A nice simple one I hope chaps, bearing in mind I know nothing about them, please recommend a good, working pump action shotgun in 12 bore for game and clays.

I'm not to fussed about modern or classic, new or second hand or even how it looks particularly, I am interested in good ergonomics, handling and reliability.

Also, please feel free to be as technical as you like in explaining your recommendation, I enjoy learning about new mechanisms and so on.

With thanks,

GH

I've always been impressed with how smooth the Browning BPS functions. I have a Remington 870 which is great but not as slick. The Ithica model 32? is great as well.

Model 12 Winchester...in practiced hands, quicker than an auto!

Pump shotguns are interesting.
I am partial to those having steel receivers though it means little strength wise.

I find the bottom load - bottom eject guns (Several old Remington models, Ithaca 37 and Browning BPS)to be clumsy loading when used in a sport where there is a lot of shooting - meaning a lot of loading. For slow paced shooting they would be fine. However lefties like them and I am right handed.

I have owned a Winchester 1200 which is a very strong design with an aluminum receiver. The ejector was set up for 3" rounds even though my gun was 2 3/4" chambered. I sometimes short stroked this gun resulting in a hang up. Other than that and the ordinary wood it was a solid though cheap looking design.

Weatherby pedaled a pump at one time and I think it was pretty good but they are not common.

I think the Japanese made Howa shotguns made for Smith & Wesson are excellent and the receivers are steel.

Thanks lads, I'll have a look around and see what I can find.

Sadly pump guns are not very common over here.

The queen of pump shotguns is the Winchester Model 12 and if you want a .410 it is a Win Model 42. Either one of these will set you back around $1000 give or take a little..

Probably the most common American made pump is the Remington 870 in versions that are finished like industrial tools to those with reasonably nice checkering on real walnut. The nicer versions are called the Wingmaster.

Best buy is a vintage Remington 870. Many were made and they are common in pawn shops at bargain prices. Function wise, they are fool proof.

Best pump shotgun of all time is the Remington 31, the "ball bearing" pump.

There are many- the best I have found for function,cost,ease of servicing, etc. is the Remington 870. I agree find a vintage 870 or just a newer used one- the cost will be reasonable!

My own favorites are the Winchester Model 12, Browning BPS or Ithaca Model 37, all John Browning designs and patents. I personally prefer and love the bottom load and ejection. But that's my own personal like and opinion. Good luck with your decision.

The Ithica model 37 feather lite is 2 of the 3 pump shot guns I own. the other is a 870 slug gun only because I could not afford a deer slayer when I was going to buy a slug gun.

I my self like the bottom eject. since i reload I find that having the huills land at my feet make them so much nicer to pick up.

Al

Find an older Remington 870 Wingmaster.

Very, very slick action.

Winchester model 97.

Class, excellent handling and really fast.

I own them all and the 97 does best for me!

If you look around, you can normally pick up a used Rem. 870 Wingmaster for about the same price as a new 870 Express. The Wingmaster is a much nicer and smoother gun. Go with the Wingmaster. I have three Wingmasters and won't own an Express.

Remember guys, you're talking to a guy who lives in Blighty. What you can or can't find at the local gun show, and for how much, doesn't really have much bearing on what he'll be able to lay his hands on in London and what he'll have to pay for it.

I agree though with the recommendation for the Remington M870. I've heard rumors that Remington's pump gun had suffered from spotty QC what with the introduction of cost-cutting measures like MIM parts, but it turns out those rumors seem to originate with Browning BPS fans.

They still make a regular production trap model of the M870, and a lot of shooters regularly put thousands of rounds a year through them. If they couldn't take it and were unreliable we would have heard by now.

I also have a soft spot for the Ithaca M37. But far more experience w/the ubiquitous M870.

What you probably don't want to mess with is something like a Winchester M12. It's been out of regular production for going on 50 years.

I know everyone with their "perfect repeaters" are going to hate me for saying that. But if I were in England and in the unlikely event my shotgun developed a problem and I needed replacement parts, I believe it'd be to my advantage that it's currently in production.

CFS,
That is good advice except for one thing.
When it comes to shotguns the Brits are the least practical people on earth. Their idea of a shotgun is one made once piece at a time by the snob trade in London.

Once again thanks you for your thoughtful posts.

I have no objection to spending time looking for something special, the way to do it in the UK is to get an idea of what you want, haunt the auctions and get a tame gunsmith to put the feelers out for you.

I've been doing a fair bit of research on the various guns mentioned and really like the Winchester model 12 and Ithica model 37. Actually I really like the idea of the Remington ball bearing gun but I'm not holding out much hope of finding one...

I have a gunmaker friend ( SR will be pleased to know he's ex-Boss and Churchill's ) but he's a good lad and will make anything for anything pretty reasonably.

I also feel like I should note that I have very catholic taste in guns. I own and appreciate my 94 year old boxlock, hand made under gaslight by fourth generation Birmingham craftsmen, for it's handling and grace as much as I appreciate my USSR era Baikal, slapped together by a bunch of resentful communists, for it's singularity of purpose and toughness.

I handled a new 870 but agree with SR that alloy receivers are the work of the devil. Finding a good second hand one of the right era may take some time. The Ithica looks promising and there are a few about but the Winchester is predictably hard to find.

Makes me want it for some reason.....

For me the Win. Mod. 12 has always been my "go to" shotgun for hunting and trap. Never had any breakage in lots of rounds, but it can happen and in your location would be a problem.
Shot my first TC 870(trap) in early 60's and even then it was met with some resistance by old hand shooters. Trigger group looked like it was made from tin cans and aluminum. However the 870 is still going today and absolutely dependable. You can take it apart in couple minutes and clean as needed for the design is pure simplicity. 870 is pretty much standard issue for military and police and can be configured in about anything your imagination permits. Endless supply of aftermarket stocks, barrels, sights, etc. and can customize as you wish at reasonable cost. No, it is not a Mod.12, but it is a great shotgun.

I'd vote for the Winchester M-12, in fact I did last month at a gun show. Everyone in my family had one and I've been hunting with a M870 for years. Figured it was time to move up to a "new" gun manufactured in 1942.

I picked up a lightly used Rem 870 Wingmaster a few years ago and have been in love with it since. They are very well made (feels better than new ones) and are popular for a reason.

When I can afford it I'll pick up a new Ithaca 37. My dad has one. Super nice shotguns too.

I don't think you can go wrong with the 870.

Hands down Winchester mod 12 and for .410 Win model 42. Pricey now days, but worth it. The Rem 870 has been around and has a big following, but it wasn't in same catagory in my books. BTW the Weatherby Patrician was a real POS. It had an aluminum receiver (painted black) and everytime you worked the slide it removed paint and material. When it was out of production just a few years, parts were not available.

I can attest that the recent-production Rem 870's are a far cry from the quality of the old Wingmasters. Not only are they stiff and awkward in the action, but the "key lock" safety can and does work itself into the locked position without the shooter having done anything in normal operation to cause it.

I have just gotten rid of an 870 Express which I bought specifically to keep handy for yard varmints (we live in the country) like skunks, armadillos, and motorcycle gangs. I grabbed it from its resting place a few nights ago to dispatch a marauding racoon. When the miscreant jumped from the porch to disappear into the woods, I leveled down on him and, much to my chagrin, the trigger of the 870 would not pull. Upon investigation I found that the keyed safety had somehow self-rotated to the locked position, and in order to restore the gun to shooting mode I had to locate the little "J" key to unlock it. The next week it went on consignment at my dealer's shop.

Fortunately, the racoon was only larcenous and not murderous, but I might have been more than inconvenienced if my provocatuer had been an infamously violent motorcycle gang bent on rape and pilliage rather than simply a ten-pound quadraped caught in the act of stealing cat food.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
I can attest that the recent-production Rem 870's are a far cry from the quality of the old Wingmasters. Not only are they stiff and awkward in the action, but the "key lock" safety can and does work itself into the locked position without the shooter having done anything in normal operation to cause it.

I have just gotten rid of an 870 Express which I bought specifically to keep handy for yard varmints (we live in the country) like skunks, armadillos, and motorcycle gangs. I grabbed it from its resting place a few nights ago to dispatch a marauding racoon. When the miscreant jumped from the porch to disappear into the woods, I leveled down on him and, much to my chagrin, the trigger of the 870 would not pull. Upon investigation I found that the keyed safety had somehow self-rotated to the locked position, and in order to restore the gun to shooting mode I had to locate the little "J" key to unlock it. The next week it went on consignment at my dealer's shop.

Fortunately, the racoon was only larcenous and not murderous, but I might have been more than inconvenienced if my provocatuer had been an infamously violent motorcycle gang bent on rape and pilliage rather than simply a ten-pound quadraped caught in the act of stealing cat food.

I'm pumped after reading that!

Why don't I have yard critter and roaming motorcycle gangs to deal with, it's no fair....

Haven't read this one in a while.

For a sporting arm, I love my Model 12 16ga. and my double.

For my duty shotgun I've got an 870 Wingmaster.

Hi Guys,

I've found a Wingmaster at auction for a reasonable sum, it's serial number is s939624v.


Could anyone give me an idea of when it was made?

Best,

Amir

Try this:
http://www.remingtonsociety.co...uestions/barrelcodes

For lower price the Rem 870 and Mberg 500,835 are good choices.

The mossberg is not a good choice IMHO. I had one of the early 835's. The vented rib fell off the barrel. Several friends had them that constantly jammed and when I was in the retail business I had several returned for the same problem. The Mossy's are cheap junk!

The remington 870 express is junk as well. The matte finish on the express will rust just by looking at it. They would rust in the gun shop before they had time to sell and we constantly had to oil them to keep them in new saleable condition. This in the very dry climate of Southern Utah. Just like many other things built today, too much corporate corner cutting. Everything stamped remington today is nowhere near the quality it was 20 years ago.

The old wingmasters on the other hand were some of Remington's finest work.

Say, you remember that Rem 870 Express with the self-locking safety that I gave up on and put on consignment with my dealer? Well, I came across a pretty decent used Browning BPS which I bought as a replacement. The gun has a very solid and slick feel to it. I haven't yet shot it, but it appears in all ways to be one of the best bargains available in a pump these days.

I don't see any comments on the Benneli Nova, good or bad. They seem to sell well; how do they compare to the time-tested standards?

My father got his 870 about 25 yrs ago and it's never failed.I had a Mberg 500 for about 20yrs.I had a problem with the action locking properly and the plastic safety button cracked.Fixed both and traded it for the 835 a few years ago.So far so good but sometimes I do wish I had spent more and got the Browning BPS instead.If it starts giving me grief that will be it's replacement.

I sold a lot of Novas and supernovas and never had one returned. The only complaint I've ever heard on them is they are loud when racked. Unless you're hunting coyotes it shouldn't be a problem.

I ordered a mossberg pump .410 for store inventory once that was defective. It took nearly a year before I could get that returned to the factory for replacement. I do believe the problem there was the Mossberg rep and not the company.

Gents,

I've finally managed to track down two possibles.

The first a is a 1970 ( I think, the serial number starts with a "T", I hope I have this right )870 wingmasterfor around $250 in very good nick and the second is a more used Winchester Model 12 for around $1000.

Any thoughts on which one should get the nod?

If you have the opportunity to handle them both you will notice that the 870 has the safety in the back of the trigger bow and the mod 12 in the front... you might prefer one to the other the stocks are also different I have all ways preferred the Winchester and my shooting friend the Rem.... Both guns if older will come with fixed chokes don't know what the cost is in the UK but here in the states its about $150.00 US to install screw in chokes with 3-4 chokes included this will make the gun that more versatile..
Good Luck have fun

quote:

Ghubert: I've finally managed to track down two possibles.

The first a is a 1970 ( I think, the serial number starts with a "T", I hope I have this right )870 wingmasterfor around $250 in very good nick and the second is a more used Winchester Model 12 for around $1000.

Any thoughts on which one should get the nod?

I own both. The 870.

870 price seems low to just about right.

Price on the Model 12 seems high, depending.

Parts availability might be a problem on your side of the pond.

Thank you for the replies lads, I was mainly wondering if the 870 was made early enough to be a "good one" and if the Winchester's handle wear well.

To reiterate I have a tame gunsmith who can make parts from scratch without costing the earth, re-blue etc as needed.

The Winchester does look cool, I believe it was made in the 50s, but does have more use. Which is a better choice then, a fairly mint 70's 870
or a more used 50s Model 12?

Purely as examples of the genre I mean, their relative cost is no so important.

I own both for a working hard shotgun go with the 870.

I grew up shooting a model 12 shot who knows how many thousands of round through one.

But for a hard working pump that one can get parts for easyly go with the 870. Even better find a police or miltary 870 they are even better made. They have there own prodution line and use better parts.

Hello All,

I am new to the forum and late to the party. I own both. The 870 should be a pre j lock gun. It is more utilitarian. The barrel is heavier. They are solid guns though.

The M12 is in my opinion a little lighter and better made. Remember it took us through WWII. It is essentially a hammerless M1897.

If I were going to purchase one I would pick the one that feels more natural and points better. I like a pump and simi auto with shorter barrels. The longer receivers work better for me with shorter barrels. The 870 is likely choked for modern plastic wad hulls the M12 is not. It was made for the card and fiber wads as all guns were prior to injection molded plastics.

Heck if I could talk the M12 owner down a bit I would buy them both.

Good Luck,

Joe

Benelli Nova or Super Nova, whichever fits you best.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

I have a fairly fancy model 12 made in 1928. I had briley chokes fitted for it. I can say the pattern is very even. But I reach for the 1979 Citori most of the time.