Anybody tried the Italian-made Centurion "Multi-Defense Buckshot" 12 gauge 2 3/4" load? It's the ancient musket "buck and ball" combination, in this case a .650" ball with 6 pellets of #1 buckshot on top, loaded to 1300 FPS.

I just came upon this thread.

I'm doing a "reverse engineering" project with the Centurian "buck & ball".

The .650" (391.3 gr.) ball actually rides on top of the six #1 buck pellets (each pellet weighing in at 40.23 gr.). Total payload is a bit under 1 1/2 oz.

I'm planning on posting shooting results to this thread in the near future after conducting some controlled tests.

My comments on loading data (and photos of this cartridge will be in the "shotgun reloading" forum.

Please post here so we can check over there.

I should have compiled my data before posting .... but since I didn't, I'll post data as it comes.

payload in wad(s)

Thanks! I'm interested in hearing your results.

I got a chance to test fire some of the Centurian Multi-Defense buck & ball loads.

Results were mixed.

Recoil is about like the recoil of the older style Foster type slugs. Not as brutal as the 1 1/4 oz. Brenneke short mag slugs....but they let you know they pack some lead!

Velocity from my 21" improved cylinder rifle sighted barrel averaged 1,220 fps with these loads. Advertised muzzle velocity is 1,300 fps. So I think Centurion endulged in a bit of hype here because that's QUITE a difference!

But extreme velocity spread of the 10 rounds I chronographed was a mere 8 fps (high/1224 low/1216). Super uniform as velocity goes!

However the patterning was not quite as "uniform".

Spreads varied greatly at 25 yards (from 5" to 15") and not evenly distributed (as shown in these photos).





I was able to easily keep the large ball on the IPSC silhouette out to 50 yards.... but beyond that it was very sketchy (about a 50/50 hit to miss rate at 75 yds.)

The patterns tended to be very erratic with a tendancy for one or two of the #1 Buck pellets to end up clumping in almost the same hole as made by the .65" ball. Makes me wonder if they actually swage to the big ball under pressure.

I was hoping this buck and ball load would provide some magic "do-it-all" compromise between buck and slug loads. But that didn't happen.

Not too good...

Thanks for the followup!

1300 fps is likely out of a 26" or 28" standard barrel. A choke might increase velocity. We're talking 80 fps, which is minimal.

Most velocities I see on boxes are fudged toward the high side.

I forget my "group" data -- 30" circle at 25 yds. I think. 70% inside the circle. I think it's something like that. This pattern does that.

I want more shot.

At close range, 7 yds. -- which is nominal defense shooting distance -- #1 Buck is going to put a full load through a hole a bit larger than your fist.

I like #1 Buck. More pellets, tends not to blow holes in the neighbor's walls if touched off in a densely populated area.

The only commonly available buckshot most places nowadays is OO. Remington's 3" OO puts 15 pellets in patterns I can cover with my spread hand at 7 yards from a 20" cylinder bore. Nominal MV is 1225 FPS, but I don't think I'll try it over my Chrony. Anything within a couple hundred FPS of that ought to be OK. It does kick, but my daughter gets a "kick" out of blasting milk jugs with it. Makes a big, bright muzzle flash.

If you're looking for a good load for home defense I'd strongly advise looking elsewhere.Any heavy load like that will blow right through walls possibly taking out a family member on the other side and certainly causing substantial structural damage to the home.The idea is to take out the intruder and minimize home damage.I keep light (2 3/4" lead 9 shot) target loads handy for home defense.

Birdshot loads can produce devastating damage at very close range. They can also fail spectacularly.

Centurion also makes a 2", 1250 fps, 00 (6 balls),defense loads for increasing the capacity of your pump shotgun.

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
Centurion also makes a 2", 1250 fps, 00 (6 balls),defense loads for increasing the capacity of your pump shotgun.

Centurion also makes a 2" shotshell loaded with 12 x #1 Buck (1250fps). I like these!



On my 870 with mag extension, I can load 9 of these little guys up the mag tube (vs. 7 X 2 3/4" shells).

But make sure your shotgun cycles with these before using them for anything serious. I had to modify the shell lifter/carrier on my Rem. 870 so it would feed these without a hitch.

Also - inspect each shell that you plan to use for serious situations. I've found shells loaded with only 11 pellets and shells that have had pellets sheared in half during the loading process. They have see-through over shot wads so this is easy to do.

PS - Sorry for the misspelling of "Centurion" in the photo above.

DaMan
What do you think the pattern would be at 100 yards. More to the point if the ball were to miss up close how large a field of fire would you estimate there would be 100 yards beyond the intended target? I'd hate to be in the entry team coming in the back.

Perry

A shotgun should be viewed as part of the battery that makes up your defensive arsenal. This battery begins with anything from a knife,baton, pepper spray on up to an assault rifle. For home defence where ranges tend to be short, a 12ga shotgun loaded with buckshot has no equal.(unless a bigger bore loaded the same way)At 10m a 35gram load of birdshot is going to be very effective and maybe preferable to buckshot where over penetration is a concern. I firmly believe that under 25m a 12ga load of buckshot will put down any assailant under the influence of drugs or not. If you feel that distances on your property may extend beyond the 25m mark then load the gun with slugs. If that wont do it then phone the cops!!!(only AFTER using minimum force,even if minimum is a 20ga loaded with buckshot!!

I have no particular quarrel with your observations and even agree with them -and about the 12 ga. - I would only add the caution that it depends on what member of the household is firing the shotgun. Since I'm sure you would agree that "recoil time" can be a significant factor in self defense shooting - I would prefer that smaller frame women handle a 20 ga. Within a house, I don't think that a bad guy will notice the difference when the # 2s-4s hit him from a 20 ga.( really favor #4s inside a house) -and the 20 does have the advantage of being easily handled by boys and girls alike as young as 10. Just my thoughts -and what an awful world it is that we are even discussing such a topic.

quote:

Originally posted by Bernie P.:
If you're looking for a good load for home defense I'd strongly advise looking elsewhere.Any heavy load like that will blow right through walls possibly taking out a family member on the other side and certainly causing substantial structural damage to the home.The idea is to take out the intruder and minimize home damage.I keep light (2 3/4" lead 9 shot) target loads handy for home defense.

Maybe in YOUR neighborhood! In my house I don't even screw with the 12 ga but go straight to my double 10ga. 54 pellets of #4 Buck or 19 pellets of OO. As I have no neighbors for 1/2 mile -- I don't care if I have to put on a new door or new wall. Home invadors will be shot through walls, doors, whatever-- there is no place to hide, leave now!

I love that double-trigger 10 ga. double! What make is it?

The prison in Boise uses #4 Buck loads in their 12 gauge wall guns.

Rich

Part of me leans to what Bernie P is saying (a fire fight inside a home and what if there are sleeping children on the other side of the wall?) Another part of me says that in a fire fight, the first order of business is to get rid of the shooter in front of you. Tough call and I guess it all depends on how one reacts in that moment and in those circumstances. I do think that "recoil reaction time" is an important factor (as it is in using any firearm - I never was impressed with Clint Eastwood's 44 Magnum -but that's another story) It seems to me that a 20 ga. for lighter members of the family should be just fine. If milliseconds might count then the ability to fire rapid shots might count. (Awful situation, hopefully not to be confronted and that this is a purely hypothetical discussion)

...take a knee and shoot up...depending upon what is up of course (two story house/loft)

Right. You ALWAYS must be aware of who might be in your line of fire.

quote:

Originally posted by Ricochet:
I love that double-trigger 10 ga. double! What make is it?

Its marked Elibar, made in Spain. It came in a 36 inch full choke barrel. I bought it second hand and modified it.

Cool!