Who makes the best 12 ga. chokes? How much of an impact do they make? And are they worth the price?

I do ok with my shotgun as it is, that is I do �only ok� with it at the skeet range. I�m not too worried about busting more clay targets, because I�m primarily interested in the hunting sports. Dove season is approaching fast and then I�ll be into ducks too. I�d like to give myself the best advantage I can to bring home more meat. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Keep practicing on the skeet field. The chokes are minor compared to improving your shooting ability.

I'm not sure I understand your question, do you mean aftermarket screw in chokes, or what? Unless you are doing a lot better than "only ok" on the skeet range, don't worry about buying more chokes, keep practicing. Anyone with normal abilities, with a minimum of coaching, should be able to shoot in at least the 20s in a round of skeet. Otherwise, you are doing something really wrong, or have a problem, such as cross dominance, that you are unaware of. If you are shooting a single barreled gun, use either Improved Cyl or Mod for doves, and Mod, Imp. Mod., or Full for ducks, depending on what kind of shot and what type of hunting you are doing.

Yes, I mean aftermarket chokes. I'm around 17/18 at range. I haven't ever had instructions, and could really use some, I know. I also know I could practice more, shoot more and get better, hopefully.

Didn't know if Brailey or the other chokes make a difference from the factory Benelli.

Briley or other after market choke tubes won't for most normal shooting, unless you have a bad threading job (not parallel to the bore) which is pretty unlikely and easily detectable by patterning.

It is awfully hard to coach someone without being there, but you should be shooting better than that if you are more than about 15 or 16. The most common cause of missing at skeet, once someone has shot it a few time, (and most other shotgun shooting) is probably "peeking", that is lifting your head or not having your head firmly in contact with the butt stock. The second most common cause is not getting enough lead. These are very rough guides and depend on how fast your swing, but you will need about 2 feet of lead on stations 2 and 6, 3 feet on #3 and #5 and 4 feet on #4.

There are various schools of thought on stance at skeet, most real skeet shooters use what is called an open stance, that a line between their feet would be more or less perpendicular to their mounted gun barrel. Since you are shooting it mostly for hunting, I recommend using what I call a field stance, which is more or less like a boxing stance. All this is assuming you are right handed, of coures. That is have your left leg somewhat forward of your right, with your left foot pointing to where you expect to break the target. This stance should be comfortable and balanced. Slightly break your left knee and lean into the gun. Point the gun to where you expect to break the target, which should be in the middle of your comfortable "swing" zone. Then bring the gun back to your call position by turning at the waist. The call position varies for each bird, but should be as close to the spot the bird comes out while still giving you enough time to react as it comes out. In other words, the bird doesn't get a jump on you. This is particularly critical at high 2 which is the most missed bird in skeet. When you call, be ready, don't be thinking about your girlfriend, or the last shot, or anything else. I could go on, but not knowing what you know or do I am likely wasting both our times, good luck and good shooting. What part of Texas are you in?

Gatogordo,

I'm in Houston. I get out to American Shooting Centers for my shotgunning work, but not nearly as much as I would like or need. I haven't had any lessons before or anyone ever really show me for that matter. I am always looking to learn from anyone and everyone that knows. It's hard to improve when you don't know what you did wrong. Even a blind squirl gets an acorn every now and then, it doens't mean he's very good at it. I want to be good.

-tlfw

I've only shot at the Houston Gun Club years back, along with Saeed and a few other reprobates, but there are probably a lot of skeet shooters that could and would help you out if you ask politely. Even tho skeet shooters are genetically inferior to trap shooters. (In my Leghorn voice, "that's a joke, son.")

The real problem is finding someone that knows enough to be a coach and not just spout out a bunch of BS, like "you're behind it, over it, head down, etc" all of which may be true, but the reasons why and the corrections for it are the critical part. There are many more good shots than there are good coaches. I'm not all that good, but I've helped a good many shooters over the years. I always did it for the joy of helping someone learn but some people charge for it. They may be worth it and probably are, but some of the prices I see quoted are doctor's rates. I'd look for some free help first, but if you've got the money a good coach is worth it, without question.

There is a lot of information on skeet shooting on the web, read it, think about it and it will help. Also, when you are learning, it is a physiological fact that when you are thinking about a movement, it will be slower than when you reflexively do it. So if you think, "gotta get 3 feet of lead,.....hmmmm, is that 3 feet, maybe not enough...." you have slowed your swing and will likely shoot behind the bird, even if you have the 3 feet of lead you were thinking about. What I am trying to say is, while you have to learn and think about it, try to do that before the actual shooting moment, shotgun shooting is MOTION and you have to work with "ranges" of lead, not exact spots like in rifle or pistol shooting. You don't aim a shotgun, you point it if you understand the difference.

Unfortunately, I am almost 6 hours away from you so I won't be able to help in person.

I don't know what you are shooting, but shotgun fit is very important and worthy of quite a bit of discussion by itself. Again, as in most shooting sports, there are 2 schools of thought. Some prefer longer and some shorter, I prefer "just right", but I think "just right" is shorter than some would think it is. Comb height is critical but most modern guns will fit most shooters in this area. Pitch is another factor, but is less important, having more to do with felt recoil than actual shooting. If you are of anywhere near normal size, then likely a stock gun will be close. If you are extra short, tall,fat,long armed or necked, etc. it won't be and you'll need to make some adjustments that will likely help your shooting. The most important dimension if length of pull (LOP). I prefer a length of pull that will allow about 1 1/2 to 2 inches between your thumb and your nose with the gun mounted. Shorter and you will likely hit yourself in the nose with heavy loads. This is shorter than some prefer and that is why they have chocolate and vanilla. I think shorter LOPs mount faster, easier and since the gun weight is closer to your CG are a fraction less tiring, which adds up in some competitive events or hot barreled dove shooting. If you use one gun for skeet, doves, ducks, etc it is not a bad idea to have two recoil pads fitted, one longer for when you are shooting in short sleeves and one shorter for the heavy clothes of duck/goose hunting.

Hope this helps, again, good luck.

Maybe some others can chime in with more suggestions, I'm old and forgetful.

Getting proper individual training from a profesional is worth the cost, the learning curve is much shorter that way.Did that myself learned faster and eliminated getting bad habits. The best game for practice is sporting clays ,it was designed for hunting practice. As for chokes the ones on the gun are fine but because of differences in guns chokes and ammo you must pattern the ammo. For example my Benelli chokes run tighter than most. and ammo can vary greatly, a big difference between soft lead, hardened , plated or buffered shot.

mete:

I would repectfully disagree that the best game for learning/practice is sporting clays. It might be the best game for more accomplished shotgunners but it is absolutely not the best for beginners. It costs more, usually at least twice as much,sometimes as much as 4 times as much, and the shots are deliberately designed to be tougher than 90% of the shots found in the field, especially the doubles. The required gun movements as a result of the layout are often more extreme and harder to master than "real" shots. Finally, missing is an accepted practice on sporting clays ranges, a bad mind set for a shooter to start out with. A skeet field will easily duplicate the vast majority of the average shotgunner's shots and is cheaper and repeatable. You go with what you've got, but teaching a beginner on a sporting clays range is not the best solution IMO if a skeet range is available. I'm not a big proponent of skeet as a game, being a semi-retired trap shooter, but for teaching beginners it IS the way to go.

At ASC they have trap, skeet, 5 stand and sporting clays. I have only been on the skeet range so far. They offer lessons by some staff there too. Also the Ash's teach there (Gil and Vic). Although I don't know anything about them other then their reputation which is very high. I can't afford to take lessons from them. My daughter needs to eat. The other staff lesson prices range around $100-$125. That too is a little tuff to swallow, but if I can get some great information and learn what to do, get more clays and birds then I might have to save my pennies. I just can't afford to throw away hard earned money. Investments are what I need. Paying now to have good information last a life time is a good thing, just don't need to pay someone to tell me I missed the bird. I can figure that one out myself. I want to have the cause identified to find the cure.

I appreciate all this help.

-tlfw

[ 08-06-2003, 20:46: Message edited by: tlfw ]

Well, I guess you charge what the market will bear, but even $100 sounds like a lot to me for an hour or so of instruction. Too bad you're so far away, my prices are a lot lower...like beer.

Gatogordo, I see your point but I went the sporting clays way as a beginner, it did work for me.As a typical rifle shooter I wanted no part of trap, wanted to get away from aiming. Skeet seemed too fast (?) for me . Well in the beginning SC was frustrating since if you miss or hit you don't know why. But after a while I actually could hit most of them. You must understand that you won't hit them all. Also in my area the ranges seemed to understand that to help the sport grow they would have to make it not too easy for the experts but not too difficult for the beginners. Anyway I was then able to hit geese , squirrels etc.

tlfw --
Everything Catogordo advises is "on target" (sorry). As to lessons, well, they are great if you can afford them from qualified teachers and I recommend them. Otherwise, just go to the range and shoot. Hang out with the shooters. Ask questions. Make it clear that you are green and anxious for sound advice. Most or at least some of the shooters will freely give it. If you demonstrate your gratitude and are humble and polite, they will take an interest in your progress and coach you more. One thing you will quickly notice is that you will get some conflicting advice from time to time. As Gatogordo said, "That's why there is chocolate and vanilla." Just as there are many differing batting stances among successful baseball players, so are there variations in styles among bird-breaking artists. There are some helpful books and tapes available from Cabela's and others. Try them - there're cheaper than lessons.
Happy shooting.
-- Doc

Gatogordo,

Lessons of for Beer. O.K. Deal! What's your flavor? Travel won't be a problem for me most of the time. I've done it all over this state. I have family near Big Springs. I'll be near Hondo on the 16th and 17th helping out on a friends ranch. I'll be looking at huning the public lands for dove and plan to travel where the hunting will be good. The last several years have been very lean on the action I saw. So...if your serious, I would really appreciate anything you could teach me.

-tlfw

Mete:

Don't get me wrong, shooting sporting clays is certainly fun and challenging and someone can obviously learn how to shoot there, I just think a skeet ranges is better for the beginner for the reasons I've laid out.

Doc Garnett pretty well nailed it, if someone is polite and shows that they want to learn, many very skilled shotgun shooters will try to help them out, either by short tips "I'd start my gun a bit further out, the bird is getting in front of you" or by real hands on instruction. Most real shooters like to see new people getting interested in their sport.

Tlfw:

You were posting as I typed this.

I'm in the NE corner of the state, near where Tx, Ok and Ar join. Unfortunately there are no ranges very close (Maud has one, open on Sundays I believe and Paris has one, I think, but I've never been to either, but that is no big deal, always a first time), but if you're heading in this direction, or are going to gamble (bad idea) in Shreveport, I could possibly meet you somewhere. Shreveport has a range open on Wed, Sat and Sun and I can probably get it opened any day. For business reasons I go over there fairly often. My shooting is a bit rusty, but I can probably still break a few. I've got the machines to build a skeet range on my place, but it is one of the roundtoits that I haven't gotten to yet.

Forget the beer, it is on the house, I'll have to drive home....well, maybe one...Molson Golden will do.

But really, a few minutes with stance, gun positioning and a little practice should get you a long ways down the road. What is critical is being able to self identify why you missed. Then you can self correct. It really isn't hard.
I quit shooting skeet the "regular" way years ago, that is with a mounted gun, I always shoot from a low gun position, but until you become competent at hitting them with a high gun, there is no reason to throw another variable in the mix. Of course, if you become serious about skeet shooting, then you will turn into a toad.

I'm sure you know this, but I'll point out the obvious. Your eyes are the rear sight of a shotgun (have you checked for eye dominance)and to shoot one well you eyes have to be in the same relationship to the barrel(s) every shot. This is why, "peeking" or lifting your head off the stock to get a better view of the target, or possibly not quite getting it back down due to recoil, will inevitably cause a miss. Without going into the details, if you lift your heat you are looking over the end of the barrel and you will shoot over the bird. It is a common mistake, that even good shooters make more often than they would like to admit. That is why stock fit is important, but getting a good head/stock contact is critical. BTW, this doesn't mean crushing your cheek into the stock as some do, just a good firm contact. It doesn't really matter where it is, as long as it is the same for each shot, so that your brain will learn where to point the gun to break the bird. End first lesson:

Gatogordo,

I have to admit I don't get up there too often, mostly south and west. However, I ran by you last month on my way to Tenn. If I'm ever going to be going in that general direction I will give you a shout out.

Seems I may need to give a little info as to my paticulars: Height, 6'1". I don't think I need adjusting on my benelli as I seem to be able to get my eyes down the barrel most of the time (that is when I do what I should). Easier said then done. I don't know if I miss high, low, front, back, if I peek, or if I'm just a lost Son-of-a-Gun. I enjoy the heck out of it, and want to share that with my family too. My daughter asks me every day when we're going bird hunting. Well to be fair to her, she also asks me when we're going lion hunting for scar too! She is way too young to hunt, but by the time she is I want to be a dead eye shot. I have to admit, I have far more fun when birds fall then when they fly right on by.

I do read a lot and try to learn as much as I can. At the skeet range, it has usually been with my brother and the puller. Generally, meaning nearly every time, there is nobody to ask why I missed the clay bird and to get any kind of friendly advice. When we get there and pay for a few rounds, we've always been assigned to a new field by ourselves. Maybe that's common. I've been out there just to watch a few times, even with my daughter, but again, not much instructions going on. People in general are pretty quite. They either hit the target and act happy, or miss and aren't. My brother and I are the in the same boat, we have fun and want to get better. A guy I know is pretty handy with the smooth bore, but he is the first to admit that he can't teach me how, because he doesn't know what to tell me other then get in front where it looks good. He learned as a small boy and can just do it, but doesn't know the "x's" and "o's" as to why. And I appreciate that he's honest enough to not mess with my head.

Shotgun Journal and Pull were on last night on the Outdoor Channel. I watch when I can. Of all the shows Shotgun Journal at least spends a few min. on instructions and gets good camera work. I like to see people shoot, but I don't learn much just seeing clays bust up.

-tlfw