how hard is it to find ammo for this? offered a awesone deal on a model 12 in 16 ga, but it takes 2 9/16 size shells. could i possibly get another barrel for it to accept the regular size sheels, or should i pass?

No problem, use 2 1/2 inch modern loads from Polywad ( order on line, shipped to you UPS)

Also used Westley Richards ( also on line) but Polywad recoil is much less in a light
gun.

I think there is a website called http://www.16ga.com.
They should have some links for these.

Poly Wad, Westly-Richards, Estate, RPI all make 2-1/2 inch (65 millimeter) 16-gauge loads. Average cost per box of 25 is about $9.00. Very efficient, also very easy to reload. Ballistic Products has components and reloading data.

John Barsness wrote an artical recently that indicated that no harm comes from shooting longer shells in a shorter chamber. I do not have the particular magazine title and date for immediate reference available right now (Handloader, I think), but you should be able to track it down.

I make no claim that Barsness is correct (nor that I have properly represented what he says in the artical); I merely point out his work for your benefit.

Also, it's no big deal to lengthen a shotgun chamber and likely wouldn't have a negative effect on the value of the M12 in question.

DO DO NOT TRY TO SHOOT 2-3/4 INCH SHELLS IN A GUN WITH SHORTER CHAMBERS. (Yes, I am shouting intentionally!)

Also, with a Model 12, it is very difficult to get the short chamber guns to feed relably with the longer shells as the frame and mechanism were all sized to the shorter shells, and with a Model 12 you will decrease the value of the gun.

As to shooting 2-3/4 inch shells in a shorter chambered gun, yes you can do it, but every knowledgable gunsmith that I have talked to (Duane Wiebe, LeeLeBas, David Yale, Dale Tate) recommends against it. It acts directly the opposite of opening the forcing cones. Due to increased restriction for the crimp to open(esentially a very short forcing cone), pressures are increased significantly, thus increasing recoil and wear on the gun. This may explain why so many short-chambered guns are off face and/or have split stocks.

Also, I have been advised that lengthening chambers should only be done if barrel wall thickness at the forward end of the chamber will remain at least 0.95 inches thick, and then stick to the 1-ounce loads that the gun was built for.

Using 2.75-inch shells in guns chambered for 2.5-inchers is perfectly safe as long as you keep the pressure of the load no higher than what the gun was designed to shoot. Sherman Bell debunked all these old fears in a series called ''Finding out for myself,'' which appeared in Double Gun Journal. This is a handloader's proposition, so don't for a moment think you can safely shoot regular U.S. in short-chambered guns.

It'll work ... but they won't feed well. Use the 2.5" shells.

BTW ... I'm looking for some 2.5" shells. Who makes them?

And does anyone make the 2 9/16" at all?

Joezed:

What about the fact that a longer shell is projecting into the "cone" of the barrel? That has nothing to do with chamber pressure but most assuredly will have a hell of a lot to do with producing a barrel bulge! Did your "expert's" article mention about what the patterns might look like- to say nothing of damage to the barrel?

The minute amount of plastic protruding toward the forcing cone won't cause a barrel bulge: ponder for a moment the amount of steel at the cone. Bell's testing was done with Tom Arbrust's pressure gun and was documented at every step and showed pressure to climb by about 500 psi when longer shells were fired in shorter chambers. 500 psi is nothing. As to 2.5-inch ammo: Westley Richards, RST, Eley, Polywad(vintager) and Gamebore make them available in the U.S. For 2.75-inch, low-pressure loads there's Olympia, B&P and Armusa. Oh, there was no barrel damage the the articles were not designed to study patterns.

Joezed:

I'm not doubting the data in the article cited, but keeping the pressures down is the rub. The problem is that most factory 2-3/4 inch loads run at a higher pressure than most 2-1/2 inch loads.

Dave

Precisely. That's why I mentioned in my first post the caution against using U.S. ammunition. Keep loads at CIP levels and all will be well.

quote:

Originally posted by Joezed:
Precisely. That's why I mentioned in my first post the caution against using U.S. ammunition. Keep loads at CIP levels and all will be well.

Actually, I am under the impression that U.S. factory pressures for shotgun loads are somewhat lower than in some other countries. It is not uncommon when taking an American auto overseas to use with "local" ammunition to need to reduce the diameter of the gas port to compensate for the higher pressures.

Most U.S. shotshells are loaded to higher pressures than their European counterparts. Try a Google search using: CIP shotshell pressure

Great read on this forum. I'm primarily into contenders and other pistols and confess to being ignorant to shotguns. A friends grandfather recently passed away and I ended up with a Sako Vixen 222Mag and Mod 12 16ga full choke and nickel steel barrel that was too good of a deal to pass up.

Last weekend I finally got around to getting some Federals for it and after 1st shot found out that it wouldn'd eject the hull. Ignorant as I am, I just thought it was the ammo and got a box of winchester. Same story yesterday. Hence, I'm here trying to figure out what is wrong.
Thanks for the info fellas!

One more quick question. Is there a link to determine when the Model 12 was made?

Thanks,
Joe

There was a good article in past Double Gun Journal on this subject; with pressure data (believe all 12 ga.). For the most part shell length didn't make a lot of difference in the shorter chamber. Usually guns feed ok they don't eject the longer shell. The typical length of a 2-9/16 roll crimp shell (loaded) is 2.38-2.5" oal. A 2-3/4 pie crimp shell is 2.375". Some of the older, better 'smiths converted a lot of M12's and A5's with no problems. I believe at one time Browning would convert your 16ga A5 for a small fee.
C.G.B.

$75 to convert to modern shells.
http://ahlmans.com/shotgunalterations.html

I have an old Ithaca sxs 16 that is a 2 1/2" chambered gun(I had no idea at the time) and I was shooting 2 3/4" shells in off and on for years.

I finally took it dove hunting and after the first shot, the second barrel would not fire right away about 80% of the time.

I was told that at the age it is(made approximately 1902 per research on the serial number)it took 2 1/2" low pressure shells.

I picked some up and my Ithaca has served me well for 6 years now with no second shot problems.

The shells are a little more money ($3 a box) than what I was useing and they work just as well on Pheasent, Dove, Quail, etc.

Get some 2 1/2"s and don't look back - enjoy your old 16 gauge.

Guys,

I did a couple of searchs on google for info regarding this exact question and then thought, I bet this has already been hashed out on AR and sure enough it was.

Mil Gracias...Frank

quote:

Originally posted by loud-n-boomer:
DO DO NOT TRY TO SHOOT 2-3/4 INCH SHELLS IN A GUN WITH SHORTER CHAMBERS. (Yes, I am shouting intentionally!)

100% correct-- it can, and has caused disasters.

Midway U..S.A. has a promo until Sept 30 on brass shotshells in 12, 16, and 20 gauge. Price is $13.99 for 25 (maybe a dollar less) for 25 hulls. I don't know what brand. Otherwise they are $15 or so. However this price comes on their early email notices of specials and is not in their printed flier.

I would sign up for email notices and then make the inquiry and buy at the low promotional price. The you can lathe turn the hulls to very specific lengtths for your ol' crotch gun. There are lots of Chinese small lathes made which in America are sold by Harbor Freight Co. (All their small lathes are produced in one factory supposedly).

Assuming you have some knowledge of these little beasties (you can teach yourself if you read enough and have terdchnical reading experience) you can make hulls of custom lengths and maybe do a few firing pins for hammer guns as well.