To those that might know: does this look real? I won the auction, and I am beginning to think it is to good to be true. I looked up the serial number and it looks like it could have been made in the 1960's...

http://www.egunner.com/5238111...n_id,auction_details

The "H&H" on the side of the action instead of "Holland & Holland" indicates this was a trade gun that was sold by Holland & Holland. It is a Birmingham gun, not London, complete with Birmingham proofs. It most likely was manufactured by Webley & Scott. Some of the "H&H" guns were finished, in part, by Holland & Holland. Holland & Holland marked some of the trade guns they sold with "shot and regulated by Holland & Holland" on the barrels. If it was a Holland & Holland manufactured gun it would not be marked "H&H" but would have the full "Holland & Holland" marking and London proofs. The gun has ejectors. The marking above the triggers suggests the gun was imported into the USA by Simpson Ltd of Galesburg, Illinois.

The gun is proofed for the modern 2-3/4" shells that are widely available. It will also do wonderfully with the classic British 2-1/2" shells. If you want to shoot Holland & Holland shells in the gun you can find them at Classicshooting.com.

Is it worth the $1200 I paid for it?

It must be. It just went for that at auction, didn't it.

Ouch.

Condition is everything. I have seen guns just like yours sell for more than $4500 but those were in pristine condition. Your gun shows considerable wear on the outside, including at least one small chip in the stock, but that doesn't mean anything about how well it will shoot. If your gun locks up tight and has no issues with the barrels then it can be a very useful bird gun. It should be very nice in the hand, and British at that.

An H&H, even by Webley & Scott, for $1,200? That's what a used Citori would go for. You done good in my book :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Colin Masters:
Is it worth the $1200 I paid for it?

As long as its tight and the barrel wall thickness is OK Absolutely!!

It's NOT a real Holland&Holland BUT it still is an English s/s that was largely made/fitted by hand.

You cant touch a new, made in England s/s for under $15,000 nowadays.

You did GREAT!

Ive spoken proudly of my H&Hs, both rifles and shotguns. Alas, it was Harrison and Hussey. But, it sure sounded good!
Cal

Thank you for the info and encouragement, I'll be picking it up tomorrow.

The history of the British gun trade in the 1960s is one of mergers and acquisitions as, mostly, the market declined and as, mostly, many of the companies established in the nineteenth century found their leases on their premises needing renewal.

So many that did not either own the freehold of their premises, or had an impending lease renewal, or did not (as did Cogswell and Harrison) a wealthy owner were in trouble.

Webley & Scott also had problems and was sold off to various owners at various times. Others became one huge merger of several companies.

The most obvious being what ended up as "Churchill, Atking, Grant and Lang incorporating XXXX, YYYY and ZZZZ"!

And by diverse ways Webley & Scott did become for some short time "owned" by Holland and Holland...although that was long, long after your gun was made AFAIK.

https://books.google.co.uk/boo...nd%20holland&f=false

Is it a genuine Holland and Holland? It's named as such and sold by them. But was it "made" in their London factory? No.

Enjoy it for what it is. If it is in good condition and sound you've paid just under what you'd pay here in the UK at, say, Holt's Auctioneers, plus there'd be a buyer premium on top of that. If it isn't in good order it'll cost in labour as much to fix as a top grade gun!

You will, incidentally, see Purdey boxlocks, and boxlocks marked in full Holland and Holland (their World War One "aero gun" even though that aso is a Webley made product) but you won't see a Boss boxlock as that will carry the Robertson brandline.

You can date your gun from the proof mark. It's the letter in the oval on the barrel flats:

http://www.hallowellco.com/proof_date_codes.htm

I am no expert on this gun, but I have seen a few like this in the past. It appears to be a gun made by Webley and Scott and finished / regulated by H&H. It looks to me like you got a good deal as these guns generally sell for more than the original Webley and Scott 700.

Here's a link to Holland and Holland themselves and a 20 bore "shot and regulated" up for sale at an eye watering UK £ 4,000+. Ouch!

https://www.hollandandholland....-rugulated-hshg-508/

That's a lot for a basic Webley & Scott that can be bought here in UK for about UK £ 1,200 in 20 bore calibre.

Hope it's useful to someone..