I am a fan of the 16 gauge, and use a 16 for all of my upland hunting, but the commonly seen statements that "a 16 gauge feels like a 20 gauge but kills like a 12 gauge", etc. are nonsense, and just spread lots of misinformation. The value of one gauge over another is the ability of one gauge to effectively handle loads that cannot be handled well by others, and that's really about it. So, for example: if you need 1.5 oz of #1 steel shot for geese, then you need a 12 or 10 gauge. A 20 or a 16 will simply not do in such a case. Other examples can apply equally well for other gauge and load combinations. Of course, a load of #2 shot with 3.5 dram equivalent of powder will have more "killing power" than 1 oz of #6 at 2.25 of powder, but that has NOTHING to do with gauge. And yes it is true that a 16 'can' feel like a 20, but that's ONLY if the 16 gauge barrel(s) are built on a gauge-proportionate frame. A 16 gauge barrel(s) on a 12 gauge frame feels like a 12 gauge, and is one of the reasons why many people over the years have failed to see the point of the 16 gauge (in other words, if I'm going to have to carry a 12, then it may as well actually be a 12). The fact is that 20, 16, and 12 gauge guns, when shooting the exact same loads (for example 1 oz of #6 shot at 1250 fps) all hit EQUALLY hard, with the EXACT SAME amount of pellets, of the EXACT SAME size, and arrive at the target at (more or less) the EXACT SAME time. Same loads = same "killing power". The ONLY thing that will vary among these gauges in this example is the patterning, since the ONLY VARIABLE is the diameter of the tubes that the pellets are being shot through. Patterning is the real and only difference, and its where the 16 gauge shines for upland hunting. The 1 oz load that's so much favored for birds is, in fact, "perfect" for the 16 gauge, and the 16 gauge is "perfect" for it, because since 16 ounces make up one pound, and because the gauge of a shotgun represents the number of balls of a given gauge that make up one pound, that means that a 1 oz 'ball' of pellets is about as 'wide' and as 'deep' as a 16 gauge tube. Put another way, it's the "perfect" "square" load (equally wide and deep). Shotgun ballistics dictates that such a "square" load delivers optimum patterns, and therefore by definition also means that the 16 gauge, when shooting a typical 1 oz upland bird hunting load will deliver the optimum shaped pellet cluster at the point of impact. THAT fact, combined with the fantastic lightweight feel of a properly built 16 (especially in a properly built double) is the reason why the 16 gauge is so great. It has NOTHING to do with "killing power". That's just misinformation. Again, a 20 a 16 and a 12, when shooting the same load all kill with exactly the same power. The 16 simply does a better job of putting the load of pellets in the best position to kill. For an upland load, the 16 does that job better than a 20 gauge and better than a 12 gauge too. It's ALL about the shape of the pattern.

Muggles:

I read your post with considerable interest for two reasons - 1) I'm an old White Plains and (next door) Brewster boy so it's nice to hear from someone in my old neck of the woods! 2) I don't argue with your figures and it's true that a lot of 16s in my youth (I'm 76) were usually doubles built much like a 12 but I can say from personal experience of comparison that the 16 was nonetheless about a pound lighter - no mean consideration when hunting for ruffed grouse where a lot of walking was involved - to say nothing of the snap shot needed very very often on ruffed grouse! Also from personal experience I often saw "doughnut" patterns with a 12 and yes while using field loads. A 16 rarely showed that kind of a pattern. I hasten to say that my experiments were rather unscientific and consisted of hanging an old bed sheet on a tree limb and firing at differing ranges from 15 to 25 yards (changing sheets, of course) Ammo was readily available and the 20 was a rarity. (I'm speaking of 55-60 years ago) The 16s I carried killed ruffed grouse very handily. I have no scientific reasons why I loved the 16 beyond that. (Yes, I have used a 12 on ruffs with equal success - meaning I was lucky to kill 5-6 birds for a box of shells, but that's neither here nor there!)

quote:

Originally posted by Muggles:
I am a fan of the 16 gauge, and use a 16 for all of my upland hunting, but the commonly seen statements that "a 16 gauge feels like a 20 gauge but kills like a 12 gauge", etc. are nonsense, and just spread lots of misinformation.

It was more true than not, if you take a look back at the development of the shotshell.

The comparison came from a time when 2-3/4 in. shells were the standard, and three (and three and a half inch) loads did not exist.

A lot has changed, particularly powder, hull, and wad development. At one time, 1-1/8 oz. was the std. 12 ga. load-- if you wanted more payload, the 10 ga. was king.

Powders are better, burning far more progressively than the earlier days. The std. 1-1-1/8 oz. 12 ga. load became 1-1/4 oz., and now 1-3/8 oz. (and 1-1/2 oz. Baby Magnums) are standard fare.

Technically, the 16 ga. is as inferior to the 12 ga. as it is superior to the 20 gauge. But, things have changed. The 3 in. 20 ga. killed off the 16 ga., once the 2nd most popular gauge by a large margin, and the 3-1/2 12 ga. has obsoleted the 10 gauge.

A 12 ga. does indeed pattern better than a 16 or a 20 ga., that has been proven. But, not that much better.

What we are left with is the romance of the 16 ga., a gauge that is more than sufficient for flushing game, and does particularly nice things slimming up SxS doubles and so forth.

It makes the A-5 a fabulous carry gun; the best example I can think of.

Shotguns, like my varmint rifles, should be used to fit the game you are after. I am a big 16ga fan. It fills a niche between the 12 and 20 for me. Plus it was the 1st gun that my Dad gave me. An old thumper Remington Mod 11. I kind of like the purple Federal hulls too!!

I am strictly an upland hunter and use all 3 gauges. I kill just as many birds with a 20 as I do with anything. When it comes to pheasant sized birds I prefer a 16. If I hunted water fowl I would certainly use a 12. I just prefer the lighter guns especially my Citori White Lightning 16ga with 26" tubes. She is sweet and fast. But, I do plan on getting a Benelli M2 20ga with 24" barrel for pheasant in the near future. It ought to be a great gun for long days in the field.

I think that Tx6BR put it well. The right gun for the right use. I disagree with Randy's contention that "Technically" the 12 gauge is "superior" to the 16 gauge. I think that is a very subjective issue, the answer to which depends greatly upon which particular load and usage that one is considering. Superior when shooting clays with #8 shot, sure. Superior in a blind shooting #1 shot at geese, sure. Superior when carried all morning in the field shooting birds with 7/8 oz of #6 shot, absolutely not. I also disagree with the notion that the 3" 20 gauge chamber and shell, in and of itself, "killed off" the 16 gauge. I think the fall in popularity of the 16 resulted more from the refusal of gun makers several decades ago to build 16 gauges on gauge-proportionate frames. Building 16's on 12 gauge bodies, as so many manufacturers did as a means of reducing their costs, made the 20 gauge an obviously more appealing gun. I do, nevertheless, understand and agree with Randy's point that the 3" 20 gauge arose to fill the void left by absence of the 16 gauge. It gave us a lighter option to the 12 that could be carried comfortably and do a respectable job with the majority of the upland field loads. Just look, though, at the re-emergence of the 16 gauge as the prototypical side-by-side double gun for upland birds, and also at the increasing availability of great cartridges from suppliers like Fiocchi, Polywad, Eley, RST, Remington and others, and you can see that the appeal and the fitness for purpose of the 16 gauge is being rapidly rediscovered. I don't think that there's any romance associated with the 16, just a lot of logic.

I don't mind if you disagree-- have at it.

The basis is simple: shot deforms shot. The shorter the shot column, the less shot deformation. For a given payload, the large the gauge-- the less shot deformation. A 1 oz. load gets better as bore size increases: 28 - 20 - 16 - 12.

Guns and gauges get discontinued for just one reason-- sales and profits. As much as folks like to lament the end of the A-5, the Model 12, etc., etc.,-- they are gone because it became a losing proposition to manufacture them.

Beretta never could be bothered to put out a 16 ga. semi-auto (or much of 16 ga. anything) strictly due to lack of demand. We get what we are willing to pay for.

I like choices, and I wish there were more. Not to the extent of rifles, "when all else fails invent a caliber" ... but more choices nevertheless.

Muggles:

As Randy Wakeman said - he didn't mind if you disagreed with him and that alone entitles his statements to serious consideration. You may not know this but Randy Wakeman is a professional who earns his living from shotguns and I, for one, hesitate to question his statements about the history of 16 gauges. He is absolutely right (although he hardly needs my endorsement) when he says that it was the 3" shell that spelled the doom of the 16 (as the 3 1/2" did for the 10 gauge) Another factor (in my opinion) was the rise in the post WW2 era of pumps and autos. Why? Esthetically speaking, a 20 gauge double (O&Us were rare in this country then) had a "snipey" or rather "thin" look to the barrels. A 20 ga. DB looked rather "dainty" or even like a child's toy. Sorry to offend anyone who carried a 20 DB in those days! The rise of the pumps and any single barrel shotgun ended that. Like I said - just my opinion!

quote:

The basis is simple: shot deforms shot. The shorter the shot column, the less shot deformation. For a given payload, the large the gauge-- the less shot deformation. A 1 oz. load gets better as bore size increases: 28 - 20 - 16 - 12.

Randy, based on your comment I think that you make my point for me, and that we don't disagree much at all. Because the larger gauge barrel deforms shot less, the 16 patterns better than the 20 and is therefore preferable to the 20 gauge. Since the 16 gauge (again, when properly built onto a 16 gauge frame) carries far better in the field than the 12 gauge (in terms of weight and nimbleness) it is therefore preferable to the 12 gauge. Does that resolve it, then...the 16 gauge is preferable to both the 20 and the 12?

Sixteen Gauge Banter

Let's just say that the 16 ga. has potential that is, as of the moment, largely untapped. I'd like to see a renewed, more serious effort at getting more out of that grand old gauge-- but, competent modern 16 ga. offerings made with today's best metallurgy are just not out there at the present.

Someday?

quote:

Sixteen competent modern 16 ga. offerings made with today's best metallurgy are just not out there at the present.

What about the great modern examples from Grulla Armas, Arrieta, Ugartechea and AyA?

There is nothing wrong with the Spanish doubles you mentioned, but they aren't particularly mainstream or modern. The SxS is the least popular fixed breech gun that there is in the US, rightly or wrongly.

Mainstream and modern would include Beretta O/U's and gas guns, Browning gas guns, the Benelli blowbacks, and the like.

Mainstream and modern would also include an upgrade to 3 inch chambers to increase the versatility of the gauge. A 16 ga. gas gun that handled 7/8 oz. to 1-1/2 oz. payloads would be a relatively easy approach. If it made sense for the 20, it makes more sense for a 16.

I've got a 16 ga Win Mod 21 that is a fairly nice handling shotgun, since the 16 ga 21s were built on 20 frames, but it is still heavy compared to some of the wands made in Europe.

For ordinary field work, the 16 is fine, but as Randy Wakeman said above, the current state of the industry doesn't support a real 16 revival.

Your original statement that 16s carry better than 12s all day in the field is certainly true when you're speaking of mainstream guns, but there are many S/S and O/U Euro 12s that weigh in the 6 to 7 pound range and a few under 6. I sure wouldn't enjoy shooting heavy loads in them, but for carrying with lighter upland type loads they do all that a 16 does.

If you like the 16, more power to you, but all things considered, reloading, ammo selection, factory gun selection, etc there is a reason it nearly died off. That reason is the market, people quit buying them, so the manufacturers quit catering to the very small market segment left that still wanted them. I'd daresay the ratio of available everything (ammo, reloading components, guns, etc) for a 20 or 12 is at least 50 to one, and probably higher, compared to the 16 ga.

BTW, the "death" of the 10 is somewhat exaggerated as well.

My stance has always been, after shooting hundreds of thousands of rounds of shotgun ammo, and watching others shoot a few thousand at game birds as well, that if you REALLY want to be a conservationist, the 12 is the gun of choice (except for the rare waterfowling situations where a 10 is better). It kills more and better for most people than any other while wounding and losing less birds, all things being equal. The equal part is, I know a couple of people that, if it were legal, could easily outshoot a beginner with a shotgun with a .22 rifle. Therefore, I certainly acknowledge that in the hands of a expert shooter, almost any gun is deadly within it's range limitations. But there aren't as many expert shooters around as bar room claims would lead you to believe.

The follow up to "use a 12 is you want the maximum kill" is if you are out for enjoyment, know its limitations, "use a 28 for fun."

But I'm a firm believer in "whatever floats your boat" as long as it doesn't harm anyone, so I wish you the best with the 16.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
My stance has always been, after shooting hundreds of thousands of rounds of shotgun ammo, and watching others shoot a few thousand at game birds as well, that if you REALLY want to be a conservationist, the 12 is the gun of choice (except for the rare waterfowling situations where a 10 is better). It kills more and better for most people than any other while wounding and losing less birds, all things being equal.

I couldn't possibly disagree more. No gauge determines "lethality"-- it is the pattern placed on the bird, nothing else.

Things are never "equal"-- if they were, terminal performance would also be equal.

A shot cloud doesn't know the barrel that produced it. 16 ga. and 20 ga. guns can, and do significantly outperform 12 ga. shotguns with regularity. The pattern board proves it.

The "why" is simple-- the majority of shells fired in this country are cheap promo loads out of 12 gauges, and they account for the vast majority of lost game as well as just lack of practice to go with lack of patterning work.

quote:

Originally posted by RandyWakeman:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
My stance has always been, after shooting hundreds of thousands of rounds of shotgun ammo, and watching others shoot a few thousand at game birds as well, that if you REALLY want to be a conservationist, the 12 is the gun of choice (except for the rare waterfowling situations where a 10 is better). It kills more and better for most people than any other while wounding and losing less birds, all things being equal.

I couldn't possibly disagree more. No gauge determines "lethality"-- it is the pattern placed on the bird, nothing else.

Things are never "equal"-- if they were, terminal performance would also be equal.

A shot cloud doesn't know the barrel that produced it. 16 ga. and 20 ga. guns can, and do significantly outperform 12 ga. shotguns with regularity. The pattern board proves it.

The "why" is simple-- the majority of shells fired in this country are cheap promo loads out of 12 gauges, and they account for the vast majority of lost game as well as just lack of practice to go with lack of patterning work.

No kidding, and a 12 gives a better pattern, usually with more shot in it, than a 16 or 20, using the same equivalent shot/loads/choke. Of course, there are always a few exceptions but we are dealing with large numbers, not a few specific oddities. You apparently can't remember what you wrote above, which is definitely true, contrary to your last post. To refresh your memory, I quote you:

quote:

"Technically, the 16 ga. is as inferior to the 12 ga. as it is superior to the 20 gauge. But, things have changed. The 3 in. 20 ga. killed off the 16 ga., once the 2nd most popular gauge by a large margin, and the 3-1/2 12 ga. has obsoleted the 10 gauge.

A 12 ga. does indeed pattern better than a 16 or a 20 ga., that has been proven. But, not that much better."

and....."The basis is simple: shot deforms shot. The shorter the shot column, the less shot deformation. For a given payload, the large the gauge-- the less shot deformation. A 1 oz. load gets better as bore size increases: 28 - 20 - 16 - 12."

End quoted text:

And, finally, you're not stating equal propostions. Shoot "promo" loads in a 12, vs. promo loads in a 16 or 20 and I'll take wads of your money on a pattern board betting on the 12. Why, as you say, just as you said earlier, since you seem to have forgotten, shot scrub is less in a 12 particularly with the soft lead shot found in promo loads. I say, again, after personally killing hundreds of thosands of birds, and watching others shoot many birds with all gauges, the 12 is a conservationists gun, especially in the hands of a less than expert shooter. Can a good shot kill a very high percentage of birds with almost any gun? Of course, but as you pointed out in your last sentence, combining lack of practice and shotgunning skill gives the edge to more shot, not smaller gauges and less shot IN THE SAME HANDS.

And, finally, the "lethality" of a pattern is simply a function of three things, the shot size, the shot velocity, and the shot pattern density at a given range which determines the number of pellets that hit the bird. I'd certainly like you to expand on how since "no gauge determines lethality", tell me how a 28 gauge is going to be just as lethal as a 12 gauge at 40 yards, or, for a more easily scored test, take a 20 ga with standard loads vs a 12 ga with standard loads on the 27 yard trapline and see which breaks more with the same person shooting both.

I need no pedantic memory jogging.



What gauge did the conservationists use?

There is no tangible difference between a 1-1/4 oz. 1200 fps load of #5 lead shot fired from a 20, 16, or 12 ga. that produces a 70% pattern at 40 yards. No difference in range, no difference in lethality, no difference period.

quote:

There is no tangible difference between a 1-1/4 oz. 1200 fps load of #5 lead shot fired from a 20, 16, or 12 ga. that produces a 70% pattern at 40 yards. No difference in range, no difference in lethality, no difference period.

Randy Wakeman:

I was interested to read that you found the 16 and 20 gauges to be performing better on the pattern board than many 12s. (I posted earlier that my own very unscientific experiments with a 12 and a 16 using a sheet hung from a tree limb had led me to the same conclusion about field loads. I had often seen "doughnut" patterns with a 12 - rarely with a 16) I know you mentioned that 12 gauge "promo" loads may have been to blame - but I can say from recollection going back almost 60 years or so (and yes, subject to error) that I did compare 12 gauge patterns - and we never had anything but "name" brand ammo in the house (no Sears Roebuck ammo). I offer as my very amateur opinion that the constriction of barrel diameters acted like a choke and so the 16 patterned more evenly at ranges to 25-30 yards. ( I still remember that the 12 seemed to throw a lot of shot to the edges of the pattern even when it was filling the center. (As I recall, all chokes were imp.Cyl and Mod. and using doubles) I wonder if that accounts for the often odd shot where a duck drops at 45 yards - and doesn't drop at 25 yards using 2 3/4" shells. Just an old man's musings. Would welcome any thoughts about it.

I would not say better than "many 12's" but often so close that nothing could live on the difference. Another reason is that 20 ga. loads are rarely loaded past 1175 fps, and that along tends to improve things vs. 1330 fps field loads.

It may be unsettling to some, but we are all using the "wrong" choke. Here's why:

Why Your Shotgun Throws the Wrong Pattern