Guys,

I've always been led to believe the average lop
for a rifle is 13 1/2" to 13 5/8" for a 5'10"
guy.(I'm 5'10" tall.)

Most shotguns have a length of pull of at least 14 1/4"? Why the difference?

Thanks,

Don

Hi Don,

In general shotgun LOP is an inch longer than a rifle LOP for the same person. The reason is a shotgun is pointed not aimed. An exception is a double rifle which follows a shotgun LOP b/c the double is pointed in theory.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Hi Don,

In general shotgun LOP is an inch longer than a rifle LOP for the same person. The reason is a shotgun is pointed not aimed. An exception is a double rifle which follows a shotgun LOP b/c the double is pointed in theory.

Hmmmm, how does LOP make pointing easier than aiming?

I'd suggest that it is easy to cut some off to make it fit a shorter or chunkier person but much more difficult to add some when most shotguns already have recoil pads on them. For me, I prefer a relatively short LOP on a shotgun, but there are many excellent shooters who go the other way........

Getting fitted for a custom shotgun stock involves the use of a 'try gun' where all the dimensions are adjustable. Width of shoulders, length of neck and arms etc are all considered. That's the best way.
Some shotguns have an adjustment for the trigger , moving it backward or forward.Gun companies refer to this as adjustable LOP ! NO !! This is adjustable trigger reach ! [Distance between grip and trigger]

Hello Gatogordo,

The longer length of pull stretches the shooter out to point and swing as opposed to support a deliberate aim.

Good question.

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
Getting fitted for a custom shotgun stock involves the use of a 'try gun' where all the dimensions are adjustable. Width of shoulders, length of neck and arms etc are all considered. That's the best way.
Some shotguns have an adjustment for the trigger , moving it backward or forward.Gun companies refer to this as adjustable LOP ! NO !! This is adjustable trigger reach ! [Distance between grip and trigger]

Reinhart Fajen determined the length of pull for us many moons ago. His method has wide support as being the most accurate and consistent.

L.O.P. = The distance from the rear of the trigger guard bow to the end of the butt at the centerline plus 1/2". (Some measure from the trigger centerline to the center of the butt.)

Adjust the trigger position all you want. Under Mr. Fajen's method you get 1/2" from the rear of the bow regardless of where you put it!

Has worked well for me over the last 50 years!

I have all my shotguns reduced to a 13 1/2"
length of pull. I raise my gun and shoot it the same as I would a rifle!
The longer shotgun L.O.P. hangs up on my hunting vest or jacket.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Hello Gatogordo,

The longer length of pull stretches the shooter out to point and swing as opposed to support a deliberate aim.

Good question.

Please explain how being "streteched out" allows one to point and swing any better than having the wt of the shotgun closer to your center of gravity? IMO the "point" vs "aim" is certainly valid but it is simply a matte of mentally changing gears, not physical differences.

The longer LOP locks my shooting position better and aids staying in the shot and swing thru.

Where your cheek is on the comb determines your length of pull generally. If the stock is too short (LOP) your thumb will bloody your nose when you shoot. If the stock is too long, then the recoil pad will hang up in your shirt when mounting the gun from the low gun position.

You want your cheek to be centered on the comb after the mount is completed.

Most shotgun shooters' stocks are way too short; they have been used to shooting factory length shotguns with short LOP's. When your stock fits, it makes shooting a pleasure.

Amazing how few bloody noses I've ever seen among shotgun shooters, especially compared to the numbers of cut eyebrows of some rifle shooters. In fact, I can think of no, as in zero, reason why the LOP of a shotgun should be any longer than the distance required not to drive your thumb into your nose with the heaviest loads, which is usually about 2 inches or a bit less between the rear of your thumb and the bridge of your nose, depending on your grip. Shorter LOP allows faster mounting with ANY system, even the extend and retract that some of the English teach. It has the wt/CG/ balance point of the shotgun closer to the body, which makes it closer to the bodies CG, which makes for less fatigue and easier and faster handling......other than those physical facts I guess the LOP can be anything anyone wants it to be if they can still reach the triggers.

quote:

Please explain how being "streteched out" allows one to point and swing any better than having the wt of the shotgun closer to your center of gravity? IMO the "point" vs "aim" is certainly valid but it is simply a matte of mentally changing gears, not physical differences

Buliwyf is correct.

But he is correct with regards to the leading hand on the forend. It should be extended out on the forend toward the muzzle as far as possible and still be comfortable. This is because you point with that hand and shotgunning is pointing. You don't point with your elbow bent and your pointing hand 4" in front of your face. It follows that you shouldn't put your leading hand just in front of the receiver, but as far out in front of it as possible.

And yes, Gatorado, the LOP should be long enough to eliminate your nose getting kicked. Anything longer would be personal preference.







See what my nose looked like after a couple of days in Argentina? We were shooting factory guns with factory LOP's. I know that the whole mug is ugly, but look at that scabbed nose! I even had a slip-on pad on but it still wasn't long enough!

Ouch

I suppose it is a matter of semantics but IMO one doesn't POINT a shotgun with your hand, you POINT with your eyes, you simple control the fore end with you hand. One also doesn't shot a shotgun with his arms, they are simply there to hold it and make minute last minute corrections. One shoots a shotgun with his waist and shoulders. I can give you a prime example of a one armed gunsmith, now deceased, who was from the Monroe, La area. He was a deadly shot, one of the first they called upon for expensive retreiver trials when the bird had to be killed RIGHT THERE in that EXACT SPOT, and he very rarely missed. He was equally deadly on the skeet range or dove fields. Amazing how he did all that POINTING one armed.

I shot 4000 shells the first day I was on a dove field in Argentina in the early 80s, using a Winchester 101 with a 13 5/8 inch LOP, which put the back of my thumb about 1 3/4 inches from my nose. Never touched it.

As far as your particular nose goes, it appears that you have sloping shoulders and a somewhat long neck while being reasonably skinny.....all that would indicate a longer LOP being needed, but your body build is more the exception than the rule.

Thanks for calling me "skinny". It doesn't look that way when I look in the mirror!

My LOP on my Gold is 15 7/8"

Another few other things that affect length of pull. Stance, you lean into shotguns more then rifles(Of coarse big bore rifles are different). You don't need to be able to reach a bolt handle on most shotguns.

As`an old (retired) shotgunner I have enjoyed reading the obviously informed discussion between Gatogordo and Bullwyf. (BTW, my compliments to you both for vigorously disagreeing without descending to simply an exchange of insults) Posing a question to you both - Are you not,perhaps, arguing at cross purposes? What, exactly is the function of LOP in relation to the overall "fit" of a shotgun? (keeping in mind that most shotgunners adapt themselves to the vagaries of the shotgun and I also ask you to keep in mind that the vast majority of us never get to use a "custom fitted" shotgun -and that most of us have measured LOP by putting the shotgun in the crook of the elbow) So - to get to the end of my longwinded question - exactly how important is LOP where shotguns are concerned?

quote:

Originally posted by Gerrypeters375:
As`an old (retired) shotgunner I have enjoyed reading the obviously informed discussion between Gatogordo and Bullwyf. (BTW, my compliments to you both for vigorously disagreeing without descending to simply an exchange of insults) Posing a question to you both - Are you not,perhaps, arguing at cross purposes? What, exactly is the function of LOP in relation to the overall "fit" of a shotgun? (keeping in mind that most shotgunners adapt themselves to the vagaries of the shotgun and I also ask you to keep in mind that the vast majority of us never get to use a "custom fitted" shotgun -and that most of us have measured LOP by putting the shotgun in the crook of the elbow) So - to get to the end of my longwinded question - exactly how important is LOP where shotguns are concerned?

Shotgun fit is critical!

Longer LOP brings the stock to the cheak more naturally than a shorter LOP, so long as LOP is within reason. This makes adhering to the imperative of the forward hand pointing or leading the barrels in conjunction with the eye easier.

Missing high is frequent, and it is caused by too short a stock allowing one to raise his head. Bad enough on targets but a really common error on game.

Longer LOP also reduces felt recoil.

If the gun is snagging on clothing, change the pad to a Sporting Clays pad with a hard heel insert before shortening the stock.

JPK

JPK

I fired shotguns for the better part of near 60 years and understand the principles you have set forth - However the fact remains that most shotgunners shooting at flying birds and not clay targets do not use custom fitted shotguns - and, nonetheless, seem to do quite well -so, I repeat -what, exactly, is so important about LOP? Your comments are certainly useful to anyone but couldn't it be argued that "shooting high" has as much to do with drop at the heel as with LOP? (A lot of shotgunners do hunch down in handling how they mount -and, yes, I certainly agree with you about how they snag the butt on clothing in bringing up the shotgun -but doesn't that have as much to do with how the shotgun is brought up? (Pushing the shotgun up and out and then back to the shoulder as distinct from a panicked straight up pull to the shoulder)

I want to hasten to say that I'm not looking to say you are wrong. I happen to feel that I was educated by your post. I'm just saying that don't most practical shotgun shooters handle LOP with the simple "crook of the elbow" test -and that drop at the heel is the real culprit in being fitted to a shotgun? Just asking.

quote:

Originally posted by Don Slater:
L.O.P. = The distance from the rear of the trigger guard bow to the end of the butt at the centerline plus 1/2". (Some measure from the trigger centerline to the center of the butt.)

There you have the difference; Fajen's way and the way most everyone measures shotgun LOP.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Don Slater:
L.O.P. = The distance from the rear of the trigger guard bow to the end of the butt at the centerline plus 1/2". (Some measure from the trigger centerline to the center of the butt.)

I'm aware of the "other" way, Dave. I find that the measurement from the trigger centerline to the rear of the guard bow is almost always 1/2" when the trigger is properly set inside the bow.
(On rifles)(I usually make or modify my own trigger levers too.)

I've made about 20 rifle stocks over the last 40 years as a hobby and have mostly used the Fajen method, however, I have found no more than a maximum of 1/16" difference between the measuring methods. (On rifles)

I do confess, however, that shotguns are a different matter, and I know little about them except that the late, great Lenard Brownell
used the same measurements on rifles and shotguns? His theory was that a well-fitting rifle fit and handled pretty much like a shotgun.

My original post was to see if I could find out why there was such a difference in LOP between rifles and shotguns not to argue with the opinions/knowledge of others.

The measuring method I use is a moot point on my rifle stocks since I only work on my own! And they ALL fit ME well! Most of my stock measurements have come from the NRA book of gunsmithing. Older articles to be sure, but I trust the preachments of the top-notch professionals who originally wrote them. Men like Keith Stegall and Len Brownell. Other info I got from the DBI book on RIFLESMITHING,
much of which can be attributed to Sterling Davenport. Books by Monte Kennedy also contributed to what little I know.

No, my work does not mirror the quality of those from whom I learned, but their methods work well for me! My work IS, however, equal to, and mostly better than, any factory rifle I've ever seen! (And definately better than some I have seen that call themselves.... professionals?)

Since I only work on my own guns, arguements about methods seem a waste of time. I simply want to know what others do, and why.

quote:

Longer LOP brings the stock to the cheak more naturally than a shorter LOP, so long as LOP is within reason. This makes adhering to the imperative of the forward hand pointing or leading the barrels in conjunction with the eye easier.

Missing high is frequent, and it is caused by too short a stock allowing one to raise his head. Bad enough on targets but a really common error on game.

Longer LOP also reduces felt recoil.

Excuse me! Absolutely nothing you've said has any basis in fact except for the minor, and I'm sure unintended, fact that a longer LOP will have a stock that weighs a few ounces more than a shorter LOP stock, more wt = less recoil.

In fact, the only advantage to a longer than necessary LOP is to get the wt of the shotgun farther out in front of the shooter. This helps maintain swing for some shooters (basically the same logic applies to longer barrels and is why clays and other similar games barrels have gotten longer in the last couple of decades) and is probably why some target shooters like a longer than normal LOP. These are shooters that don't have to mount their gun in the process of shooting, such as trap or international trap shooters. OTOH for most hunting situations it can only be a handicap.

Most people don't use the push out, pull in motion for mounting a shotgun and, even if they do, there is no question that it is slower than a straight, raise the gun to your shoulder "normal" mount.

Okay I am sticking my 2 cents in and hope it helps a little. The main difference between a rifle stock and a shotgun stock is that on a shotgun the stock in actuality acts as the rear sight. What I mean by this is that it is imperitive to always have your head and face in the same position each time you mount and shoot a shotgun more so than a rifle because with a rifle you adjust to the sigts or scope and with a shotgun your position of you face and head determine where you are going to shoot. Get to far forward and your seeing a lot of rib and you will most likely shoot high to far back on the comb and you are quite possibly seeing the back ot the reciever and will most likely shoot low. There are many other factors to consider, Cast on or off Monter Carlo comb straight stock or reverse drop (where the heel is actually slightly higher than the conb) Pitch and of course lenght of pull(beating up your nose has never helped anyone hit more targets). All of these factor in to a well fitted shotgun stock and if you look into some of the old time gunsmiths such as Wundhammer,G&H, and others and pich up one of their rifles it will instantly become obvious that attenion to these details make the rifle point like a shotgun. And pointing is really what it is all about. The ability of the hands to follow the eyes without any thought is what makes a shotgun feel just right. And of course weight and balance play an equally critical role.

Hope this helps some

Michael J

Gatogordo:

Maybe "most people" in your area (where none of your bird hunting bears any resemblance to Eastern ruffed grouse hunting) don't use a push out and pull back method in mounting a shotgun but I can assure you that ruff hunters dressed for November and December weather in the NE do. Slower? While I admit that snap shots at ruffed grouse (practically a routine description of grouse hunting in the NE)must be very quick, there is also a certain built in reflex in bringing up the shotgun so I just don't see it as slower. (I have seen many a newcomer to ruffs who got all flustered at the first rise he had ever experienced from a ruff and I don't see where the "straight up" approach helped him all that much!)

It is a slower mounting motion, you can't make a longer distance traveled and two motions as fast as one with a shorten distance to cover to your shoulder, and that's a fact. Whether that very small timing difference would make a difference in the field is debatable.

I've hunted and shot the fabled ruffed grouse several times and I thought they were pretty easy (they're fairly slow and they're fairly large, how tough can that be), especially compared to woodcock in heavy Louisiana cover, or, god forbid, downwind rock pigeons which are exponentially harder than grouse. Finally, if all those people in your area use the in and out motion, they should try shortening their LOP, it will help their shooting. Most people don't shorten their LOP for cold weather clothing/shooting, that's a mistake, or, you can operate on my method which is I start with it relatively short and it still works for heavier clothes.

The whole "in and out" thing goes back to Marine Corps rifle training of years back, has no relevance to shooting a shotgun but some people don't seem to understand that.

Gatogordo:

You kind of disappoint me because I otherwise admire your views about shotguns. Some of my mother's people were from Texas (Mundy,north of Waco) so I am not going to level down on you. At first I read your post about ruffed grouse in the NE being "easy" and was ready to tee off on you because you as much as called me a liar. I'll let that go and conclude that you must have hunted ruffs in the NE in early season- or under conditions that NE hunters wouldn't recognize. (It was the NE, wasn't it? I mean NY,CT,NH,VT,ME) What got me was your reference to woodcock as a game bird. We had natives on our property year after year and none of the family would have dreamed of shooting them. They swirled up through the alders and would have been ridiculously easy to shoot. We never thought of them as gamebirds - like quail were also ridiculously easy to shoot -and never were shot in my neck of the woods when we had them. They were wiped out by "visiting hunters". (OK, I got off my shots at you -now tell me as a man whose opinions I respect about shotguns and getting away from a fight - how important is the LOP compared to drop at heel?)