamp-on front sight, complete with bolt (I do not know if that includes bolt carrier or charging handle assembly) usually sell for between $600 and $625. The price goes up from there if you want the overmatch, overmatch plus, precision, or 24". All their uppers are flat-tops and use Rock River uppers, and lowers too if you get a complete rifle. For specs check out their web page, http://www.alexanderarms.com/beowulf.html, but I don't know the prices.
If you have large pin Colt lowers, you will need a front pin adapter, they sell for under $10 from most AR type dealers.

[ 03-31-2003, 06:30: Message edited by: Big Bore ]

I just ordered a Beowulf upper for a customer today. Cost on the upper alone is $629.14. Add 180 if you want the muzzle brake.

[ 03-31-2003, 21:55: Message edited by: Urodoji ]

There is no such thing as an "assault weapon". This term was created in a working paper by Josh Sugarmann of the "violence policy center".

It is a descriptor that may mean nothing and anything. It is specifically used to brainwash people to believe a particular type of firearm is "bad". The intent was/is (successful) in dividing and conquering the firearms community. All you need for proof of this is to post a question regarding accurizing an AR-15 or FN-FAL on a benchrest forum and those lilly-livered nodcocks will go off on you. You are bad and only want to kill people because you have a "bad" type of firearm.
Nuff said.

Roger- You are right.

An AUTOLOADING big power rifle is called

a BATTLE-RIFLE...In military terms assault rifle

means low power and selective fire. AXEL please

use the term battle rifle from now on when

referring to the 50 Beowulf.Might start a

Trend...Ed.

Gentlemen, allow me to apologize for using the incorrect terminology.

Ed, a battle rifle refers to a shoulder held rifle that fires a medium machine gun cartridge. So an FN FAL, M14, G3, M1, L1A1, K98, M1903, etc are all battle rifles. Battle rifles may be repeaters, selective or semi auto only.

An "assault rifle" come from the german STURMGEWEHR (storm rifle). These were specialized arms firing an intermediate power i.e. power level between pistol and medium machine gun cartridges, cartridge effective to approximately 400 meters. These rifles were designed to be selective fire i.e. semi or full automatic.

So using the above accepted definitions the AR 15 is neither! The 50 Beowulf is not, in my opinion anyway, in the same class as a medium machine gun cartridge. The range limitations of the 50 Beowulf to me put it squarely in the "assault rifle" category.

Not to argue with Mr. Rothchild's statements I shall refrain from using the term "assualt rifle".

From now on I shall refer to the AR15 in 50 Beowulf as an:
" semiauto AR15 50 Beowulf Sturmgewehr".

I am positive no anti-gun freak coined the term "Sturmgewehr"!

Finally, thanks to everyone who contributed. Sounds as though no one has really worked with one of these rifles yet.

Axel

HI,

BIG BORE, this has really caught my eye big time. I have a AR15, but I have always felt it is way to small. I saw this and I am very interested and my credit card is open for some items.Can I oreder the upper and it will work with my lower, reciever of my AR 15. I love the HSG which is used for hunting but I am sure it will be fine for self- defense.I am wondering how long is the barrel in the HSG, I also loke the fact it can shoot out to 400 yards. Thanks,Kev

Axel, I haven't made a comment about your question on the magizines due to the fact I am not a gunsmith,I'm one of those pull and replace armour's for my dept. We carry Sig's, You can contact Alexander Arms for the 50 or Trimox on the 458 they can answer your questions on the feeding issue,and Brockmans is makeing a bolt gun in 50 Bea on the little CZ action,
As I said of the two I would go with the 458 Socom due to mag issue, I now have about 1000 rounds down range between the two, Cor-bon has the ammo and its not cheap, I don't remember what the dies are. The 458 I have shot at a 100 yards with the 350grain slug ,the 50 I have only shot to 150 yards so far.If you want a play toy for Bears,pigs and lite amourer vechicles this is your ticket
Check the Cabelas' catalog they had the uppers in 50 for sale.

[ 04-01-2003, 13:50: Message edited by: Dave James ]

With all these posts, I'm surprised that no one brought up the issue of bullets, which I raised in another thread concerning this round. When it came out, I was really impressed with it and thought I would want one. However, if I remember correctly, acceptable bullets are few and far between due to its rather odd bore diameter. At the time, it looked like Corbon trying to set up a proprietary supply arrangement. For this reason I thought the Socom would be a better choice. For all you guys shooting these, what bullets are you using? The last time I checked, it looked like bullets were essentially a single source item (Corbon/Beowolf) just like the brass.

Not so. There are plenty of suitable projos. AA has 5 factory loads now, with Speer, Barnes, and a few other bullet makers. Any .50 AE bullet can be used as far as I know. Brass is not expensive either. Gun Blast has a review of the Beowulf system. I vaguely recall them mentioning that mag capacity was 12 rounds with a 30 round GI mag. They single stack.

[ 04-01-2003, 21:50: Message edited by: Urodoji ]

I guess I would have to respecfully disagree that there is a wide choice of bullets available. I just did a check to make sure. I checked Speer, Barnes, Sierra, Nosler and Hornady. I came up with exactly one bullet, a 325 Speer. This bullet is designed for 1400 fps, not 1900. This would make any AE .50 bullet suspect in my mind. Although there is a Barnes bullet listed in the factory loadings, this bullet doesn't appear to be available to the general public. The bullets offered to reloaders through factory channels appear to cost on the order of $2 each. While there are some semi-customs available I am sure, such as Hawk or CorBon, I doubt they are much cheaper. My original assesment seems to still be true, that bullet/component supply is a proprietary thing and shooting is extremely expensive. That's a pretty bad position for a "fun" gun like an AR. If you can quote some specific bullets, sources and prices for cheap and common components, I would appreciate it.

Alexander has two factory bullets listed at 99.00/500, a 334 grain flat nose FMJ, and a 334 grain hollow point. The 325 grain solid hollow point Barnes bullet isn't catalogued by Barnes, but I'm sure if you called them they could provide you with some. I'm not sure on the availability of the 400 grain Hawk projectile, but I'm sure they wouldn't mind selling them either. The Beowulf was never intended to be a fun weekend Wolf ammo plinker. It certainly isn't an AK. The ammo is expensive, but then again, it was designed for military use, and Uncle Sam doesn't much care what the cost of ammo is.

[ 04-02-2003, 00:13: Message edited by: Urodoji ]

Kev; The AA upper will attach to any AR-15 lower except Colt. For use on a Colt lower, you need an offset pivot pin, less than $10. Otherwise, they just go right on and you are good to go. On all the AA uppers, except the 24" version due out soon, the barrel is 16" long. The Precision upper uses a free float tube and the others use standard forend, the only difference being accessories that come with it, such as bolt on front and rear sights.
Bullets I found that are .500 diameter or can be sized to .500 diameter:
300 gr. Speer GD
325 gr. Speer & GD
270 gr. Beartooth Lead
350 gr. Beartooth Lead
325 gr. NEI Lead
350 gr. NEI Lead
480 gr. NEI Lead
275 gr. Barnes MLX (for .54 ML but measure .500)
325 gr. Barnes MLX (for .54 ML but measure .500)
275 gr. Barnes XPB
334 gr. AA-factory available for reloading
265 gr. Swift A-Frame (.54 cal ML bullet)
325 gr. Swift A-Frame (.54 cal. ML bullet)

True, not a great selection of bullets but enough. I see no reason why one cannot shoot lead bullets, hard cast and gas checked in the .50 B. Between lead and the Barnes bullets, that is all I plan on shooting in mine.
The .458 SOCOM is fantastic and avoids some of the shortcomings of the .50 B, such as a straight case headspacing on the mouth, a lot more bullets available, and no magazine mods, but I see no reason you cannot have both the .458 S and the .50 B. I just happen to be starting with the .50 B first and plan on adding the .458 S later. Why, because I have a barrel full of .458 caliber guns, but only two .50 cal guns, and both of them are .512. Be honest, for most of us the .50 B is just another extravagant toy, I know it is for me. Practicality means nothing.

[ 04-02-2003, 05:35: Message edited by: Big Bore ]

There is also 9.3x64 semiauto rifle made by IZHMASH in Russia

http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/tigr.shtml

Jiri

And there is a 8x68 self-loader from Klimovsk, too (presented this IWA).

Carcano

I've got a pretty neat 12.7X99 autoloader...

Funny, this Beowolf concept is essentially Jeff Cooper's "Thumper" rifle. I think he described it in To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth. Basically a .45-70 chambered in a military-style gun. Downside is poor armor penetration, but upside is "decisive" hits.

Pertinax

Here's the magazine capacity numbers for you guys.

20's hold 7ea
30's hold 10....some will hold 11 barely.
40's hold 15 rounds of 50Beowulf/.458 SOCOM

I have also built a .475 Tremor which splits the difference between the two. Now that the .480 Ruger is out, there are a few more .475 bullets to choose from these days.

Tony Rumore
Tromix Corp

Where did you get the mag cap info. From the factory, they supply a 20 round 223 mag that has been blocked to only hold 10 round, and it holds 7 of the .50 B rounds. So by adding 10 more rounds of 223 you gain nothing in the 50 B? That doesn't sound right. Because the .50 B mag from the factory can be made to hold .223 ammo, they must block the new mag so that it cannot hold more than 10 rounds. Here is the quote from their web site: "50 Beowulf comes with its own uniquely designed single stack, seven round mag which incorporates special features to limit .223 use to 10 rounds. .50 Beowulf can also be used in some other manufactures standard .223 mags."
It just does not stand to reason, at least to me anyway, that an unblocked 20 round mag does not hold more .50 B than a 20 round mag that has been blocked to hold 10 rounds of .223. Can you explain how you came up with these capacities please, as I must be missing something. Thanks.

[ 04-07-2003, 03:19: Message edited by: Big Bore ]

Big Bore,
Tony is the guy that builds the .458 SOCOM, Tony from Tromix. .50B and .458SOCOM are the same dia.,so the mags will hold the same amount.

You wrote:

Here is the quote from their web site: "50 Beowulf comes with its own uniquely designed single stack, seven round mag which incorporates special features to limit .223 use to 10 rounds. .50 Beowulf can also be used in some other manufactures standard .223 mags."

I read that as it will hold 7rds of 50 or 458 like any other 20rd mag and still will only allow you to load 10rds of .223 so it wiil comply with the Crime Bill.

Tony's the man, and as soon as I get the bucks together, I'm buying a .458Socom upper.

You guys should live close enough to vist Tony's shop and go shooting with him......it is a BLAST literally!!!