At the risk of being considered a dreamer, I could use some suggestions.

Quite some time ago a small group of us shot skeet with sxs 12 gauge black powder shotguns.

I am the last man standing from that group.

Being well retired but still adventurous I am considering the purchase of a new modern sxs 12 gauge for use both at the skeet range and in the field.

While it is true you can easily spend five figures on such guns, surely plane but quality shotguns are available.

Could anyone suggest which manufacturers I should consider.

Thank you for any recommendations.

I'll take a brief stab at this because of the lack of responses so far. The requirement of skeet and field indicates screw-in chokes of varying sizes. The requirement of "new modern sxs 12 ga" doesn't leave much that's N.A. made in moderate price guns. Likewise I assume with U.K. guns. It also elminates all the older used guns in SxS like Brownings, Winchesters and Ithacas.

I think what you're left with are the new Italian, German and Spanish imports and there are many brands of these you can check out on the net - too many for a complete list here. There's Merkel, Bernardelli, Rizzini, Beretta, Caesar Guerini, Perazzi, Franchi and others. There may also be some Japanese imports although I don't know them. Spanish made guns include Arrizabalaga, Garbi, Grulla (marketed by Merkel I think), Arrieta, Ugartechea and AyA. Hopefully, I didn't include too many that don't make a SxS - that's why I didn't mention Benelli.

The determining factor will be the exact price range. You'll also of course need to decide on LOP, type of forearm, boxlock or sidelock, barrel length and straight or pistol grip stock. Some of the modern ones can be ordered with either type of grip. Personally, I go for the pistol grip.

Btw, there's also if you're interested a Savage SxS 12 ga w/ interchangeable chokes. I think it retails for around $800.

If you ever get a chance to shoot/own a Win. M21 skeet gun bored skeet1/skee2 try it. A friend of my father had one and it was amazing to say the least. I have never seen patterns that nice since.
My field grade 21 centers its patterns perfectly(M/F) and it is quite deadly on ducks with bismuth. I believe if folks would spend less time fooling with tubes and more time shooting they would have a lot more fun.
If you buy a good double it will only go up in value. There are lots of old Parkers, Foxs and Winchesters out there.
C.G.B.

I did not mean to imply the black powder sxs was my only experience with shotguns. My Browning BPS with various choke tubes was a great gun for hunting and fine for my level of skeet except one fact, I am too slow for best results. Thus it was passed on to my younger son.

Thanks you both for your suggestions. A systematic review of these recommendations will probably yield a suitable firearm.

Having made a few flintlock rifles from scratch (not kits) in the past, if the right barrels can be found, a new sxs smoke pole may be in my future, but not for now.

gray fox

i read your post thinking -"At last! I have met a shotgun shooter who doesn't think that all flying targets have to be shot at with a single barrel shotgun! Can I get you to try educating wing shooters that shotguns are not aimed but pointed and therefore the single barrel is not a requirement to shoot successfully? (the very future of a sxs may depend on your answer!)

AyA is a good quality spanish shotgun that is reasonably priced for what you get. Cabela's carries some of them here in the states, here's a link:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas...89&cm_re=gl*left*aya

If you are quite serious about black powder, check out Champlin Arms' Web site. Lots of older SxS, origunally proofed for black powder, many with drop-dead gorgeous Damascus barrels. WAY under five figures, in many cases.

ADDED (PHILOSOPHICAL)BONUS: those with receivers manufactured before 12/31/1898 are not "firearms."

Hi Gerrypeters:

My early experiences were with double barrel shotguns and never found an over and under that I was willing to have and use.

Mot to blow your impression of me it should be said there was a time I shot a replica Brown Bess at skeet clay targets with great success.

By the same token I would like the longest barrels available on any shotgun because it works for me. Same for rifles. This is not intended to stir up the old controversy about barrel length, long barrels just track better for me.

If restricted to just one shotgun it would be a side by side 12 gauge black powder shotgun.

gray fox:

This old man is happy that good thinking about barrel lengths is being passed down to another generation!

I used to shoot ruffed grouse in very thick areas with a 12 ga. with 28" barrels. I also shot ducks with a 12 of the same length. I always preferred a 24" barrel on any rifle because, in my experience, the 24" barrel grouped better at any distance - to say nothing of the fact that I also liked my 26" barrel on my 220 Swift when I was a teenager shooting at 'chucks'. Somehow, a 22" or 24" barrel on that 48 gr. Swift would have been really bad news! (As it was, I used to stuff gun cleaning swabs in my ears -this was before the jet engine ear protectors) Anyway, didn't the old Kentucky gunsmiths invent the "long rifle"? (never liked carbines -and, yeah, I'm including you Win.94 guys)

Greyfox, there were some Ithaca and Browning side-by-sides available in the early 80's that were decent quality and can still be found reasonably priced (certainly under $1500 and some models half that). These were made in Japan. I once had an Ithaca 200 that was a very nice.

You might also look for some of the better grade Savage/Stevens side-by-sides of the 70's. Some of their Fox SxS or models with single triggers and selective ejectors are very well made.

I really appreciate all of your suggestions and plan to browse the regional gun shows with these recommendations in mind.

Thank you.

gray fox, I'm taking literally your original question which I read as a desire to own a one gun outfit for both skeet and field. Having said that, I used to own one each of those '70s Browning and Ithaca guns. I still even have the '78 Ithaca catalog (it's where they announced their then new Mag 10). Neither gun had the screw-in choke systems necessary for skeet and field. I could go on to give you an in-depth critique of both (the Browning had a frame pin that required constant tightening and wasn't selective trigger and the Ithaca had too much recoil), but that's not necessary. The "botton line" is I wouldn't pick either for your purpose. Aside from that, the Browning SxS from that era has gone thru the roof on pricing. Mine new was $375 and they now go for $1K and more. Frankly, I don't understand that; these are not Belgium made Brownings.

I also have the Model 21 Winchester that cgbach mentioned. He's right. It's a GLORIOUS piece. I've used it for skeet and for quail at commercial shooting preserves. People I've met at those places are constantly wanting to handle and shoot it, which requests I used to go along with until I got tired of it. I've even heard a couple of wiseguys joke they'd like to steal it.

Without going into a whole lot of discussion, I wouldn't get that one either IF you plan to make it your one gun arsenal. Again, it's fixed chokes, but that's not the real reason. That gun is just plain too valuable a collector item to indulge in a LOT of shooting particularly if under rough conditions. And the prices on it are continuing to steeply escalate. With mine, I would like to take it out West pheasant hunting and that sort of thing, but am not willing to risk it to the airlines, or to storage in motel rooms while going out to eat etc. or to the type field conditions likely to be met. I reserve its field use for those shooting preserve quail hunts.

Of course there are the other old pre-war U.S. made classics like Fox, Parker and Smith. I have owned those too. And I don't recommend them for your purposes for several reasons, one of the biggest being that you can EASILY accidentally get stuck with one that looks great on the outside but is TOTALLY worn out internally or almost so. Remember, those guns were used in an era when the amounts of game and popularity of shooting and hunting were greater than today by mountains and miles.

I don't want this post to get too long, so just these final pieces of advice - buy or order a new gun and don't buy or order anything from just catalog photos only. Buy only what you've personally seen and examined and asked a competent gunsmith what all mechanical problems he's seen with it. Well, first ask if he's ever worked on that particular gun. Also, remember anything you buy eventually will need to be repaired and parts must be available. So inquire about that too.

At any rate, concerning those black powder guns there's a now elderly gunsmith here who used to run them in skeet with a SxS muzzleloader. It was fun to watch.

Shack you nailed it. I want to use sxs 12 gauge gun without paying a fortune that can be used for both skeet and trap. The parts problem is a valid point although I have been known to go the a machinist to make out of production metal parts for cameras, guns, and many more applications.

I go diverted with the black powder talk but yes one modern gun is now what is wanted.

Take a look at a CZ S/S. It will have screw in chokes and will not break the bank. It will not be the best gun for skeet shooting but then no S/S will be, but I suspect you are not dreaming of being a world beater with this gun. You can analyze this to death and you can go buy a serviceable gun and start enjoying it.

Just saw this. How about an RBL shotgun? I have one in 20 ga., screw in chokes. Took it to the skeet range and smoked birds (not 25 straight however, maybe 23 or 24 but, hell, for the first time out...), but, I normally shoot skeet with an O/U so I was pleased. They are not cheap, but wood quality is very good. My gun is light, and I wanted it that way because I wanted to hunt with it.
Peter.