Steel is a NO NO (Use that in the Benellis)
So there seems to be alot of alternatives ..Tungsten Busmuth and others! Would like the more affordable stuff BUT don't want to hurt that choke/barrel! She is a sweet 32" Full Heavy Duck...Smokes clays with Trap Loads!

As you have said you cannot use steel in those Winchesters so you are limited to the more expensive non-toxic shot options some of which are limited in shot size and payload.

It is the tight fixed chokes on these older guns that prevent the use of steel shot but there is the option of having the fixed choke bored out and muzzle internally threaded to use after market screw in chokes. This modification provides for a much more flexible gun, able to use steel shot and better suited for a range of game birds or target shooting including quail and skeet.

The problem is the alternatives are not going to get any better or available as sales drop off as more and more of the younger generation purchase the later guns made for steel. The X, Y, and Z generations don't value the old stuff.

At nearly 72 I'm not old school when it comes to shotguns, my multi-choke Miroku O/U has given me decades of pleasure on gamebirds and clay targets making the transition to steel shot without issue.

I like the Boss shotshells, which are copper plated bismuth. I have had good luck with the #3 shot on geese, and #5 or #6 on ducks.

Thanks so much !

Bismuth pellets do not damage bores.

Boss is the easiest to get as far as factory loads in bismuth shells, although I think Rio was doing some as well.

Reloadable bismuth is also out there if you reload shotgun. It's easy, pretty much same components and method as lead, although the charge bars throw lighter than marked with bismuth.

I've had good luck with #4 for general waterfowl use, and use either #2 or #BB for geese depending on range. Bismuth also chokes much more similarly to lead.

The rule of thumb seems to be use 1 size larger pellet than you would with lead, (given how long ago you used lead) 1-2 sizes smaller pellet than you would with steel.

You don't need the velocity you have to use with steel, most of my stuff is 1250-1300 FPS for bismuth shells.

I've even use card/fiber wad bismuth shells. That worked surprisingly well in one of my older guns.

Looks like Boss Shells are the Boss!
Thanks All you Quackers

I shoot 2 3/4" Boss shells out of my Mod 12 Duck very happy with their performance...
I strongly suggest you check the capacity of the Magazine tube.... When I got my Mod 12 Duck it would hold 2 3" shells BUT 3... 2 3/4" shells, the problem was easily fixed with an appropriate length of dowel

Good to know! Thank You!

Question:

I load TSS shot. Because TSS is extremely hard, it is loaded the way that shot will never have contact with barrel. Wad walls are thick and/or mylar is used. I shoot it from modern O/U with Muller chokes. Including UFO/Turkey choke (comparable to X-Full or Super Full).

Can those loads, if loaded to proper pressure levels, harm in any way old shotguns with fixed chokes? I don't think so.

Jiri

The problem with really hard shot is that it does not compress and you might "ring" the chokes in full choke guns. I have seen this happen to several guns. If you have the chokes opened up you can avoid this. The other problem with steel and other modern loads is that they are too harsh for the older guns,particularly the British guns. Guns loosen up, stocks crack, etc. I have seen this as well.

My Miroku O/U shotgun is a modern gun made in 1984 with Invector chokes. It is not proofed for steel shot but Miroku have issued the following statement;

"All hunting or sporting shotguns (over-and-under or semi-auto guns) by Browning, Winchester and Miroku fitted with the original chokes (Invector, Steel Invector Plus, Stainless steel Invector Plus, Teague, Briley, Midas, Diamond, Signature chokes) can fire "high performance" steel shot cartridges.

Tested at the Liège test bench (high performance 1370 bars) in accordance with European law on the use of steel shot

(1370 bars = 19,870 psi)"


As bghntr416 has said, it is the non-compressibility of steel shot that is the issue, the fact that the shot doesn't physically touch the bore on the way down the barrel has little to do with damage that older fixed choke shotguns can and do suffer.

Steel loads are more violent than the equivalent lead loads as they are loaded with special powders to accelerate the shot charge to the higher velocities to get the performance required from the lighter pellets of any given size. Steel loads do not have cushioning wads either another reason why they are more violent and harder on the old guns.

Hunters using semi-auto guns probably do not notice because of the recoil absorbing features of gas operation or specific built in anti recoil features but quite different if using an O/U gun where steel loads are noticeably harder in recoil than the same charge of lead.

I've used steel in my Miroku O/U gun for quite a few years now and the bores are mirror perfect as they were new. I do make it a habit to remove the screw in chokes every so often and lube the fine threads with anti-seize grease to ensure they do not become thread bound.

quote:

If you have the chokes opened up you can avoid this.

My choke I use for TSS is more tight than full. But of course new, modern one.

quote:

Steel loads are more violent than the equivalent lead loads as they are loaded with special powders to accelerate the shot charge to the higher velocities to get the performance required from the lighter pellets of any given size. Steel loads do not have cushioning wads either another reason why they are more violent and harder on the old guns.

Asked about TSS, not steel.

TSS has much higher density (m/V ratio) than lead. By about 70 %. Performance is much better than lead, no need to drive it crazy like steel shot. For example 2 3/4" 1 1/4oz TSS load, 1309 fps and 6393 PSI using wad with cushioning section. I think it is mild at all.

But I can understand integral choke problem (thin barrels) and hard to compress shot.

I can say I ruined a few barrels (in the sense of surface damage, not blowing things up) with steel shot.

Thsi was in the old days, before they went to the high velocity (and of course it worked like S..t.)

Given that while it was with the thick protective wads, I do think it is due to the hardness (if it scrubs through the wad, you have damage) and the "cushioning" does nothing about that.

I don't think you will blow something up using hard shot (steel, TSS, etc.) but I do think you will likely damage things. I have seen new guns with damage to the choke tube from running steel through them- but all that did was require you to get a new choke tube.

An old gun with fixed chokes- worst case will bulge the barrel before the choke. Most likely you will see linear scrapes in the barrel and the choke will get widened out. With the better wads and additional protection (like mylar wraps) most use with TSS, it might take more shells to get to that point, but frankly, if we have a soft alternative (bismuth) I don't see the point in risking the damage. The mettalurgy isn't as good in the older guns, and they have had a couple lifetimes of use as well...

In a modern choke tube gun, at most you will be out getting rid of the old choke tube, and buying a new. No major deal...

This is a great thread and as I have recently returned to waterfowl hunting, I cannot beleieve all of the different shell options. It looks as if I need to try the boss. Do these have the same velocity/range and the traditional steel shot, comparable loads?

Too bad that the military is using up all of the depleted uranium. It would make wonderfully dense and deadly bird shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Too bad that the military is using up all of the depleted uranium. It would make wonderfully dense and deadly bird shot.

Except uranium is toxic in its own right…. Never pass USFWS muster.