I have been looking for a nice fast handling upland shotgun. I admit to not being a shotgun enthusiast but I use them. Over the years I have liked side by side guns as it's about the look of the gun to me.

Of the ones that I have handled none seemed to have the feel I wanted. The search became more intense of late when I handled a Kimber Valier. This gun had the feel that I have been looking for as it's quick to point, the balance is between the hands and it's nice and light.

http://www.kimberamerica.com/valier.php

On the negative side the Valier is very expensive. I am not even sure what it's price is but one with ejectors must go over $4000 and I see that the standard LOP is 14.75" and I just don't understand the long stocks on shotguns. I have my habits and taste such as they are.

I looked at a original 21 skeet 1, skeet 11 in 20 ga and it was a nice gun but for the $9500 they ask today just not the ideal upland gun for me. My smith has a nice Sauer post war with a beavertail forend, fine wood, pad and 3" chambers for $2400 but that gun does not have the balance I want. It's a little heavy. If I wanted a heavier 20 ga I would grab it as I like Sauers.

The Connecticut Shotguns RBL as compared to the Valier does have the pedegree but is too muzzle heavy for me. It just does not handle.

Then I came upon a old Bernadelli Gamecock in 20 ga with 27.5" barrels, choked IC & F, double triggers and English grip. This gun has the feel. It's as fast and sweet as it gets. Seldom do I pick up a gun and just know it's right.

Now this old gun has shortcomings. It's just a field grade with no ejectors and the barrels could be shorter. But at 5.75 lbs it's as quick as it gets. So I brought it home and here it is. Not bad for $695. Just my opinion.

Savage99, that's a nice looking gun at a good price. Have you ever looked at a Fox Sterlingworth? With 4 weight barrels they can come in at under 6 pounds. Finding an ejector one might take some looking but they are out there and they are sweet. 26 inch barrels and a 14" LOP would be one fast handling gun. If the 1 3/4" DAC is too much for you, you could always have the stock bent.

Larry

Thanks for the feedback Larry and welcome to the forum. I have never seen a 20 ga Sterlingworth for sale not that I have been up on this. Nor have I seen a light one in 16 ga.

I hope this one works out. I may shoot it tommorrow.

If it doesn't work out for you I would take a serious look at the Sterlingworth's. I just looked on Guns America and there are 5 or 6 20 gauges for sale and about the same number of 16's. One of my 16 gauges weighs 5 lbs. 12 oz. and it has 28 inch barrels. There are a lot of variances with these guns though. They have to be evaluated on an individual basis.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976631713.htm

Larry

The 16 gauge Sterlingworths and the 20 gauge are on the same frame, so there is really little difference in them. I recently bought one which looks to be unfired and unused for 1400. I just sent it to Mike Orlen to have the chokes opened and the stock bent.

As to the length, I shot a lot until I realized how much easier it is to shoot instinctively with a long stock. I am 6'1" and like them about 15-1/2". Not to pidgeonhole things, but the American shotgun stock seems to have evolved for pass shooting waterfowl and trap shooting, both of which involve "aiming" a shotgun, somewhat.

Just interested, but what are you basing the comment on the handling of the RBL on? To my knowledge, they have never been shown anywhere, and only a few people who live in the area and post on other boards have stopped by and seen them. I read one comment from one of these people stating that he thought the gun had a barrel forward feel. However, the barrels on the gun at the factory also has barrels which are going to be modified before production.

As to the Valier, my personal opinion is that Kimber has kicked this one in the weeds. I don't think it is worth anything near what they are asking for it.

Get a Parker.

Savage99:

Looks like a nice gun at a very good price. The longer barrels will actually help your shooting, ESPECIALLY with a lighter weight gun.

Although there are good shooters on both sides of the equation, I am a strong proponent of shorter stocks THAT FIT (key phrase). I advocate just enough LOP to keep your thumb from banging your nose with the heaviest loads you'll shoot in that gun. That usually translates into about 1 1/2 to 2 inches from your nose to the back of your thumb, obviously when the gun is mounted. I can't understand why anyone finds a longer (than the length mentioned above) stock an advantage, they are slower to mount and heavier. However, if they work for that person, that is all that counts.

Have fun with your new used gun.

Thanks for being helpful. I admit right off not to being expert at all on shotguns.

As to what I think fits me sure enough a professional at fitting might improve my shooting and change my mind. The thing is that I just bounced from pillar to post on shotguns and I happen to think that a 23.5" barreled drilling is a good shotgun.

It's true that the Galazan RBL that I handled is a prototype and the barrels are going to be changed in production. I have no idea how the Kimber Valier is doing sales wise but the local shop here has sold two of them. I am about average in size at 6' and have a 74" reach. How that translates into liking shorter stocks I have no idea.

I agree about drillings. I have an old 16x16x9.3x72 which has hammers and is a well balanced bird gun. It all has to do with weight distribution, I think.

Gatorgordo mentions liking shorter stocks, and a lot of people do. The whole issue of stock length comes into play when selecting a shooting style. If you use one of the instinctive shooting styles and really point the gun, then it is pretty important that the stock be longer to improve the pointing instinct. The length is really not a problem mounting the gun, since the mounting method, which is part of these systems, is totally different. It's almost like learning to shoot again, but it once I "crossed the fence" I found my game shooting improved dramatically.

By the way, the weight is not an issue, since the butt is generally bored out to balance the gun. A longer stock has a longer moment arm, so the stock actually has to weigh less to achieve the same balance point.

Savage,
That is a fantastic gun and a good price.

I would love to have one just like it myself

Savage:

The Bernardelli's are sleepers. You have gotten a lot of gun for the money, and in my opinion yours has the most versatile choke and barrel length setup for general upland shooting.

Good luck, and have fun.

Dave

Savage99,
I would have taken that gun in a hearbeat and never looked back. I like the barrel length and unless it was a chukar gun, I would even like more weight but that would not stop me from opening my wallet and taking that gem home with me.

Thanks for the kind remarks, again I am a neophyte with shotguns. The decision to buy the Bernadelli came with a conversation Saturday with my smith. He always has some fine guns there and he showed me a Darne. It was a very handy gun and just what I like. I remember the Darne from the old Stoegers way back. The thing is that I am no longer a fan of them even though this one seemed quite fine for only two G's.

I was handling his Sauer 20 ga that is priced at $2400 and I asked him what he thought of it. He said that it was a little heavy and I agreed. Then I mentioned that there was a Gamecock for sale in the $600's and his face lit up and he said "thats the gun you want"!

To be honest I had never heard of a Bernadelli Gamecock before. I shot it today and it functioned fine. Some initial patterning shows it to be normal. The thing I have to get used to is the very high modern comb. The Ithaka 37's and Sauer that I shoot all have the old fashioned low combs and one can just see over the top of the barrels. On this Bernadelli one can see the ends of the barrels sticking up. It shoots to point of aim however. This is going to take some getting used to. It's not like aiming a rifle.

At least thats my take on it.

I don't know the dimensions of your Gamecock, of course, but it is fairly common to find Euro guns with high combs. The Italians, especially, do this as a result of their live bird shooting which is now banned as a "blood sport" in Italy (replaced, to some extent, by ZZs). They like to see the whole bird over the barrels, thus the high combs. I have an SO3, made in 1949, that is the same way

If it really is high (as opposed to your thinking it is high compared to the low combs you are used to)then you will probably have a difficult time on live game. Easiest solution is to lower the comb AFTER YOU ARE CERTAIN IT IS TOO HIGH FOR YOU. Like most things in woodworking, it is easy to take it off, but hard to put back.

Don't go cutting down the comb if the gun shoots to point of aim. Your head is the rear sight, if you lower the comb it will shoot low and it's hell to hit rising upland game with a low shooting gun. Keep the target out over the barrels where you can see them. The Bernardelli is a nice gun and the 27-28 in. barrels are just right on a double. 26 in barrels are for pumps and autos at least for me, too short and stubby for a double.

jstevens:

Of course, if it "shoots to point of aim" it won't need lowering, but shooting to the point of aim, while physically shooting at a still target as opposed to mounting the gun in a fluid motion and firing at a moving target or, for that matter, a dot on a sheet is not necessarily one and the same. I can shoot the SO3 I mentioned to POA easily by firmly cheeking it. However, that extra firm cheek position is not natural to my shooting style. In short, if it fits him and actually shoots to POA that's fine, but being reluctant to reduce comb height simply because "it's factory" is folly. OTOH, I haven't sanded on the SO3 since it is so light that I don't shoot it much anyway. Go figure.

I'm with Art S. on the Kimber. The value ain't there...A nice AYA sidelock can be had for less $$...

...Those old Sterlingworth and "A"-grade foxes are excellent values and are hell-for-stout.

I'd buy a Parker Reproduction before I'd buy an original, if the intent was to go hunting and not make an investment.

Otherwise, that little gun you have pictured looks really nice for the field!

JW

I am having some difficulty adjusting to the high comb. This gun shoots high and left for me on stationary paper. I need some clay practice to see what really happens on moving targets.

Here is the V. Bernadelli site. I find no USA importer.

http://www.bernardelli.com/

Savage99, if high combs bother you then I have the gun for you. :-) A Lefever DS 16 gauge with a DAH of 3 1/4" and DAC of 1 7/8". Gun weighs 6 lbs. 1 oz..

Larry

Savage99,
Sounds like you need some cast off and some more drop. It may be a candidate for stock bending.

DT,

Can you hit anything with that gun of yours???

JW

Well I can! The dog pointed a phesant this morning and I was ready. It burst out at our feet and twisted away. The one oz. load of copper plated 6's hit it dead center from the IC barrel. The air had a ball of feathers floating away.

So the Bernadelli and I are 100%.

JW, sorry for the late reply. I've been off hunting chukars all weekend but not with the Lefever. Unfortunately for her, she's the only gun I have with that much drop and she's competing with some very nice Fox Sterlingworth's for time in the field. If she was my only gun I'm sure I could learn to shoot her better. I know how much rib I need to see to hit what I'm shooting at so I just bring the old girl up to where she's moderately pressed against my jaw bone. It's just a more heads up position for shooting. I've hit targets with her with no problem but haven't tried her on chukars yet but will later in the year when her tight dimensions will be more useful. She's a very refined elegant lady, just a bit too bow legged for most.

Larry

Looks like a really nice shotgun. I have a 20 ga browning citori upland special with 26" barrels, straight grip stock choked ic/mod and it is a great little bird gun.

Savage 99
I bought a bill Hanus AYA bird gun in 20ga about 5 years ago. Its by far the best gun I ever owned. They come with cast off or cast on and can be ordered with the stock length you want. Its chocked skeet I & II. I've kill close to 600 birds since I've owned it.

Kward I also owned the same Citori as yous in 20ga. While I shot it well the AYA blows it away. The citori has on cast off to the stock and without a tight cheek to stock wield you will miss with it.

The AYA is made just like an english bird gun for a lot less. While not cheap. I think I paid $1,800 for mine, I will never part with this gun.

I just came across this thread cause im still searching for another SXS.

Like JP sauer, ugartechea, aya etc. I even like alittle worn off blueing.

Now to find "the killer deal".

I was checking out The Husqvarna mod 610 at Sarco TJ's corner . Dont know though .Iv never even seen one and they probably way more than 7#

Savage99. 27.5 " barrels too long on a 20 ga?

I used to think short was better .But found out that 26" barrels are to "wipey" and i could not hit anything. I found that 28" on a 20 ga sxs or o/u would swing beter into the shot and was smoother and easy to hit fast quail with.

Let me know if you dont want that gun.

Rick

GSP7;

Forget the model 610 if you are looking for a lightweight upland gun. Look for a model 310 instead. The 610 is to Husqvarna shotguns what the 1964 model 70 was to Winchester rifles. It's a gun designed by cost accountants.

Thanks Steve, glad I didnt buy one of the 610s

Do you know if Sarco has any 310s? I talked to TJ but he didnt even mention if he had a 310. Im guessing sarco has a ton of stuff and they arent realy sure what they have...??

TJ knows how to read Husqvarna model markings, and I believe they had a 310 or two on the list when it was first put on the website. I don't think they had many of them and maybe they are all gone. There are other sources for 310's like Ken at Kebco and there are "private" sources as well.

Savage, that's a great shotgun, great price. I owned a similar Bernadelli Roma 6 20 gauge, shot and handled extremely well, hell on pheasants, quail & doves.

JW, I guess I can hit something with that old Lefever with the crooked stock. Used it all weekend and managed to kill 7 Huns and 3 chukars with it. It's not the perfect upland game gun, probably would be better pass shooting doves and ducks, but it was really fun carrying it and shooting it this weekend.

Larry

I own a Chapuis "Becassier" in 12 gauge(a becasse is a woodcock in French) and find it to be quite nice. Beautiful lines, light, great handling. I don't know who sells Chapuis in the USA but you might want to look at one before making the final decision. I think it is Bernardelli which makes a model called the "Hemingway" which is also a nice looking side by side.