I've always wanted a nice side by side for hunting pheasant and grouse over dogs. I can't stand barrel selectors, so the gun must have two triggers. I don't need high end wood or fancy engraving. I just want solid field gun that my grandkids will want to hunt with after I move on.

Problem is I don't really know much about doubles. I've just always loved the idea of hunting with a double.

For a budget of $5000, what is a solid, no-frills double? I've looked at new guns like Merkel, AyA, Ugartechea as well as used Foxes, LC Smiths and others.

Is there any advantage to paying more for a new gun I can have fitted to me?

I don't mind spending the whole budget on a quality gun, but can I get what I'm looking for and still have some of that budget left over for shells and some clays?

Any help is appreciated.

I shoot a CZ Bobwhite with an English stock that I love. It cost me under $500. I would check with Kebco to see what VC has to offer in your price range. Also look in the Double Gun Journal for guns.

Any gun can be fitted to you as long as the stock is retained by OTHER than a through bolt from the rear of the action to a "nut in the butt" that is usually hidden under a buttplate.

So a s/b/s built with a bolt on butt as does bolt on the butt of a Remington 870 could not be fitted IF THE STOCK REQUIRED BENDING UP OR DOWN OR LEFT OR RIGHT.

Also it is easier to bend a stock down than it is to bend it up. And, of course easier to take off wood to shorten than to add on wood to lengthen.

In fact if I have a stock lengthened I prefer a red rubber Silvers pad (midway.usa list them) as they are cheaper to fit and because there is no attempt to try to "mask" the fact the stock is extended just look right.

Any AYA is built on traditional "English" lines so will be able to be fitted to you.

But FIRST I would have a fitting done as if you are lucky you may find a gun that already has, from the factory, the stck dimensions that you require or close to.

Buy new or near new Spanish rather than be tempted by a worn out English named gun offloaded onto unsuspecting Americans in USA because it just isn't fit to be sold in the UK!

I joke not! Some quality English guns in the USA no doubt but also a lot of "junkers" that are either now very thin in barrel wall thickness of generally worn out.

You cannot really go wrong with a good used AYA as long as the action is tight and the barrels have no dents.

A 5K budget will not get you a bespoke gun but will still give you ample funds for a very nice double.

Unless you are familiar with older guns & what to look for (or really trust your dealer) I would steer you away from pre war guns. Older guns are not made to take the current crop of over the counter shotshells that run at a higher pressure. I regularly use short chambered guns but the shells need to be the correct length & loaded to the correct pressure.

The Silvers pad was mentioned, I like the looks but the weight can be a concern. You want the gun balanced so be careful hanging a heavy pad on the end. For changing LOP measurements I have used the Cervellati brand micro cell pads. Even the 1.25" thick pad will weigh less than 3 oz.

Also, do not forget to take a hard look at some of German, Italian, and even Japanese guns.
The German GDR guns are built like a tank and often can be a real bargain. Not all AyA's were built to the same standard for the US market (I assume you are in the US), some are OK and some are problem children & built to a price point.

Good idea to be measured for a stock if you can find someone local.

I do not own a s/s anymore as I prefer Beretta O/U's but if I were to buy a S/S now it would be an AYA without a doubt. I prefer 1oz or 1\8oz loads in a light gun.

My main grouse pheasant SXS is a Browning BSS 20ga 26in.

I shoot 1os7.5s for grouse and 1@1/8oz of 6s for pheasants.

Scan your local gun auctions for a used Winchester Model 21 in 20gauge and don't look back. I had a Ruger Gold Label in 12gauge and was impressed. It is no longer made and the price is in the $3,300 range.

quote:

Originally posted by mlfguns:
Scan your local gun auctions for a used Winchester Model 21 in 20gauge and don't look back. I had a Ruger Gold Label in 12gauge and was impressed. It is no longer made and the price is in the $3,300 range.

I think the OP will have a hard time finding a 20ga, double trigger Model 21 that is not butchered for a $5K budget unless it is one of the early boat paddle extractor guns (and I think they were all 12ga).

Try these folks:

http://www.superpages.com/bp/W...Guns-L0110189088.htm

http://ts1.mm.bing.net
/th?&id=...c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

They have the largest selection of SxS's I've ever seen.

Thank you all for the suggestions. I'm going to go get measured and then handle a Merkel. Hopefully life will be easy and I'll like how it feels.

A plain Jane Merkel is a fine gun. 2 3/4 chambers with or without ejectors. You can find good used ones for $800 to $2000 depending on condition and whether it has extractors or ejectors. I recently picked up both 20 and 12 ga with ejectors for about $1500 each and I love them.

Rather than give you another brand opinion, I'll just say GET ONE THAT FITS! You can spend lots of $$$$ on a SxS, and if it doesn't fit, you will not enjoy it. And with your budget, there are a lot of very nice shotguns available.

Start at the top, you never need to worry about looking bad, or thinking about upgrades/

THE answer: a Winchester Model 21 12 gauge with 3" chambering.

Rich

Ken (Kebco), what do you think of V Bernardelli shotguns?

Suggest you check the American made RBL by CSMC. If you live in the Northeast it would probably be worth the drive to their Connecticut location to look at, and handle a range of guns with features that interest you. You'll see a lot of Model 21 influence, and the basic model prices should be well within your budget...

Good hunting,

Check out the link below. NECG is a first rate dealer. They can do any gunsmithing you need and they stand behind what they sell.

These AyA Special Edition guns are priced very reasonably,handle well, and are quite attractive..

https://www.newenglandcustomgun.com

Big budget or not, $4k for a boxlock seems pretty steep.

Winchester 21s are sturdy and reliable but they weigh a ton and only a very few had double triggers. For $5K you can have a very nice Merkel boxlock 20 or sidelock 12, an RBL or two used Spanish sidelocks. I would recommend that you contact Galazan's and see about ordering a basic grade RBL in your favorite gauge. I suggest 28 inch barrels, double triggers, splinter fore end and a straight grip. You can easily get a 6 lb 20GA or a 6.75 pound 12 gauge. Some RBLs push 8 pounds, so insist on a light weight gun. I have a 20GA RBL that weighs 6 lbs and a 12GA RBL on a 16GA frame that weighs 6-10. You should be able to get the correct length of pull but plan on sending the gun out to have the stock bent for cast on or off. If you insist, they will sell you an action with French Gray finish and then you won't have to worry about wearing off the casehardening. For $5K you should be able to upgrade wood and perhaps get a self opener.

You could try a Parker Repro SxS with double triggers. If you look around they can be had for $5k.
I shoot a 20 and a 12 and love them. Of course I grew up shooting a Parker 20 since a teenager.
They look nice with a pheasant too:
Original:


:

35Whelanman,

I too favor .35 cal rifles for hunting and side by side's with double triggers for shotguns!

First find what shells and shot are legal for your area and get a gun that handles them.

Go to the gunshops in your area and handle the shotguns that interest you.

I shot the most pheasants with my 16 ga drilling but here in CT I can't carry a rifle everywhere so I got a 20 ga Bernadelli that's really sweet. Then I lucked into an Ugarthechea 20 ga as well. I am in high clover SXS wise and they hit really well.

With this internet you can shop right now on nets classifieds and auctions.

Here are my 20ga SxS shotguns.



The Bernadelli is on the left. The Ugartechea is my new favorite. I got it recently for only $400. You don't need to spend $5000! You can get a drilling, shotguns and have money left over for that much.

A good fit is the key to good shooting. Seek out a qualified professional gun fitter and have your gun made to your dimensions, you will be thankful you did. Entry-level guns in this price range will all be of similar quality so just buy what you like.

Kebco gave good advice...he knows the Euro market. Be patient and look for a nice Continental gun...post war German or Belgian. I bought this 16 ga Simson for under 1K ... made in 1951 and has excellent workmanship.

I guess that Kebco guy is smarter than he looks :-)

I too have a post-war 16Ga Simson. It's from 1954. It's solid, will last forever and is hell on pheasants. It will be around long after I'm gone, and I'm not planning to leave any time soon.

Just saw this thread. I have to agree with Emory. Take a close look at CSMC shotguns. I have an RBL whatever in 20ga. Fitted case and everything. Beautiful gun! I have shot skeet with it.
Peter.

Budget under $5K, I like Parker repros. Also used, better quality Spanish sidelocks. Occasionally you can find high quality used Italian doubles under $5K too.

Unless you're ready to spend an arm and a leg, the Spanish AYA's give value for money.

I would strongly second what MtWoodson said. Get one that fits.
I have had two Merkels (great shotguns), three Browning BSS's (12 and 20 pistol grip and 20 straight grip). SKB 200 (20). Sauer 16. GECO 16.
As you can see I like shotguns
But...it seems that I almost always grab the GECO 16. It's my least expensive shotgun, plain wood, case coloring worn off. It has had the chamber and forcing cones lengthened and choked IC/IC. Why, it feels like an extension of my body and points where I look. Pheasants, grouse. 1 oz loads at about 1200fps or less. Don't take long shots.
Fit is the most important. Then decide if it meets you quality/ambiance standards

How about Ivo and Tulio Fabbri

I have owned and hunted quail with almost all the common SxS shotguns and found I could not hit with them for squat. Lest you think they were lesser guns they were - Model 21's both original and the new one,Fox Model B,Browning, Parker,Ithaca,AyA, and probably some others. I do fine with O/U's or pumps, just cannot shoot a side by side.

quote:

I have owned and hunted quail with almost all the common SxS shotguns and found I could not hit with them for squat

Sounds like a personal problem I have always said real shotguns have two barrels the best are SXS

I shoot equal well with pumps semis OU or sxs

I picked up a CZ Bobwhite in 20 gauge. Have not shot it much, but so far, so good.

p dog shooter - I have always thought that any problem a person had was a personal problem. So what else is new. I still can't hit squat with a SxS.

Zimbabwe: That is fairly common as the look and feel of a SxS is quite different and some people have difficulty adapting to it. I always tell people to try a friend's SxS or buy a less expensive option before throwing down large coin. A friend of mine bought a nice M21 and after struggling with it in the field and range for the past few years, he sold it last week. He is deadly with an OU.

Fitting seems to have much more affect on the shooter with a SxS than with single plane options. My Dad has some older field grade Parkers and they feel as lively as a cedar fence post when I compare them to my English SxS shotguns that were fitted to me.

Larry

I agree with zim. If you can't shoot a SxS with the same accuracy as a single barrel then IMHO you are obviously looking at the barrel, hence your sight picture is completely different. Note that this is shotgun shooting at a moving target, not bullseye pistol or rifle shooting. I am not saying that one method is better than another, just that they are different. If you are conscious of the barrel then you are not focused on the bird!
Field guns tend to have a shorter LOP than "target" shotguns, and hence may feel different.
Peter.

If your budget was smaller I would go for a miroku sxs. As it stands the Aya's sold new by necg are beautiful.

And NECG has a special running at $3,995 for the base Aya. What I love about those guns a is how slender the wrist is. So classic.

My situation was a bit different than yours, in that I wanted a gun predominantly for waterfowling, so I wanted interchangeable chokes and 3" chambers, and had to have a steel rated gun. The CZ is a good deal for the cheap end of the spectrum, I have a 20ga Ringneck, it is an SST, they make a DT version as well. Then up towards the mid range, FAIR and the Webley are OK, but they are SST, FAIR has the Iside, Webley is a Turkish rebrand, Franchi has one out, haven't seen one yet. As far as I could tell, Merkel and Chapuis don't offer the chokes, and neither did the Spanish guns.
Fabarm has a gun, the Classis, that has SST, but, has everything else, it may be avail with DT, but, haven't seen one with them yet. Then the next step was the RBL and the Beretta 471 or 486.
I ended up getting two of the Classis in 3" 12ga, a boxlock w/30" and a sideplated boxlock w/28" barrels. Their gr 4 sideplated version is around the same price as a Merkel or Chapuis base boxlock, a bit less than the 486. The boxlock is about the same price as an Iside or Webley.
I looked at a lot of nice stuff on the web, if you don't want the Steel rating and interchangeable chokes, you can find some nice guns out there in the 3-5 range, with DT's, 3" chambers in 12 or 20 can be had, but are harder to come by.
That was what I saw at least. For a lead only gun, I probably would look at Fausti or Ugartachea as they had nice guns for a reasonable price.

.

An interesting post - esp for me as a shotgun Enthusiast.

I was surprised to see so many recommendations for East European guns and even German shotguns coming thru. Personally I am not a great fan of either simply because I lean towards British shotguns in side by side.

If I was looking at a budget of USD 5k as stated, I would likely look for a solid working British box lock in 12 or 20 bore (the latter will cost more). Many names spring to mind from Webley thru to Grant and more. If I was looking new, I would certainly consider AYA as a great working gun that will hold its value and tick all the boxes.

Enjoy thinking about it and great to hear what you end up choosing.

Cheers

Charlie
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Merkel.