what are the advantages and disadvantages of each, I have been thinking about getting one of those spartan doubles just not sure which style is better

The SXS is traditional, the O/U is probably better as a competition gun.

Most individuals prefer the sxs on game, as they claim it points more "naturally".

I firmly straddle the fence. In my opinion, game guns up to 20 ga. can be SxS, while 12 and up should be single barrel or O/U. The reason is that the size of a bird and the size of the sighting plane of the gun should have a certain proportion to be "right" to me .

Or, to put it more succinctly: whatever floats your boat.....

As far as guns, take a look at the CZ guns as well. There is nothing worse than a clunky SXS, and the Baikal (i.e. Spartan) guns are not what I would call "svelte". HTH, Dutch.

Some REAL shotguner may have a good answer,but I like SxS. That is my whole list. I own a nice Browning O/U but love my SxS 16 ga.I think I am better with it. I know many who use one or the other for ths same reason. O/U seems to be more popular but there is more made.
I think we all shoot best what feels best to us.
I ask your Question a year ago at a local shop and answers I got is what I am passing on here.
Gene

I've gotten a pair of small gauge Baikal side by sides recently (20 and 28), and contrary to Dutch's opinion , they feel pretty good to me . The larger guages do have a more clunky feel . In comparing a CZ 20 with the Baikal , the CZ feels just slightly more lively , and about a quarter lb lighter . It is a nicer, prettier gun and it is also double the money . You get ejectors with the Baikal , but not with any CZ s/b/s .

The Baikal or, Spartans , in the 20 and 28 bore o/u persuasion seemed to me alot heavier (and more clunky) than the s/b/s . Ditto on the CZ , the o/u 20 bore weighs about 7 lb , while the s/b/s runs 6 1/2 lb .

I do think it is easier for most folks to shoot an o/u well over the s/b/s .

There is no difference that I can see...

...Until recently I was a SXS only guy...Went to the clays range with a buddy recently and shot better with his OU than I did with my SxS AH Fox FE (CSMC).

Figured out as does everybody who gets into this game....FIT IS EVERYTHING!

SxS- OU it doesn't really matter - if the gun fits you - your shooting will greatly improve.

I now own several of both and have concluded that it is a solely a matter of taste; SxS versus OU.

IMHO,

Jeff

Yes it's taste though the O/U has become more popular. You could compromise - some years back at a gun show I saw a beautiful 4 barrel 410 that had the same weight and balance as a 12 ga double.

I own both but I perfer the SxS i find they just point better for me.

I have always said real shotguns have 2 barrels the best ones are side by sides.

Very little difference, if any. I have heard some folks say that the Side by side does not have to open as far in a duck blind. That seems to be taking it to extremes. The wider plane of the side by sides can be distracting as far as lead. If you have a tendency to look at the gap between the barrel and the clay, it will mess you up. You do not see side by sides shot by serious competitive skeet shooters. I have used my old Belgium 12 gauge at skeet but just messing around. I like both of them.

The advantage of SxS's is that I have several of them. The advantage of OU's is that my wife's is a 28 ga and she lets me shoot it for her!

For ME:

I can't seem to swing longer barreled, 12 ga SxS. But, for OU's I need the longer barrels for 12's.

Smaller gauges there isn't a lot of difference, but I prefer SxS.

As far as general advantages...whatever you like and swings the best for YOU.

I follow the various sporting clays disciplines (FITASC, 5-Stand, Compak, English sporting, etc.) closely and have noticed NONE of the top competitors use side-by-side guns in regular competition. Many people hunt with them and in general the SxS guns are very cool but they are more difficult to shoot.

In strict SxS competitions I’ve seen the worlds best shooters scores seem to be 5 to 15% lower than when they use their favorite O/U or auto. One theory I’ve heard is the peripheral sight plane is so much wider on the SxS that you don’t instinctively stay as well aligned with the bird/clay.

Cool is worth a lot in the hunting world and if I could afford a nice SxS I’d hunt with it as much as I could. But I’d still shoot an O/U when money, trophies and pride are on the line.

Kyler

I think the difference in scores is due to the fact that you can't see around the side by side making you slower to pick up a rising bird when shooting with the gun already mounted. This is the same reason taken a step further for using the ultra high rib or un-single trap guns. You can see around the thin high rib easier than around a conventional single barrel, the same applies to the O/U vs SxS. This is pretty meaningless when being shot from low gun position as when hunting. Using this reasoning the 5-15% better scores in competition doesn't have a bearing on success with a hunting shotgun. This is one reason I don't mind hunting/shooting a 20-28 ga. SxS, but a 12 ga. the barrels are so wide they feel clumsy.

J,
You could be right but I doubt many if any guys are shooting sporting with a premounted SxS (it's not trap or skeet). In my experience most would shoot a low gun such as a FITASC mount. Not quite as low as a field position but plenty low enough not to obstruct their initial view of the clay.
Also you must remember that at least 50% of the birds on a clays course would typically be dropping (to some degree) rather than rising.

Kyler

I think you see higher scores with O/U because they are made as 8.5-9 pound guns that inherently swing better for for target-type shooting.

SxSs are traditionally "game guns", i.e.: non-magnum chambers, built light in weight for carrying, with straight-grips, splinter foreends and double triggers (for immediate choke selection).

To get to an apples-to-apples comparison for today's O/U you would have to compare it to a SxS of "live bird gun" or "pigeon gun" weight to have them comparable.

Kyler

I have just shot a little bit of sporting clays, but my emphasis was on trap and skeet, both American style and International(Olympic) style. The sporting clays that I have shot on are limited, but a good portion of the targets were rising, some almost straight up. Maybe there is a difference in your area, I never saw anyone shoot clays from a low gun position. In our international targets, this was determined by putting a piece of tape where your elbow touched your shirt and the butt must be below it until the bird is visible. What is the FITASC mount? Also to define a point, when I said rising, I meant that the trap would be below the level of the gun, as in the target is coming out under the gun, which makes it slower to pick it up, slower on a trap range means a drop in scores due to wind, etc. That is why the high rib trap guns make a difference, and they won't make anywhere near a 5-15% difference. Actually if they did the good shooters would nearly always run 100 straight. I haven't shot competitively since 1983, hence I have little sporting clays experience, although I shot for ten years as well as on collegiate trap and skeet teams as well. Anyway, as the last guy said, the SxS guns are designed as hunting guns, which wasn't always true as the old Parkers, Win. 21's were common, particularly in the days of live bird shoots, but they were designed as pigeon guns. I actually did well enough on the Handicap trap to become quite bored, after a while you're goal is to keep from missing, not try to break targets and switched competitively to handguns such as bowling pin matches, etc. Now I've gone full circle, do no competitive shooting, but shoot as much as ever mostly big game hunting.

J,
The FITASC mount is almost 10 inches (some metric number) below the top of the shoulder. It's not as low as International skeet.

That's too bad you didn't see many people shooting sporting with their gun off their shoulder. I think that dumbs down the sport.

I've shot mostly in the West and some in the Mid-West and I'd say of the people I've seen at tournaments at least 70% shoot with a low gun.

I always shoot with a low gun except trap style birds and clays that have to be broken right out of the machine. I even shoot competition skeet low gun and boy does it rattle the serious skeet shooters.

I'm sorry sporting clays didn't come around in time for you to get into it. It's so much more interesting than trap or skeet (IMHO). As you said you're trying not to miss in those games. In better set sporting courses you're working to read the birds and not have too many bad stations. The mental challenge is quite different. It seems to be very hard on the ego of serious trap and skeet shooters.

Back to the main topic. I know of a couple very serious (World title type) sporting clays shooters that have had specific SxS guns built for sporting competition and their scores are still considerably lower than when they shoot their O/U.

I think SxS guns are as cool as it gets for hunting but from what I've observed they are just flat more difficult to shoot. But I've been wrong before.

All the best,
Kyler

Sounds to me like that mount is kind of like when I slip the butt under my armpit, muzzle forward when walking in behind a pointing dog on quail! I think you are tight in that sporting clays were designed to relieve the boredome of traditional clay target shooting, by having different courses that are much like playing golf in different areas. That said, I actually shoot better competitively with an autoloader on trap and skeet or a really long barreled O/U. I hunt mostly with a Ugartechea 28 gauge SxS or a 20 gauge Beretta O/U, so I like them all.

Kyler,

The jury's still out with me; SxS vs OU, but...

....Who made those competition SxSs you were alluding to in your previous post?

I'd love to show up at the range with a full-on SxS for clays - It'll be the S#!T for confounding my shooting buds and give me a chance to improve my skills, given that all / most of my hunting is done with SxS.

JW

If you've ever had the bottom barrel empty fail to eject in a hunting situation you can appreciate the easier ejection and reloading of a side by side.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
Kyler,

The jury's still out with me; SxS vs OU, but...

....Who made those competition SxSs you were alluding to in your previous post?

I'd love to show up at the range with a full-on SxS for clays - It'll be the S#!T for confounding my shooting buds and give me a chance to improve my skills, given that all / most of my hunting is done with SxS.

JW

I'd think your best bet for a "competition" weight sxs would be a 12ga Model 21. Most of thier 12's weighed about 8lbs and if you had it re-stocked you could add some additional wieght to it.

The SxS guns that win the sporting clays shoots are recent Parkers.

I know Dale Tate builds some slick custom hammer SxS guns for special purposes too but they're bumping into 5 figure prices.

The little I've played with Model 21's I think they'd be a decent choice too.

At some point I'd like to get an old Remington hammer SxS sleeved to safely shoot modern loads by Briley and hunt with it. I won't shoot it as well as an O/U but it will be slick.

Kyler

quote:

Originally posted by Kyler Hamann:
The SxS guns that win the sporting clays shoots are recent Parkers.

I know Dale Tate builds some slick custom hammer SxS guns for special purposes too but they're bumping into 5 figure prices.

The little I've played with Model 21's I think they'd be a decent choice too.

At some point I'd like to get an old Remington hammer SxS sleeved to safely shoot modern loads by Briley and hunt with it. I won't shoot it as well as an O/U but it will be slick.

Kyler

Before you have one sleeved (cut off and new barrels fitted to the mono-block) check out the Teague process where they drill-out the entire bore and replace it with a new liner.

You would have to send the barrels to the UK to get it done (I think they charge about $1500US), but this is a good way of preserving the original barrels and even allow you to shoot full-nitro loads in an old, pitted damascus barreled gun.

Thanks New,
It's possible I have my terms confused but I thought sleeving was the process of boring out the original barrel(s) for a liner (or sleeve) of modern (stronger) material to be slipped inside the old barrel.
I think changing the barrels back to the monoblock would lose too much of the original personality for me... might as well buy a new gun.

Kyler

I don't agree with the concept that says you will drop 5 to 15% using a side by side. I know a shooter who won a world doubles title and of course he won it with an O/U. He can also go out and shoot a side by side and break 100's till the cows come home. Most good top level shooters can do the same. Some people will get thrown by viewing the distance betweent the clay and the barrel and that will give them problems. It is all an adjustment. I can switch and it does not bother me. I am more conscious of the clay and the bead for my lead.

I just can't buy that the side by side will effect scores to any degree.

Chic,

I am not nearly as experienced as you on this subject, but think your logic is spot-on. I have been going back and forth all season on doves here in TX....Can't see any real difference between the two types....At the skeet range my OUs do better for me and frankly I think that has mostly to do with fit.

The better my shooting gets; e.g. more practice, the less the perceived difference between these 2 types of guns becomes for me...I'd bet that if somebody would sponsor George Digweed with a competition grade SxS, he'd shoot the same percentages.

Jeff

Maybe 5 to 15% is too liberal of an estimate, I don't know. I'm just going from my observations of the periodicals that recount sporting scores throughout the world.
I do know that guys with a winning track record at sporting will still win in a SxS only shoot but their respective scores don't appear as high to me as when they shoot their other guns.
If there is NO difference between SxS and O/U guns why aren't there ANY SxS's at top level clay competition (i.e. Olympics, podium spots at World shoots, national top 10, All-State teams, etc.)?
I've been lucky enough to be at shoots with Digweed. I saw him shoot a Perazzi O/U to yet another World Championship FITASC title a few years ago. He only missed 7 of the very difficult birds out of 200 over 4 days of shooting. Sure, he'd still beat 99.9% of us with most any gun he shot but I seriously doubt he'd have as many world titles to his name if he stuck to a SxS.
There's no doubt that plenty of guys shoot great with SxS's but the question is do they shoot just as well as with their stack barrel or single barrel guns? Plenty of guys can probably shoot straight 100's with their SxS in skeet and some in trap but I'll bet there are very, very few recorded in sporting.
I can think of one guy who enjoys his SxS's the most but switches around between old pumps and a modern O/U too. He's plenty capably of coming in at the top ranks in small sporting shoots but it seems that when I see him taking home prizes under one arm the O/U is under the other arm.
Maybe it's just blasphemy to say anything negative about SxS guns; I don't mean any disrespect I'm just passing on an observation (though be it possibly too limited in scope and not backed by solid statistics).

Kyler

Personally, I was raised on O/U (I'm a trapshooter, mostly), so that's what I feel more comfortable with, much more comfortable. Although, one day when I was hunting, I handed my buddy my 870 and he handed me his 16-gauge SxS, and I was knocking birds down left and right with it, although it really felt weird. So, I guess if I really wanted a SxS, I could shoot it, but it really doesn't matter to me, so I'll stick with the O/Us I have (and pumps and autos). The statement about the SxS scores being 5-15% lower than the semi and O/U scores to me is fairly clear, the guy has more practice with the other guns, so he's going to do better with them. I know, a lot of world class shooters can pick up about any gun and break targets with them better than pretty much everyone on this site, but still, in shotgunning, familiarity and repition with muscle memory are your biggest friends, that's been brought home to me several times when I, myself, and some of my friends that are top notch trapshooters get a new gun. When it comes to hunting, I guess it wouldn't really matter, since not much is on the line. But, when it comes down to it for me, I would rather have more birds in my bag than look cool, after all, that's what we're out there for (well, kinda, it's really about having fun, but I'd still rather shoot well than have my buddies talking about how cool I looked).

Mike Michalski,
If that happens, all you have to do is push the barrels down a little farther, and the bottom barrel will eject. If you were hunting buffalo or elephant, I guess that could be a problem, but I'm not too afraid of ducks or doves, so with a shotgun, I'll stick with my O/U.

Serious shooters use O/U's and specific ones because they are more durable and dependable. Kolars, Perazzis and Kreighoff guns are built to last. Folks have used Holland and Holland guns and they fall apart with the type of punishment that trap and skeet can dish out in just a couple of seasons.

An O/U has no advantage for shooting accuracy over a side by side. It does have an advantage for longevity. That may just because the companies who have built guns for that type of punishment have not build their guns in a side by side configuration and that is because that is not what the public wants. The oher reason that you will not see anything other than an O/U on an Olympic podium or World champion shoots is that those people, 9 times out of 10 are paid to use those guns. The makers use the shootes skill as advertising and no one is making a s/s for sporting/skeet or trap. The public thinks that the shooter uses that gun because they bought it. Not hardly. I buy empties from a young guy named Paul Giambrone III who shoots skeet. Do a google search on his name. He is in his early 20's and has been the All American Captain for the last 2 years and was co captain with Todd Bender before that and has 9 World title to his name. He shot his first 400 when he was 14 and he is just 22 now, now that is irritating. He gets paid to use ammo, he doesn't just get it free, they pay him to use it. So who ever pays him the best gets his "stamp of approval". Unfortunately, he left Winchester and I like their small ga hulls. The market is driven by what is popular and the O/U is the most popular, no doubt.

You make the assumption that George Digweed would not do as well with a s/s, but it is just that, an assumption. He would win with anything that fit him well. You will not loose birds just because you are shooting a side by side. There are people who get thrown by the barrel width but the same holds true of folks who are used to a s/s and have trouble switching to an O/U.

The fact of the matter is that the really good durable solid guns are over/unders and that is what the serious top of the line shooter wants and uses. I can't afford them but I occasionally have the opportunity to drool on one. For one round, they don't shoot any better than the gun that I use, which is an O/U. I just looked behind me at my desk. There are 7 shotguns leaning against the wall. Three are O/U's, three are s/s's and one is a pump. I have 4 more in cases, three of them are O/u's and the other is a s/s. I do not feel any disadvantage taking either type.

Customstox:

You're wrong on this one. There is absolutely NO question that O/Us are more accurate that S/Ss and it doesn't matter who is shooting them. Durability it NOT a factor in live bird and some of the other games, such as ZZs. There are often TENS of Thousands of Dollars riding on ONE BIRD, the guys who seriously play these games don't care what a shotgun costs or how long it lasts if it would help them kill ONE MORE BIRD which is often the difference between winning and losing, between chump change and champ change. You can bet your bottom dollar that the winners don't step to the line with a S/S. They used to use S/Ss 50 years ago and they slowly converted because the O/U guys were beating them way too regularly. Same thing happened in all the shotgunning games, there is a reason and it ain't durability.

As far as the 5 to 15 birds per 100 difference, I'd say the lower end of that range is about right.

There are numerous reasons for the difference, the wider sighting plane probably being the main suspect. However, the "wandy" feeling that everyone loves in S/Ss, especially in the small gauges is HORRIBLE for good shooting. It may snap around great in the shop, look good on your shoulder, and carry good all day in the fields (the only real advantage) but it sure as hell costs you birds either when hunting or on the range.

Gatorado,
I totally....... disagree. It is obvious that the O/U has taken over the shooting games and they do feel good in your hands, but to a lot of people both of them feel good. I won't argue all of your points but they are all just opinion as are mine.

I would add one thing. To say that a top of the heap shooter would drop even 5 birds because of shooting a s/s is ludicrous. Opinion again with nothing to back it up except experiences of people that I know and too small a number to draw solid conclusions. But what id does show is that their choice does not affect their results.

For me it's all about the feel of an old sxs when you are out hunting.

I have hunted with semis, OU, and sxs.

SxS are just more fun and I have an Ithaca 16 gauge sxs that is so old it takes 2 1/2 shells.

When I hunt with that gun I get a feeling of hunting in a simpler time.

Alot of my hunting buddies rib me about hunting with "antiques" but I could care less.

SxS all the way

No, it isn't an opinion, it is a fact. Proven Daily by the thousands of shooters IN EVERY SHOTGUNNING except for the few that require a S/s AREA of Competition the DON'T USE S/Ss. If your OPINION had an truth to it, at least some of them would, but they don't. "nuff said.

Gatorado,
You could come up with a better argument than that. There is no doubt in anyones mind that the o/u is the gun of choice in competitins. That was not the argument. How you go from that to satisfy your argument is a mystery. Where is the comparison between the two? There is none. We were discussing a person using one or the other and having a lower score. You offer nothing of substance. More than "nuff said".

Of course you used Caps so I should probably just roll over.

Top-level sxss and o/us are both regulated (much like a DR) to throw thier patterns to the same point of impact (typically with a specific size and weight of shot). You won't find this in your over-counter-guns b/c they can't afford to regulate and sell them at an affordable price.

If both guns are patterned correctly (which is to throw the patters from both barrels to a certain percentage at a given distance), then one can't possibly be more inherently accurate than the other.

Can people shoot one better than the other? If that's what they practice with, sure.

But based on the regulation/patterning process, it's impossible for one to more inherently accurate than the other.

Customstox:

When you can show me ONE top level shooter in any open gun shotgunning sport that uses a S/S then your might have some basis for calling my statement of the FACT that O/Us can be shot more accurately than S/S an opinion. Otherwise, you are the one who has an opinion that is baseless in reality, which, the last time I checked separates fact from fiction (opinion).

One top shooter? Hal Hare, International skeet All-American. For the last several years he has been on the 1st team - and he did it shooting a CSMC Model 21 in all competitions. That pretty well takes care of your 'more accurate' BS.

Gatorado, tell me how the use of the type of gun dictates that it is more accurate???
Why can you not understand that distinction between that and the topic at hand?

BTW, glad that someone posted it for me, although I did not know of him, nor does it even add to the discussion. You are missing the whole meat of the topic.

I've always been a fan of the SxS, it's just a traditional double in my eyes...

Mine's an old, silver-worn AyA in 12ga and it's pure poison on quail, dove and rabbits...

Customstox:

Well, the guy who posted that S/S with regulated barrels and O/Us with regulated barrels AND YOU are both missing the point. Certainly they can shoot the same FROM A BENCH. Unfortunately for your and his points which are truly unrelated to the topic, which is the advantages of each type of double in use, the shooting of a shotgun at flying objects is NOT a Bench sport.

You have missed the point. You're probably shooting with a S/S and an unregulated one at that. Well over one hundred years of live bird and target shooting have absolutely proven that the single sighting plane offered by O/Us and, now, some semi-autos kills more birds, whether clay or live than S/Ss. Since you asked, THAT IS WHY ONE TYPE OF GUN IS MORE ACCURATE THAN ANOTHER, when it is used as it is intended to be used, at moving targets. Anyone who disputes this fact is ignoring history. All but the most modern of shotgun shooting games started with everyone shooting S/S doubles. They all shoot single sighting planes now. Do you understand why one type is more accurate than another now? If not, re-read this post until you do. Repeat after me, single sighting plane is the difference.

I don't care if you hunt with a switch, but if you want the maximum advantage for your shooting, you'll do it with a single sighting plane.

None of this is to disparage S/Ss, I probably own more and have shot more shells thru them than anyone in this thread, but when the chips are down, I'll reach for an O/U.

16fan:

I'm not sure what Hal Hare shoots all the time, but I suppose there is an exception to every rule. However, since you said he proved my "BS" (your opinion) wrong. I find this quote from him to be interesting. Bold Emphasis mine.

"We expect to see some impressive scores at these competitions, " says Hare. "Even with the handicap of using only traditional equipment at the Vintage Shoots or when the strict International rules are applied at the other events, good shooters will always amaze the crowd with their accuracy." A world-class shooter himself, Hare has been selected to the National Skeet Shooting Team for multiple years and has even been named the team captain.

End quoted text:

Now why would a master of the shotgun, who you say shoots one himself, describe traditional equipment, meaning S/S doubles, as possessing a disadvantage, if they don't......hmmmmmmmm?