Getting ready for waterfowl for my first time.

I noticed most 3 inch waterfowl loads are 1 1/4 ounce loads. They are fast 1450-1500 FPS.

As a turkey hunter, a 3 inch 12 gauge is a 1 3/4 ounce load or 1 5/8 ounce loads at 1300-1200 FPS.

A load with 1 1/4 ounce of shot is a 2 3/4 inch load; albeit, at 1300-1330 FPS.

There are a few 1 1/2 ounce and 1 3/8 ounce, 3 inch loads. The 1 1/2 ounce load was the 3 inch standard for British 3 inch guns. I am good with that.

Why are there no 1 3/4 ounce, 12 bore, 3 inch loads for waterfowl?

Just asking as more of an intellectual curiosity.

Steel vs lead?

I am looking at non steel alternatives
, but the above holds true for steel for sure.

Rio does have a 1 5/8, 3 inch load, but they appear to be the only one.

Volume...nothing more or less.

Well, also pressure.

I use the Rio 1 3/8 ounce shells but the price you pay with the heavier payloads is reduced velocity.

Look at the velocity of the 1 1/4 or 1 1/8 loads vs the 1 3/8....its an eye opener!

The cheaper shells like the Rios are great over decoys for shots 25 yards and under. But the more expensive loads with flite control technologies which use the wad to control patterns (Federal Black Cloud, Winchester Blind Side etc) will give you more punch when the shots are 40-50 yards. Especially on geese.

Non steel alternatives are great for two kinds of hunters. 1. those with unlimted funds. 2. Hunters who don't hunt much.

Cheap steel loads like Kent, Rio, WInchester Expert, Fiocchi etc are about .36 to about .54 a shot depending on where you buy them and what time of year. Sept-Jan you'll pay top dollar.

Good shells with some tech built into them are about $160-220 a flat again depending on where you buy them. Black Cloud Heavy Metal etc... About .88to 1.00 a shot.

The bismuth and tngsten lead alternatives are about $25-40 for a box of ten shells. So figure $2.5-4 bucks a pop. LOL

I foundWinchester had an 1 5/8 ounce 3 inch load at 1200 FPS, but good luck finding that one. I do not care about velo as much as payload.

Respectfully, I will never, never, shoot steel. We played around with it this year during turkey season. The guns I want to use are not recommended for steel or harder tungsten-iron alloy. My 10 gauge can.

I will spend 50 bucks for rifle ammo, look at how much brass alone cost is for the 35 Whalen if you want to reload, I have no issue spending 35 bucks for 10 shotgun rounds. I shoot at least 100 rounds through my hunting rifles every year for that year. (Not all of them, just the 2 or 3 I am going to use that year).

Even a dyi elk hunt out west will cost you 1500 dollars after truck rental and hotel. You will need to stay in a hotel at least once on a 24 hour solo drive. My share in a deer lease $1k. I do not see in the scheme of hunting 270 dollars for a case of shotgun shells as being expensive. That is what I paid for a case of Tungsten Matrix. I would not call that expensive at 350.00.

I just do not get why the lack of shot in these tungsten and bismuth loads compared to lead; even an 1 3/8 loads is a 2 3/4 inch load.

A 10 gauge, 3 1/2 inch load is 2 ounces. That is what I killed turkeys with the last 3 seasons. Hevi-shot, 10 gauge 3 1/2 loads are 1 3/4 ounce loads. That is a 12 gauge, 3 inch load. I am not paying for a 12 gauge load.

One would think a number 2 or number 4 pellet is a number 2, or number 4, or number 5 pellet is a certain size regardless of material, so one should be able to match payloads. I am learning that these pellets are slightly larger or small than the lead control.

I guess with steel you need to compensate for its lack of density with speed, so one reduces payload to get 1450-1500 FPS. But a BB that is less or equal dense to a No 2 pellet, and the increase in drag than even a No.1 pellet will loose about 200 FPS at 35 yards according to controlled chrono test reported by Tim Roster.

Anyone can shoot what they want. I only care for me. For me, I will not shoot steel.

7 1/2 Highbrass, lead at 1 1/4 ounce load on head shots works better than No.4 shot steel on turkeys at 43 to 45 yards, at least with our guns and chokes. I guess we should have used BB, but shot larger than No 4 shot is illegal in KY for turkeys. These steel loads were Hevi Steel.

If you want to handload bismuth, lots of recipes for 1.75 Oz of shot.

Essentially, it’s a numbers game. Most waterfowl hunters shoot a lot compared to other hunting sports.

The heavier than steel alternatives are all more expensive. Trying to sell a box of shells for $70 doesn’t work real well, so folks like Kent and the various guys selling tungsten drop the count to 10 shells in a box.

You might also look at Boss shells- they make plated bismuth loads- if you are looking for bismuth shells. They don’t sell to middlemen. They tend to have some options, so maybe they have what you want.

I load my own, so I’m not really much driven by the factory market anymore.

Even the reloader guys are pushing light payload recipes nowdays.

All hevisteel is is like a 1/4 Oz bismuth added to a steel shell. Useless, imo.

Back in the days of shooting waterfowl with lead the VAST majority of shooters used 2 3/4" shells---1 1/8 or 1 1/4. 5 or 6 shot for ducks. 2 or 4 for geese. The serious goose hunters would use 3" shells. There was no such thing as 3.5" shells during the lead era.

Steel looses velocity very quickly so its important to get it moving fast to retain any kind of killing power at extended ranges. Big loads don't help at 40-50 yards but fast loads do.

I'll shoot 2 flats a year and have no trouble killing ducks with steel even at 40-50 yards with the right shells. I really like Hevi brand loads followed closely by black clouds.

I personally seen no performance advantage for the tungsten/bismuth shells except in guns that can't handle steel. And mine can.

For me its $300 for 2 flats of good quality shells vs $800-1,000 for the tungsten/bismuth. Add that to a $2,500 duck club fee, $300 in licenses, $2,000 a year in associated duck house expenses like propane, water electricity, taxes, insurance etc $200 in gas every time I drive to Arkansas and back which is about 18 times a season....Vet bills, food, etc for the Labrador
$400 for a new pair of waders every other year. etc etc etc...lol

There are about 70 members in my club. Last year I can't recall sharing a blind with anyone using bismuth or tungsten. And on a regular basis I can't recall more than 1 or 2 over the years that used the expensive shells. YMMV

The tungsten-iron stuff if priced out to a case would be up there, but I am just not seeing those prices.

A Flat will be 200-250 rounds right?

I paid 270 for a case (200 rounds) of Kent Tungsten Matrix. I bought the first hundred then turned around and bought the second. These are 1 1/2 ounce loads. I just wonder why nothing is a 1 3/4 or an 1 5/8 which is what an American 3 inch 12 gauge had been.

The English 3 inch gun was proofed around an 1 1/2 load.

Winchester did (maybe still does) make a 1 5/8, 3 inch load. But, I can’t find any. A bit brittle at 97 Bismuth, 3 percent Tin and small for geese at only No. 5 shot.

So, the question remains. Why with non steel, lead alternatives does everyone load at most 1 1/2 ounces in a 3 inch 12. Most are 1 1/4 and 1 3/8 loads which are 2 3/4 inch loads being sold in a 3 inch case.

I did look at Boss. Interesting stuff 280-290 for 200 rounds. The 10 gauge loads are legit with 2 1/6 ounce of shot. Those are out of stock. However, in 12 inch, 3 inch 1 3/8 and 1 1/2 ounce loads. They do have a lot of 1 1/2 ounce loads.

Thanks for the suggestion. I ordered a case of 3 inch, 1 1/2 ounce, No 3, 12 gauge 20o rounds-295.

That gives me 400 rounds for 520. I paid no shipping.

I only mention 3 1/2 shell in the context of the 10 gauge which like the 12 is loaded with a payload a good deal smaller than the lead standard by Hevi-Shot ( 1 3/4 ounces instead of 2 ounces).

The tungsten-iron stuff would be up there in cost. But, I have no use for that. I am not using an 1 3/4 ounce (12 gauge load) in my 10 gauge. I an looking at you Hevi-Shot. Nor, will I use pour tungsten-iron in my 3 inch double. They say my 2005, Merkel can shoot smaller 4 and under Tungsten-Iron just fine. They being Merkel USA. I do not know. They do not want you shooting steel on it, and tungsten-iron is harder than steel.

There is a little practical (non-I wonder why to this). I am trying to find non lead alternatives to for my double(s) and equal payload for my 10 gauge.

I have a lot of lead/copper plated shells to last more than a few turkey seasons, but the use of lead is dying. Lead cannot be used on public land in Illinois, Fed public lands out west, England has all but banned it with individual grounds going ahead and mandating its non use. The Feds tomorrow could ban lead for doves as it is a migratory bird.

I am going to call Boss up and beg them to make me a case of 10 gauge No4 shot at 2 1/16 ounces that should be over 300 pellets for Turkey.

I will let you know how that goes/cost?

RST makes low pressure Bismuth loads for my older, lighter proof doubles.


On another note, I got the reclining chair for my hillbilly lay back blind as you suggested and the long pole/hook. Thanks for that. I am going to wrap the metal in camp duck tape and black zip tie brush to it.

Steel takes up more space.

One needs the velocity to make steel work well.

More weight less velocity.

During the years between high velocity steel, non toxic alternatives.

I basically gave up water fowl hunting.

Because of the number of wounded birds.

Then hi-velocity steel came along and other non-toxic loads.

Bismuth works well easy to load, tungsten works even better but a PITA to reload.

But both can be prohibited cost wise.

Then I discovered the Winchester expert line at 1550fps.

Price was right and it kills very well.

Up until all this foolishness with ammo pricing. Catch after season sales it could be down right cheap.

It is what I use 98 percent of the time for water fowl.

When I want to shoot one of my doubles I use handloaded bismuth.

If I feel the need to really hammer something I well use some tungsten.

Kent used to make heavier loads for their tungsten matrix shells. More expense, and not as many folks brought them.

I really liked them, but finding them was a pain.

Winchester's involvement with bismuth was quite a while ago. Anything you could find from them would be very old manufacture. Those shells didn't pattern all that well, and are probably they older, more brittle alloy.

As to 1.75 bismuth loads- in a 12 ga 3" hull- That is probably pushing the envelope a bit. When I load 3" bismuth shells, I will use a 1 7/8 lead shot bushing, and it gives amost a 1 5/8 drop of bismuth shot (with #2). Bismuth is a bit prone to shattering if not alloyed right, and I tend to baby it a bit and that results in better patterns and better on bird performance. If you want 1.75 oz of bismuth, you are probably going to a 3.5" hull.

In my mind there are 2 major reasons to use bismuth over steel or tungsten- one is that it is safe for any gun that can shoot lead, and 2 is that it won't shatter your dental work like steel or tungsten can.

Bismuth is about as effective as lead shot on game.

Steel requires a lot more velocity to get the same energy levels, and will lose energy very quickly, and even if it has energy, the lack of pellet malleability tends to make it less effective a killer. On the positive side, it is much easier to get effective patterns with.

Tungsten/iron or pure tungsten has more density (energy) than lead, but malleability like steel, and WILL wreck gun barrels. It is not a matter of if you do everything right, you won't, its a matter of if you do everything right it slows the progression. It does pattern beautifully if you get good quality pellets- in fact, perhaps too tight.

However, in order to use tungsten, you need even thicker and stiffer wads than even steel shot. So a fair amount of the difference you see in payload with tungsten vs. lead is that you have a much thicker and larger shotcup than you do in lead loads. While (pure) tungsten is a third more dense than lead, your usable shell space is less than the lead shell as well as dealing with the money end of it. If you have shot pure TSS in a heavy shot load, it tends to spread like a slug, and the pattern is too dense for most uses.

For turkey, it seems everyone either uses lead or tungsten. I don't see why #6 bismuth wouldn't work reasonably well, but it runs out of steam before the TSS stuff does, so the turkey guys I know all use TSS in a 20 or .410 nowdays.

Tungsten is also a much different cat as far as internal ballistics than steel or lead/bismuth. Shooting a heavy load through a noncompliant wad will tend to give more pressure...

At some point down the road, I suspect you will see slower velocity tungsten shells; but I doubt you will see much heavy loadings because the patterning of the stuff makes that a waste- so more recoil, more wear on your gun, and giblets for a bird when you hit it. It works with turkey because you shoot them in the head, and don't eat the head...

Bismuth, you will see "close" equivalency to lead loads, but not quite, and with modern wads, etc, you don't need as much shot to keep a killing pattern for dense shot.

Now, I do agree that your ammo is probably the least of your expenses for hunting... but some folks are unwilling to spend what it costs to use the more dense than steel nontoxics, and steel shells are becoming less expensive, relative to lead, so it does have a logic to it.

Winchester had 1 5/8 bismuth loads with the Xtended Range line up just two years ago. It used the shot buffer of the XR Pheasant line. Does not matter when they had them. There is no finding them now.

I did not buy any because I had no desire to hunt waterfowl nor concerns of lead dying.

I know only one person who is using tungsten on Turkeys. He is not going to use it next year feeling it penetrated, but did not smack the Tom like copper plated lead. He did not like pellets exiting the bird with potential to kill other birds. We are only allowed 1 a day and 2 total.

Other than him, I do not know anyone except on YouTube shooting Tungsten at turkeys. Everyone is using lead. I prefer copper plated lead. If Boss and I can come to terms on a case of 10 Hague at 2 1/16 ounces that is what I will use next year. If not, No. 5, Winchester Copper plated lead at the true 1 3/4 for the Merkel.

I bet those black box Winchester Xtended Range bismuth loads are 97 bismuth and 3 percent tin meaning brittle. I love the reported payload at 1 5/8 ounces m.

I don’t think the potential brittleness of the Winchester load matters for a turkey head or 3 pound bird. I just can’t find them.

Thanks for the look up for Boss, better than most in payload size and more shot size.

quote:

I know only one person who is using tungsten on Turkeys. He is not going to use it next year feeling it penetrated, but did not smack the Tom like copper plated lead.

I use tungsten no. 4s as a follow up shot if needed. I have use it on several as the first shot. It hits them hard.


Over penetration really never seen it happen with body hits.

The number of pellets missing your target is far more of a problem. With killing near by birds then over penetration well ever be.

On head shots the few pellets in the head and neck. Compared to the hundreds missing.

A good turkey load of copper plated 6's 5's work well also.

Yeap, he shot threw a bird holding low on the neck chest to prevent killing a second bird who’s is illegal in KY. One a day state.

Still nearly got the second as the shot went clean through. I do not know the size. He shoots tungsten-iron at geese and ducks, so I guess it was that. I can ask.

I love copper plated No5 (lead). I even killed coyotes with it.

quote:

Yeap, he shot threw a bird holding low on the neck chest to prevent killing a second bird who’s is illegal in KY. One a day state.

So you are telling me he had a 100 percent pattern onto the bird he fired at.

I am telling you he shot through a bird and would have killed a second if they stacked up. I was not there for the shot, but saw the carcass, and shot holes showing exited pellets at the body cavity base of neck and chest meet.

I think I have figured out my own question after staring at this thing for a few days. Bismuth 94 and 6 tin or 97 and 3 has a density of 9.6 and 9 some else. Lead has a density of 11.3, so you are loosing space per shot column in the shell.

Also, an interesting observation. Michael McIntosh at page 221 that Bo Whoop was 3 inch Super Fox with 3 inch Chambers, regulated for the Super X, No.4 copper plated lead, 1 3/8 ounce load.

So these 3 inch, 1 3/8 loads, and 1 1/2 loads being the English proof, are in better company than I thought.

One final note, Page 218 states the Super Fox was first proofed with the 1 7/8 ounce shot, 7 1/2 dram.’x English Proof load and a second time with an 1 3/4 ounce shot with smokeless powder at 14,000 pounds of pressure. The unit of measurement being CUP or PSI is not given.

Next time done limey states running their mouth about USA guns are not proofed, English guns are better and have National proof to show it. Please, inform him about how a Super Fox was proofed.

I think the 1 3/8 load was a 2.75 shell.

While the gun was chambered for 3”, and proofed for the same, regulation (bringing both barrels POI to the same point) is different. Essentially, Buckingham was shooting mostly 1 3/8 loads, and wanted both barrels to center that load the same.

Yes, the density is part of the reason (but you should be able to get a 1 3/4 load with bismuth physically in to a 3” 12 ga hull, I’ve seen 2 Oz 3” 12 ga loads in the past).

I agree a 1 3/8 ounce load all my life has been a 2 3/4 inch case, but he directly cited the load as being a 3 inch case load twice from Nash. He has pictures of a 3 inch Super X load in color but you can’t see the payloads

I went back and read-read the passages. Page 221 does say “three inch shells and regulated for Nash’s favorite Super X laid of 4 drams, 1 3/8 ounces of No.4 coppered shot.”

Page 226 has a photocopy of a hand written letter from Buckingham signed in pencil to the then owner of Super Fox SN 30069. The letter states, “We’ll have to turn it loose this season with some of my favorite 4–I, 3.8th #4’s-coppered. This letter refers specifically to Bo Whoop II.

The picture of the 3 inch Western cartilage is on Page 228 with a Fox Sterlingworth Wildfowl. The payload cannot be read. The photo is beautiful in color.