How do "quality" US shotguns, such as Parker, Lefever and Ithaca stack up with best British and Continental models?

I have my own opinion, but nothing really solid to base it on. Would anyone care to comment?

Well you left out the one maker that would stack up the best and that is Fox. Many British Shotgun enthusiasts think that it was the only US gun that approached their idea of a fine gun.

IMHO, people seem to compare US guns as mentioned to British game guns and I don't think that is a good comparison.

The one's I have seen (US) are on a part with the above average UK guns.

It depends on what you are comparing.

I also haven't taken apart many US guns to look inside.

.

Not quite sure what the question is aimed at, but I have a Connecticut Shotgun Manufacturing RBL side by side in 20 ga. It is a handsome gun and shoots well although I have not used it much. With the skeet choke tubes in, it shoots skeet well. Came with a case etc. A fine gun im my book. I can post pictures if requested. It is, of course, a SxS.
Peter.

I may be wrong and often am but in my opinion the Winchester Mod 21 will stand up well to almost all of the English guns with the same type of action and locks.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
How do "quality" US shotguns, such as Parker, Lefever and Ithaca stack up with best British and Continental models?

I have my own opinion, but nothing really solid to base it on. Would anyone care to comment?

In general poorly, take a US made gun apart and look inside,...most are overly complicated, and poorly finished parts.

Try and keep ejectors working in a Parker, barrels on Foxes are often poorly done, Ithaca has a frame shape that is as ugly as a mud fence, the LC Smith has problems with the stock cracking, The Win 21....well you can say they are stout and tough but about as graceful as Hilary's ankles.

The only plaice in the world they have any value is in the US. I have bought graded Foxes, Parkers, Smiths, Winchesters, and org Lefevers in Europe for very low prices because they have almost no value to the locals. Often times they will only be tagged "American Shotgun", as if it was not worth the time to spell out the maker .

quote:

they are stout and tough but about as graceful as Hilary's ankles.

Hmmm, never noticed!
Peter.

Apples and oranges, gentlemen.

American shotguns, even the more expensive models, were largely built for persons of relatively modest financial means, the "proletariat", if you will. European shotguns were built for the "landed gentry" of nobles and others of significant wealth and social standing. The price of the most expensive American shotguns never approached that of European models.

In America, your grandpa might have been able to own a Parker even though he was only a small town merchant. In Europe, your grandfather probably only owned a Purdy if he had a title in front of his name.

Certainly things have change in the last 100 years or so, but since the subject seems limited to shotguns of that era it seems only fair to compare the circumstances of that era.

Incidentally, other than the RBL an one or two other specialty manufacturers, there are practically no high-quality doubles being made in the U.S. A Ruger is tough but plain; and everyone else's American-branded shotgun is made abroad.

Stonecreek, I agree with you, but there IS a market for quality shotguns. American manufacturers choose not to try to fill that market. They would rather sell thousands of guns than hundreds. Browning makes a good quality skeet gun IMHO, but the top shooters use Perazzis, Krieghoffs and Berettas. They cost significantly more than the Browning but top shooters choose to buy them (or are given them!).
Peter.

I agree, apples and oranges. Back when a new M21 cost 400$ a new Purdy was 2-3k$. The M21 will live on a diet of loads that would make your Purdy self destruct. The US mfgs. have always gone after the quantity market because the average guy in the US can (almost?) afford to go hunting. Competition guns are a different world. The cost of the gun is lost in the noise compared to the rest of the expenses, just one of the costs of doing business.
C.G.B.

I'd agree with the US went for the quantity market.


cgbach
Re "he M21 will live on a diet of loads that would make your Purdey self destruct."

if you are talking Purdey Game Gun, maybe but
a good English Pigeon gun will stand big loads for a long time just like the M21.

You just need to compare apples with apples.

Unless you are a competitive shooter, most will last 3 lifetimes. I have a CSMC Fox 20 gauge that I would rather hunt with than any shotgun I own. Fit makes a big difference and when you are fitted properly everything just works better.
I also own a Wesley Richards drop lock 12 that I adore. Outstanding workmanship.
I do not think I will wear out any of them. My children will enjoy them when I am gone.
Are you interested in showmanship, workmanship or utility? I know a lot of guys that are bonded to their vintage guns; Purdy's, Parkers, Fox's, you name it. Most of these guys admire one anothers guns and relate to their owners. It would seem odd to see of these guys carrying something other than what you expect.

Here it is boys...... Design rules. in NAME BRIT GUNS, the attention paid to hand fitting all the components makes the guns timeless, reliable as sunrise and well beyond the means of mere mortals. These guns were designed to be hand fitted works of art..

Name American guns were designed to be affordable to persons of above average means, yet use the manufacturing methods of low volume assembly lines to get to market. They were minimally hand fitted and while they cleaned up nicely, were not usually anywhere close to the Brit guns in fit and finish until they got into the highest grades of guns....

Spektr, I think one can draw a distinction between "quality" and "top of the line". Clearly "top of the line" are in a class by themselves. However I think that one can still distinguish between "quality" and "mass produced". Sometimes quality just means better looking wood. In most cases, however, quality means taking better care in the production of the final product and inclusion of eg. a fitted case, firing caps, oiler, better wood etc. etc. All of which are included in the "best guns" but at a premium price!
Peter.

I agree with most everything that has been written thus far. Some decent American SxSs were made in the teens & twenties, however, the vast majority don't begin to compare with vintage Brit guns in terms of craftsmanship, and handling.

I have owned and hunted three American doubles that stand out in my mind, however, as being excellent field guns:

The first is an original 28ga Parker on the 00 frame with 28" bbls, DT, PG. It is well proportioned and a superb quail gun. I bought a similarly configured Parker Repro except for a single trigger for real use. Although dimensionally it was very close, it just didn't shoot the same and I quickly got rid of it.

The second a Fox 16ga Sterlingworth with #4 (lightest) 30" tubes from around 1913 IIRC. It was a TIGHT Mod/Full and an absolutely fantastic dove gun and for long passing shots on pheasant.

Finally, I've hunted a friend's 12ga Fox Sterlingworth that long ago had its barrels hacked to 24". There isn't any choke left and it's a real POS, but deadly on quail over good dogs.

As an American, I will say that it feels right to be hunting in our rough/walk-up style of shooting with vintage American guns despite the shortcomings of these compared to the British guns. As to ranking the various American makers, I much prefer the Foxes. They're simple, handle reasonably well and tend to stay tight. Parkers are over-engineered and fiddly, especially the ejector mechanism. I put a friend onto a low-grade 20ga Lefever a few years ago that has served him well, but after talking to a few gunsmiths, I'd hate to own one that had gone tits up and was in need of repair. I have limited experience with Elsies and Ithacas-I shot teal a couple of years ago with a 16ga Ithaca Field Grade and it performed fine but was nothing special.

In closing, I think there is a huge disconnect between price/value in the "higher" grade American doubles and I personally have zero interest in shelling out big bucks for anything better than a Sterlingworth, or D grade Parker. There is something quaint about the cartoonish American engraving and I do have a soft spot for
the Ithaca and Baker dogs (which I think are the best of the lot) and might pay a little extra for them. Otherwise they represent a decent value for a hard use field gun provided you can shoot the drop and find one that handles reasonably well.

The market determines the value. I am amazed at the $$$'s that are being spent for what I consider to be very average quality American guns. But what I think doesn't matter....its what the market thinks.

I am very happy that so much attention is focused on these older US guns, many made in upstate NY to be thrown in the back of horse drawn wagons and old pick ups. It means there is less competition for the nice Belgian, St. Etienne and Suhl guns which are for the most part just P'sOS and are best left to bottom feeders like myself

I have or have had Foxes, LC Smiths, Parkers and Stevens. None of them fit me worth a damn, and some of them gave me trouble. I've looked at H&Hs and other Brit guns that were all made for somebody else and were way too expensive. Berettas are too straight for me and I won't pay for a Perazzi, etc. I'll take a Remington auto for field use over any of them anyday. They are the classic American shotgun IMHO.