Hello all,

I am looking for some advice. I was give a beautiful 2 piece of English Walnut that I would like to use on an O/U or SXS shotgun. I am not familiar with English or European companies unless Beretta or Benelli. My price range is around $1500 for a used gun, what brands or features should I look for? Is it possible to find a gun that needed stockwork? Can you give me your preferences or point me in a direction to begin research? I had researched older Silverhawks and the BL series of Berettas.

Thank You,

ddj

Trout:

I may be pointing out the obvious but IMO it is going to cost you AT LEAST $1500 just to get the stock made, even with free wood. The reason I say this is, it probably doesn't make economic sense to use a less expensive shotgun and spend that kind of money on the stock because when you get through, while it may meet your needs, it won't be worth much more than a less expensive shotgun with a run of the mill stock to other people. I've got some, I know.

Point is, if I were you, I'd consider saving money until I could get a shotgun that would increase in value to some extent with a nice stock. There are lots of possibilities, but very roughly, I would suggest that starts at about $3000 to $4000 for a Perazzi or similar.

There are many holes in the above statement, depending on what you are actually going to use the gun for (for instance, single barrel shotguns for trap can cost less and still increse in value with a nice stock) but I hope you understand the gist of what I'm saying.

As you mentioned, you might, with patience, find a good quality shotgun that has a broken stock but that will likely take a good while.

Gatogordo -

I totally understand and so goes the problem with custom guns. I guess I am looking for a O/U or SXS that maybe under valued. That was the reason I asked about the older Silverhawks and BL series or Berettas. I know I may not end up ahead but if I can find a gun that may have been functionaly fine but with average wood, it may be worth the effort.

Thanks for your response. I do appreciate it.

ddj

Gatogordo is probably right. I have a Browning sxs that I have wanted to put a nice piece of wood on but have thought the same thing as him. If I found a really good pc of wood at a really good price, then I think I would do it. Knowing it would not make it worth much more. But I sure would treasure it. That to me would be worth it as it would be a shooter.

69deer:

Not to be contradictory, but I'd go for it if you can afford it. I've done exactly that on two 101 Winchesters I own, pretty nice English Walnut if I do say so myself. If you use Wenig's and are careful about your wood purchase you can probably get out for less than $1500. Whether the result is worth it to you or not, considering the cost, is another matter, of course.

Again, trout and you both have to understand it is kind of like owning a boat, you're going to pour some money into it and it will still be the same boat as far as other people are concerned.

Another possibility for Trout MIGHT be a nice old mid-grade English SXS (or an American Fox, Parker, etc), there are many of them around that would be improved in value with a re-stock job. The increase in value will likely not be the totality of your costs, but it would almost certainly be more than on a common lower-end Beretta, for instance.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Another possibility for Trout MIGHT be a nice old mid-grade English SXS (or an American Fox, Parker, etc), there are many of them around that would be improved in value with a re-stock job. The increase in value will likely not be the totality of your costs, but it would almost certainly be more than on a common lower-end Beretta, for instance.

Very good advice there. I've just bought a 1926 John Dickson & son sidelock ejector that needed a bit of work.... nothing especially hard to do and more a matter of time and effort rather than anything else and I reckon the gun is now worth several times more than the price I paid for it.

A new piece of wood would do it the world of good with regard to looks and value and I may have it restocked when the exchange rate improves a bit.

Some good points and some points I disagree with.

First, lets talk about the blank. When was it cut? How was it dried? How thick is it? Can you post pictures? It is important to have correct grain flow through the wrist of the stock or it can crack/split/break from recoil. Correct alignment so as to get proper grain flow can be tricky with fancy wood. Post some pictures if you can.

Cost depends on a lot of things: is the shotgun a boxlock or sidelock? How complex is the inletting? How complex is the checkering pattern? How many LPI (lines per inch) do you want? Tear drop side panels or a skeleton buttplate obviously increase the price. If you want to stock a LC Smith with 32LPI checking and Fleur de Lis patterns, your bill is going to be a lot higher than if you want to restock a Ruger Red Label with simple 20 lpi checkering in a basic pattern. Here are two examples from my safe:

12ga Parker- restocked with very fancy and fine checkering (not by me). Not worth the money:




12 Fox Sterlingworth, basic restock (Again, not my me). Worth the money, in my opinion:



I just picked up a WC Scott 12ga Hammergun with damascus bbls, nice engraving and it still has some case color remaining. The stock has 1.5" of cast off- so it will obviously need to be restocked. I plan on that in the future. I talked to a friend who has had quite a few guns restocked and he said plan on spending around $1000, not including the blank. So depending on what kind of gun you want to get restocked, and how fancy you want to go, I think you can get it done for around $1000 if you aren't too fancy in your tastes.

What kind of guns do you like/want/need? I would look for an older gun- many have too much DAH or too short a LOP for people to shoot well. Keep your eyes open and you can find a very nice gun that needs to be restocked for a good price. Tell me what you are looking for and I can let you know if I see anything.

Good luck!



Steve, any pictures of the Dickson? That has to be one sweet little gun.

Storms beat me to it on the wood, but I'd say first things first. I had this piece of ebony I wanted badly to have custom handgun grips made of, but when it was examined by a stock maker they discovered it had many fissures or cracks in it I didn't know existed. The whole project was impractical because of that. On another occasion I had this strong desire to have a stock made of American walnut from the farm, but when it finally got down to it that project also was impractical. I'd consider carefully those type questions.

As far as the gun, I wouldn't do it with one of the plain, field grade older Berettas. The old Beretta I used to shoot had this awful recoil. Something about the balance or weight or lack of recoil pad. I don't know. As for Benelli, do they even make the SxS or O/U? I'm not saying they haven't, but I thought they did autoloaders.

Anyway, I'd put the gun first, then the stock/forearm. Between the two it's more important as I see it; I'd much rather have a Parker with original wood than an undervalued modern non-classic with an expensive custom stock.

The practical problem will be, can you get your money out of it when said and done. That alone has discouraged me from several gun projects.

Btw, be real CAREFUL buying that old classic. Many of those look great but are near totally worn out internally. You can probably guess how I found that out.

quote:

I had this piece of ebony I wanted badly to have custom handgun grips made of, but when it was examined by a stock maker they discovered it had many fissures or cracks in it I didn't know existed.

Not exactly correct, you could have had the wood stabilized and done anything you wanted with it. However, on a piece that small, it might have been cheaper just to buy another chunk of ebony. Stabilizing is a fairly complex process involving pressuring acrylic resins into the material and letting it cure. It works extremely well for some soft woods that are commonly used in knife handles today when it was impossible in the past. Among them are redwood burl, box elder burl, etc. Many wood knife handles and quite a bit of mammoth ivory is stabilized, otherwise they'd be too soft or crumble. However, all that said, I'm not sure if ebony takes stabilization well, you'd have to ask. They say cocobolo and rosewood do not, for instance, due to the oils in them. There are a few people doing it, but the most well known is probably here

Storm,

Here you go:





It was slightly off the face but not much and the wood hadn't seen any oil for over 30 years.

What really impressed me was that it had been stored in a cupboard for over 30 years with the springs compressed and then worked perfectly first time out...... how's that for quality!

I bought the motorcase separately and deliberately bought the most stuffed up one I could find and even that turned out to have a history.

I googled the name embossed on the lid and it turned out he had been a botanist who worked for the Natural History Museum in london in the 1920s who travelled all over central and east Africa researching the fungi of the regions.

His papers are still available on the net.

I had to move the partitions around to accommodate this particular shotgun and obviously didn't want to damage the old felt as new stuff would look out of place but with a lot of care, I managed to get away with it.

The gun is stocked for a right hander and I'm a southpaw but nevertherless I mananged a right and left at guinea fowl first time out. I'd like to restock it but can live with it at least for now.

quote:

but nevertherless I mananged a right and left at guinea fowl first time out.

Were they running or sitting?

I wasn't aware of the wood stabilization frankly, but it's not likely had I suggested it that the company doing the work would have considered it. That just wasn't going to be in the cards. They use their own wood usually but were letting me supply this and other exotic woods to them, for them to do the inspection and make a decision.

It was also for a hard-kicking big bore Auto Mag and it's difficult enough to find wood of any kind that it doesn't wind up cracking. Stocks for that gun are really wide and relatively thin. Typically, you need to add cushioning washers under the grip screws and still there's no guarantee. Most wood stocks don't have a reputation for reacting well to the recoil. I wanted them mainly for looks, and only occasional shooting.

Anywho, Shakari's gun is very good looking indeed.

Kind of you to say so.

I didn't have any plans to buy another shotgun but the guy was about to hand it into the cops for destruction and showed it to me on his way to hand it in...... it was just too beautiful for me to allow that to happen so I bought it from him instead.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Kind of you to say so.

I didn't have any plans to buy another shotgun but the guy was about to hand it into the cops for destruction and showed it to me on his way to hand it in...... it was just too beautiful for me to allow that to happen so I bought it from him instead.

Are you kidding?!?!?! I'll give ya what you paid for it. What a deal.

Can't really tell from the picture, much engraving on the receiver?

I'm afraid I don't have any close ups of the engraving but will take some tomorrow..... but it's normal rose and scroll engraving.

Thanks for the offer of my getting my money back on it but I think I'll decline for now at least...... hell, you'd have to give me a least a grand!

Thanks for all the advise guys! I will try to get some pictures of the wood today. It was given to me because it is going to have to be an English straight grip.

I am really not familiar with any of the English mid grade guns. Can anyone help me with some of them so I can do my research?

Thanks Again,

ddj

There's no end of middle of the road English gunmakers, esp if you go back to the 1920s-40s.

Probably much easier to look and see what's available in your local area and then do a quick Google on that particular manufacturer.

We've already spoken about my John Dickson & Son who are one of the better Scottish gunmakers and if you want a middle of the road English gunmaker, you could maybe look at someone like Hollis who made decent but not best quality guns.

You could also try doing a Google on things such as English gunmakers, London gunmakers or Birmingham gunmakers etc.

It probably wouldn't be a lot of use to you because it's here in RSA but FWIW, I have a Hollis BLNE with 25 (or so) inch barrels that's as tight as a drum for sale for UKP500 which translated to about US$700 or 750.

The gun was made in about 1935 and you might call it a good quality game keepers gun. I'm actually very fond of it but I'm only allowed a limited number of guns here so I have to sell it to make way for my Dickson.

It should be noted that Hollis made 2 standards of guns. The best ones fetch a fair bit of money and the lower ones such as mine is are worth about my asking price to a dealer.

Retail values would be (I guess) about 20-30% more than I'm asking.

Chambers are the same as my Dickson in that you can shoot 67.5 or 70 mm shells through them as long as they're rolled crimp and you don't want to reload the cases because you lose the last 1/8 inch of them when they break up when they hit the very end of the forcing cones when fired.

quote:

but I'm only allowed a limited number of guns here so I have to sell it to make way for my Dickson.

Sorry for the O/T editorial comment, but please accept our condolences on having to live under such a rule.

You blokes in the States don't know how lucky you are to have the firearms laws and freedoms you have!

Sorry it's taken me a few days to get these pics done and also sorry they're not better pics but FWIW, here's the engraving:

Thanks for the pictures and the help.

Here are the pictures of the piece of English that I would like to use. IT is at least 15 years old. It is thick but will probably need an English grip, which I prefer.

Any opinions would help. I would certainly appreciate your thoughts on shotguns for this stock.

Shakari, I wish we lived closer to do a deal. Maybe there is a way?





ddj

Damn but I can understand why you want to use that wood..... mate, it's stunning!

The Hellis could be exported and couriered to you but I've absolutely no idea of cost of that but feel free to email me at shakari3@mweb.co.za if you want to discuss it further.

I just can't get over that piece of wood..... whoever gave it to you must be a very good friend!!!

I don't know if this makes me a snob or not but I'm not sure I'd be able to bring myself to put that on anything except an old British gun!

I like English straight stocks on English or Continental guns and pistol grip stocks on American guns. Just my opinion.

However, the most famous waterfowling piece of them all, Nash Buckingham's original Bo-Whoop, was straight stock. That's how he preferred them.

Thank you! I agree that it would look good on a British SXS but the only name that is familiar to me is Holland and Holland. I need to do more research.


ddj

I personally reckon H&H are the most overrated and over priced of all of 'em..... esp post mid 1060s.

Lots of better and less expensive makers out there though!

Many thanks to all posters for a very informative and interesting thread! (I freely confess that I am a sucker for a)shotguns b) sxs c)English shotguns c) straight grip on a shotgun. (Not mentioned in the thread but also a favorite of mine were splinter fore ends)

Steve,
That gun has the same effect on me as Marissa Miller (look her up if you don't know who she is). Is that wrong? What a fantastic gun- now I am even more jealous.

Trout-
Nice hunk of wood. Grain flow where the wrist is somewhat difficult to tell, but it looks good. Can you get pics of the top and bottom? Is there any warping? Is that a hole in the blank at the bottom of one of the streaks, 1/4 of the way in from the left? If it is a hole, any idea of how deep it goes? What are the dimensions of the wood? The foreend piece looks a little questionable to me. Notice how there is a distinct lack of figure in bottom part? My fear would be that when they are trying to turn the foreend there would be part that was very well figured and part that was like firewood. Can you take pictures of the other sides?

As far as finding a suitable gun, take your time. Most people out there don't want to spend the money to restock guns, if you can find a gun with a cracked, broken, or missing stock, you can usually get them for VERY cheap. Financially, it wouldn't be the best move to get a gun with a perfectly sound stock and then replace it.

quote:

Originally posted by StormsGSP:
Steve,
That gun has the same effect on me as Marissa Miller (look her up if you don't know who she is). Is that wrong? What a fantastic gun- now I am even more jealous.

As far as finding a suitable gun, take your time. Most people out there don't want to spend the money to restock guns, if you can find a gun with a cracked, broken, or missing stock, you can usually get them for VERY cheap. Financially, it wouldn't be the best move to get a gun with a perfectly sound stock and then replace it.

I had to Google Ms Miller but I see what you mean.

More seriously, Storm raises a very good point in that a shotgun with a damaged/broken stock would be the best thing to look for.

Try looking on the net for local or maybe not so local firearms auctions to see if there's anything suitable.

Thanks guys,

The stock is very dry. The check in the picture is superficial but there is a chip on the bottom of the stock. The lighter wood on the forend isn't sap wood but is just lighter in the picture. Thanks for all the help guys. If you see a SXS with a boken stock let me know. Can anyone give me their recommendation on some of their favorite British SXS makers?

Thanks again friends,

ddj

If you want a run of the mill Brit shotgun, you might look for names like Hollis, Army & Navy, Parker Hale and BSA. Hollis and A&N being the better ones but not by much. As previously mentioned Hollis made 2 grades.

Towards the other end of the scale, you might look for John Dickson & Son, Westley Richards, Hellis, (not to be confused with Hollis) Boss, Purdey, Rigby & H&H etc. (forget post 1960s H&Hs)

If you really have an eye for elegance and a deep pocket, you might look for a round action sidelock (mostly Scottish)..... but they're never cheap and always rare.

There are also no end of smaller, lesser known makers out there. Most best gun makers used a lot of out workers to do at least some of the work and some of those out workers also made a few of their own guns as well.

Let me know if you're interested in importing because I was at my riflemakers the other day and I think I saw they had several Brit S/Ss in the workshop that had been handed in for safe keeping during the current licencing legal battles and I'm sure some would be for sale.

If you are interested, I'd be happy to go down there and look 'em over for you to see if there's anything special there.

You might also consider contacting Dig diggory who posts here as 'Small Bore' to ask what he has available. He's in the UK but really knows what he's doing and often has some very nice firearms for sale.

His website is at www.vuntageguns.co.uk

Steve said it best.

My only comment would be to post over on www.doublegunshop.com in the classifieds section, make a Wanted to Buy ad stating what you are looking for, someone there just might have something that interests you.