August 9, 2009

I have been out of shotgunning for a few years. I hope to get back in for the 2010 season, so now is a good time to start asking questions if you guys would be kind enough to advise me. I want to buy at least one new shotgun. My old one is a SxS 12 gauge built for lead. I used to load lead and I hope to load steel. I have never shot steel. I will be hunting ducks and geese. I want to compare 12, 16 and 20 gauges.

Starting with the 20: Assuming the same weight of load, logic suggests that the longer pattern out of a 20 gauge might be better for pass shooting ducks. If a guy knew he had a longer pattern he could hold further ahead of a moving bird and still hit. The pattern would be crossing ahead of the bird for a longer time, increasing the chance of the duck flying into it. An objection which occurs to me is that I might get more hits on birds, but fewer pellets hitting. With a thinner pattern they would not be killing or even downing shots. Any thoughts?

Comparing 16 and 20 gauge: One writer a while back said that the 3” 20 gauge essentially did away with any need for the 16 gauge. Someone who answered said the 3” 20 gauge was such shit he wouldn't even discuss it. What do you guys think, both about the value of each, and the suggestion that the 3” 20 gauge is not a good idea?

I have shot mostly 12 gauge. By reloading my own I have got around most recoil issues by loading what is comfortable. By buying a semi-auto I should be able to reduce recoil even further. That makes me think that any switching to 16 gauge for recoil purposes is unnecessary. However a 16 might be lighter to carry and easier to swing. It seems to fill a logical slot between the heavier 12 and lighter 20. What are the opinions, please?

The 20 gauge safety issue: I know about the potential for dropping a 20 gauge shell into a 12 gauge breach in a break open gun. Will a 20 gauge shell feed in a 12 gauge pump or autoloader?

Finally, shooting steel versus lead. In my hey-day #4 shot was the standard. It was excellent on ducks, and if a goose surprised you and you had #4 shot in, you were still good to go. I have read that because steel is lighter, shot size preferences have all changed. It occurs to me that although steel is said to be less effective because it is lighter, the same volume shell will spit out a lot more pellets of the same size. So what are the new rules?

Loading steel: my loader is an old plastic progressive Lee Loader. My next machine will doubtlessly be better quality, but what are the new rules?

Thanks, guys. Any advice is appreciated.

I don't like long shot strings so I like a 16 for upland birds with 1 to 1 1/8 oz. loads, or a 20 with 7/8 or 1 oz.

I sometime use a 20 for waterfowl (but not with Steel) but mostly use a 12 unless I think Geese will be in the air then I pack a 10.

The "rule of thumb" for steel is to go up 2 shot sizes and get as much velocity (around 1400/1500 FPS or more) as possible. Normal lead shot velocities with steel seem to give you a lot of wounded fly offs.

The 20 is rather limited with steel as the volume of shot gets pretty thin with the larger shot and patterns get really "patchy". At least my pattern testing showed this.

With Hevi-shot you can go down a shot size (maybe more) and the stuff is an awesome bird killer. Better than Lead any day. I do sometimes use it in a 20 for ducks. The only downside I can think of is it's costly and is it ever that.

Bismuth is another option, supposed to be close to Lead. I tried it and didn't seem to have much luck with it. Probably just me as a friend seems to do quite well with the stuff.

Reloading Steel and Hevi-shot is very different with major changes in wads, powder, etc. Same with Bismuth. I'd suggest getting some of the specialty manuals for what you are planning to load.

It might be an idea to just try some factory ammo in a shot type or two and see what you like before you jump in to reloading any of the newer stuff. It's a LOT fussier and takes more time per shell, at least for me

As to your safety question. I don't think a 20 gauge shot shell will "stay" in the magazine of a 12 gauge gun so would probably jamb at the git go. But WHY would you have 20 ga. ammo on you when carrying a 12 gauge gun? Beside all 20 gauge ammo is yellow, at least in the US, and 12 never is. You'd have to be pretty out of it to confuse them, but better to only have one gun and one ammo.

On to recoil. Gas guns have the least felt recoil and big squishy recoil pads (Kick-eez, etc.) are a huge help

Hope this helps.

Roi

OK,
Here is my two cents. Make sure when comparing loads you are comparing the same lengths. I have too many friends that rant and rave about how far superior their 12s and 20s are to my 16s. When backed into a corner they admit to suffering from magnumitis. They are shooting 3" or 3.5" for which there is no need. The 16 if built to scale will swing better and feel better than a 12 or a 20. With 1 ounce loads it is hard to beat with a 2-3/4 12ga or a 2-3/4 20ga.

These are my opinions. Everybody has one. We all think ours don't stink. I am just a fool for 16s. Maybe GatoGordo will chime in here and extoll the virtues of 3.5 inch twelves. Just be sure to ask him what I think of 3.5 inch twelves.

Andy

Gato? Anybody else?

3 and 3.5 inch twelves were great with steel shot sortof. With the advent of such creatures as Hevi----it is a new ballgame. 16s have always been more expensive and I'm really not sure why. If I could only have one it would be a 12 for availability of ammo. But, I do not have to restrict and thus handicap myself. I no longer own a 10 or 12 3.5inch. I have two sixteens and a 410 that all love Hevi-Shot. Got some great 16ga loads that are only 5/8 ounce

Andy

Wow! Thanks a bunch for the help.

I wouldn't be surprised if I end up going 12 for ammo alone. The budget she has her limits - ie. she who must be obeyed. But I've always been interested in the 16. Time'll tell.

For those who know, how much difficulty is there in hanging on to shells for reloads when shooting a semi-auto? I am tossing O/U versus semi back and forth in my mind.

wreth

1. Get which ever 12ga shotgun you like, pump, semi or O/U. It's a personal preference, I prefer a pump for general waterfowling but often use my O/U.

2. For all-round waterfowling you will be better served getting a 12ga with 3" capabilities. Yes, you can kill them with the smaller gauges (I often do) but if you are going to do much goose hunting then the 12ga will be a plus. You just don't need a 3 1/2" gun!

3. As far as the 16ga and nontoxic shot, you are going to be very limited on shell availability whether you reload or not. And, they will almost always cost you more than 12ga ammo.

4. Yes, a semi will reduce recoil. Gun weight shouldn't really be a factor since you will be doing more setting than carrying with most waterfowl guns.

5. First off, 12ga 2 3/4" shells are all you need for duck shooting. Of course, you must use the right sized pellet and choke it properly for the distance and bird you are shooting. For small or decoying ducks a 1 1/8 oz load of #4 steel is a good load and if you are shooting mostly mallards then the #2 steel pellet is good. Yes, Steel #3s are a good all-round load. For geese go with 3" 1 1/4 oz of BBs. And, you don't need the super-high velocity loads some hunters say you need. Loads in the 1,300-1,500 fps velocity range will do just fine and neither you nor the duck will never know the difference.

6. Reloading steel is a different proposition than lead and less forgiving. Read up on it in reloading manuals like Lyman's, Reloading Specialties Inc., Ballistics Products Inc., Precision Reloading, etc. It's kind of a pain so unless you shoot a lot or just want to load some special for yourself you will probably be able to buy it for about the same price if you watch for rebates and off-season sales.

7. Remember, if you can't put the pattern on the front end of the duck then little else matters!

Good luck.

Buy a 10.

quote:

Buy a 10.

Make sure it is 2-7/8 chamber

Andy

As a general rule, and particularly when applied to waterfowling, bigger is better, bigger shot, bigger bores, bigger shot charges. Do you mind them being slightly more dead or do you prefer cripples. Most people kind of neglect to count the ones that get away.

Same thing as in the pheasant discussion, if you think your 16 or 20 or whatever is such a duck slayer, let's load it with equivalent lead loads, (to save money) and shoot them from about 15 yards behind stations 2 thru 6 on a skeet range, and we'll see which breaks the most clays. I'm 60 years old and haven't shot much shotguns for years and I'll take my chances with a 12 or a 10 against a 20 anyday. You will also be amazed at how few birds you will break at the roughly 40 yd breaking distance. GREAT practice for ducks BTW. To repeat the obvious, low gun, of course.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Buy a 10.

I used to stand 5'5", but I think I've shrunk (I'll be 60 before Xmas). How much of a beating does a 10 give out, and how easy are they to load for? How much more than 12 gauge ammo does a 10 cost, please?

Wretch:

I've shot thousands of shells through a 10 ga and they used to be the cat's meow for geese before steel and the newer better shots, such as hevi-shot. One time I won a thousand bucks betting a doctor that my buddy and I would kill more geese with our 10s than he and his buddy would with their new to them 3 inch Superposeds. This was outside of Gueydan, La. As luck would have it, it broke a blue bird day, geese weren't decoying at all and we limitied (10, I think, this was a long time ago), they killed 2 geese. My hunting buddy and I were known as the 10 ga boys locally. At that time, the additional payload of a 10 gave it a distinct advantage over even the best 12 ga loads. A good man with a 10 like my hunting buddy was (I was pretty good, but I think he was better with a shotgun, opposite was true with rifles and pistols), could, if he so desired, kill every bird coming in before a man with a 12 next to him even raised his gun.

Frankly, nowadays 10s are just not necessary or really, even desirable.

In addition, because of the additional wt of most 10s, there is a distinct learning curve to shooting one well. Some people get it pretty quickly, some people (possibly because of recoil, cost, or lack of desire) never get it.

Bottom line, I don't think a 10 would be a wise choice at your age and stature. It won't gain you much if anything, shells are significantly higher, and 10s do not have the flexibility of most 12s. Get a good 3 or 3 1/2 inch 12, probably considering everything a semi-auto (this from a dyed in the wool O/U man), and you'll be good to go for anything from Greater Cans to hummingbirds (that one is for KG).

Didn't want to come right out and say this, but here goes. With the invention of Tungsten Matrix and Hevi-shot, the 3.5"10ga and the 3.5"12ga have pretty much used up their usefulness. I once stated that 3.5" 12s are good for nothing other than butt plugs. I also believe 3.5" 10s are for folks with bigger than normal asses.
For pass-shooting I'll still stick to my 16s. Heck, I know of a guy that kills ducks,geese, and even Tundra swans with 1/2oz of #9 Hevi-shot in a 410!!!

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
Didn't want to come right out and say this, but here goes. With the invention of Tungsten Matrix and Hevi-shot, the 3.5"10ga and the 3.5"12ga have pretty much used up their usefulness. I once stated that 3.5" 12s are good for nothing other than butt plugs. I also believe 3.5" 10s are for folks with bigger than normal asses.
For pass-shooting I'll still stick to my 16s. Heck, I know of a guy that kills ducks,geese, and even Tundra swans with 1/2oz of #9 Hevi-shot in a 410!!!

Andy

So following your theory, no one should hunt a deer with anything larger than a .22 LR because it will kill them. Why would you possibly think that a larger payload of any given shot would not be more effective on the margins than a smaller amount of the same shot?

I prefer to shoot them, but if you like to use them as butt plugs, well, to each his own.

Ya know Charlie this is getting off subject of what this poster was originally asking. However you being one of the most opinionated,"my way or it is wrong" SOBs on here, you need to learn some reading comprehension skills to with your bullshitting skills then you would really be the old man on top of the mountain. I do not yet have an ignore list, but If I had to choose you would be #1.

22lr are not legal for killing deer. 16ga is legal for killing all birds that are legally huntable in North America.

There was a time when even 8,4, and even punt guns were acceptable for hunting. The hunter pays the price in carrying these monsters around. Now the 10 remains the biggest for hunting legally, and has really outlived its usefulness. Unless you are such a bad shot that you need to lob 2-1/4 ounces of shot into the sky towards unsuspecting doves.

Comparing 12,16, and 20 ga loads available is quite a task as there are fewer folks hunting with 16s than probably any other ga. Due partially to the fact that shit spewing idiots that have no idea of the limiting factors involved with the intended users insist that anything shy of a howitser is not throwing enough shot into the air to be of any good use of money.

My opinion is that the 16 2-3/4 outperforms the 20 2-3/4 and approaches the 12 2-3/4 in overall performance given the advantages of modern non steel, non toxic shot.

The other problems associated with the big boomers is despite gas operation they still kick more than the average shotgunner is willing to practice with. 3.5 in 10 or 12 costs a lot more as well.

If a waterfowl hunter is willing to learn decoying techniques, use appropriate camoflauge, and be selective in the birds chosen to be shot, there is no reason why a 16 or a 20 cannot be successfully used in harvesting game. Anybody that continues to deny this is either a sales rep or a masochist!

Velocities of all these shells around 1200-1350. Choke also plays a huge role and knowing which to use with what type of shot. Rarely do over the counter choke tubes perform as advertised. Also get a shell from every manufacturer available that is 1 ounce of #4(pick your metal-all the same) at approximately the same velocity and find that none will patten the same.


A simple respone to the initial poster would read something like.....12s kick more but carry more payload, 16s perform very much like 12s of the same length and often pattern better but usually cost more and are not as readily available, 20s..well I personally have no experience with 20s and am man enough to admit it, I won't start spewing a buch of crap about how if you are not using a 10 ga then you are just wasting your money.

As far as what a person prefers to shoot, it seems Charlie prefers to shoot his mouth more than anything else. I have been on two hunts with him and have seen only his son kill anything. Great shooting Adam, by the way.


I didn't have the fortune to grow up in a hunting household. What I have learned has been by personal experience. Trial and error. I will never again own a 10ga. My sixteens do fine for me. Your experiences may differ.

quote:

My opinion is that the 16 2-3/4 outperforms the 20 2-3/4 and approaches the 12 2-3/4 in overall performance given the advantages of modern non steel, non toxic shot.

The other problems associated with the big boomers is despite gas operation they still kick more than the average shotgunner is willing to practice with. 3.5 in 10 or 12 costs a lot more as well.

If a waterfowl hunter is willing to learn decoying techniques, use appropriate camoflauge, and be selective in the birds chosen to be shot, there is no reason why a 16 or a 20 cannot be successfully used in harvesting game. Anybody that continues to deny this is either a sales rep or a masochist!

Just to be clear, you've answered your own question, if there was one. Shooting steel, which many people do, especially the ones who hunt the most, then more shot load is better and a 3 1/2 inch is MORE, especially compared to the anemic 16 ga steel loads. "Approaches in performance" is a flat statement by you which specifically means that it doesn't equal. If it doesn't equal, and someone wants the maximum advantage shooting waterfowl then why would they choose a less effective alternative?

You don't "practice" with 3 1/2 inch loads, you practice with light recoiling lead loads on a clay range. You KILL things with your hunting loads. Practice equals good gun handling, mounting, and swinging techniques, which equals to better shooting in the field.

I don't give a damn how experienced a waterfowler someone is, there are days the birds just don't cooperate. If you choose to go home with one or two birds, or none with very few or no shots on those days, that is your choice. Others prefer to have loads and guns that will reach out and touch them when the birds flare or skirt off the spreads.

To be clear, I don't care what anyone chooses to shoot, but if you can shoot, and you want maximum results then you'll shoot a 12 in 3 1/2 inch or at least 3 inch if you use steel and the heaviest loads you can find in other types of shot. If anyone cares to shoot any lesser gauges or lesser loads because of their type of hunting (timber, for instance, is mostly close range and won't require maximum loads), that's fine and that is their personal choice but it is not the best combination for the average shooter who wants to kill waterfowl, on the good days and the not so good days.

I repeat, I'm not saying that everyone needs to shoot a 3 1/2 12 most of the time, but, especially using steel, there are times that it makes the difference between duck soup and air soup, and that's a fact. Any hunter should use their judgement as to what they want to shoot with. Weidmannsheil.

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
Ya know Charlie this is getting off subject of what this poster was originally asking. However you being one of the most opinionated,"my way or it is wrong" SOBs on here, you need to learn some reading comprehension skills to with your bullshitting skills then you would really be the old man on top of the mountain. I do not yet have an ignore list, but If I had to choose you would be #1.

22lr are not legal for killing deer. 16ga is legal for killing all birds that are legally huntable in North America.

There was a time when even 8,4, and even punt guns were acceptable for hunting. The hunter pays the price in carrying these monsters around. Now the 10 remains the biggest for hunting legally, and has really outlived its usefulness. Unless you are such a bad shot that you need to lob 2-1/4 ounces of shot into the sky towards unsuspecting doves.

Comparing 12,16, and 20 ga loads available is quite a task as there are fewer folks hunting with 16s than probably any other ga. Due partially to the fact that shit spewing idiots that have no idea of the limiting factors involved with the intended users insist that anything shy of a howitser is not throwing enough shot into the air to be of any good use of money.

My opinion is that the 16 2-3/4 outperforms the 20 2-3/4 and approaches the 12 2-3/4 in overall performance given the advantages of modern non steel, non toxic shot.

The other problems associated with the big boomers is despite gas operation they still kick more than the average shotgunner is willing to practice with. 3.5 in 10 or 12 costs a lot more as well.

If a waterfowl hunter is willing to learn decoying techniques, use appropriate camoflauge, and be selective in the birds chosen to be shot, there is no reason why a 16 or a 20 cannot be successfully used in harvesting game. Anybody that continues to deny this is either a sales rep or a masochist!

Velocities of all these shells around 1200-1350. Choke also plays a huge role and knowing which to use with what type of shot. Rarely do over the counter choke tubes perform as advertised. Also get a shell from every manufacturer available that is 1 ounce of #4(pick your metal-all the same) at approximately the same velocity and find that none will patten the same.


A simple respone to the initial poster would read something like.....12s kick more but carry more payload, 16s perform very much like 12s of the same length and often pattern better but usually cost more and are not as readily available, 20s..well I personally have no experience with 20s and am man enough to admit it, I won't start spewing a buch of crap about how if you are not using a 10 ga then you are just wasting your money.

As far as what a person prefers to shoot, it seems Charlie prefers to shoot his mouth more than anything else. I have been on two hunts with him and have seen only his son kill anything. Great shooting Adam, by the way.


I didn't have the fortune to grow up in a hunting household. What I have learned has been by personal experience. Trial and error. I will never again own a 10ga. My sixteens do fine for me. Your experiences may differ.

Since, like most people who can't support their position with logic, you chose to make it personal, I'll reply in kind.......

If your reading comprehension was nearly as good as you seem to think it is, you'd have noticed that I already answered the question posed on the thread.

My answer above was a response to your ridiculous assertions that "your way" with a 16 ga is the only reasonable way and that larger gauges and shot is not reasonable and solely the result of "magnumitis". I doubt you've ever heard of him, but Nash Buckingham was widely regarded as one of the finest duck shots in the US back in the 30s and 40s. Guess what he used? Hint, it wasn't a 16 or 20. Many of us don't have bad backs and can shoot bigger shells for pass shooting, just for one small example.

The .22LR was an example of how your logic was flawed when carried to it's conclusion, not stating that we should all use .22s for deer. Why don't you try thinking along with attempting to improve your reading comprehesion?

I grew up in a hunting household, and have been shooting targets, birds, and animals since I was 4 years old, not to mention hundreds of thousands of shots at clay birds......that makes it 56 years now. I've killed hundreds of hogs and deer, and tens of thousands of birds, unlike some people I'm way past the "gotta kill" something mentality on a hunt to prove I can kill something.

Like most proud Daddy's. I'm overjoyed to watch my son, Adam, hunt and kill game. It is his turn for his day in the sun, and I'm thrilled to have the experience of helping him do have it. I've had many of those days and killing one or a dozen more animals doesn't make that much difference to me, so I don't hunt as hard as I could or as much as I used to. Most hunters get to that point, some sooner than others. What I do still enjoy is killing birds at the maximum range possible even tho with my ranch hunting requirements, I don't bird hunt as much as I used to by any means.

If you think I can't shoot anything but my mouth, why don't we stand side by side and shoot some shotguns, rifles, and pistols, and bet enough on each shot to make it really interesting. I'm spotting you 25 years or so, but I think my "mouth shooting" is better than your self proclaimed shooting ability anyday. Do I think I can outshoot everyone around, no, but I damn sure think I can outshoot you.

You were so thrilled with those RBCD loads you used.....I've had them in my home defense guns for many years. Yeah, you're on the leading edge. I don't use them on game because of the meat loss.

quote:

I won't start spewing a buch of crap about how if you are not using a 10 ga then you are just wasting your money.

You should have read my above reply to wretch before you exposed more of your poor reading comprehension. I know it's tough for you, so I'll quote the gist of my above reply to wretch, "Frankly, nowadays 10s are just not necessary or really, even desirable."

Put me on ignore, we'll both be better off, because you think you know what you're talking about, but I know what I talking about, I've been there, and done it, many times (let's see, thinking back, I've killed ducks or geese in at least 8 countries and at least 9 states using all the common gauges at various times but when the chips were down, it had to be a 12 or 10 (when lead was legal)......with the exception of squirrels and small game, all I hunted was birds for 30 years and I was quite serious about it), and if I don't know something from experience, I don't talk about it like I do. Are there other valid opinions and options, certainly, but physics is pretty much a science and less ain't as good as more when it comes to the edges of shotgun ranges.

In the interim, I don't care what anyone chooses to hunt with, that's their choice and I'm sure mostly they choose it for what they view as valid reasons. I'm simply saying that at long ranges, a smaller gauge isn't as good as a bigger one, comparing apples to apples as far as loads go.

quote:

You were so thrilled with those RBCD loads you used.....I've had them in my home defense guns for many years. Yeah, you're on the leading edge. I don't use them on game because of the meat loss.

Unlike some hunters that will take any shot available, I chose to be very selective with what I shoot at and where I place a bullet. Did I lose any more meat using them than a traditional cup and core bullet...NO! Should have stuck around. RBCD rifle bullets are of a completely different construction than their pistol bullets.

Having fun in the field doesn't always mean limiting out shooting birds at the maximum possible distance!

"I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process." Exactly WTF does that mean to you? Hunting is seeking, or searching for something in particular. Killing it is something all together different.

I have had two 10ga guns. A New England Arms over under sold it to get a Remington SP10. I have also had two 12ga 3.5" guns. A Mossberg 835 and a Win SX2. I preferred the SX2 because of flexibility, it would function reliably with low power 12s. Sold it because I was tired of 12ga. I never found any "low power" 10s, and the less than full power reloads I tried wouldn't cycle the action.Full power 3.5 10 and 12ga will really reach out and slam the birds, but I find I have more fun shooting smaller gauges. Knowing the limitations forces me to become better at decoying, better at camoflauge and more selective at which birds I shoot. They are lighter, easier to swing, easier to carry and at the end of the day. If a guy wants to carry and use cannons all the time more power to him. Bang away...I know I'll have more fun by the time the day is done.

Where is the challenge in shooting at maximum distance? Charlie, I'm sure you have better decoying skills than that. Yes, there are days when the birds just won't come in, thats part of hunting


To the original poster, I appologise for getting off track. I get really annoyed when a hunter that should know better due to his vast experience recommends a cartridge for which comparison to other gauges is impossible. There are no 3.5 inch 20s or 16s.

The bigger gauges are able to throw more shot at the same velocity and thus create denser patterns. However, with bigger payloads comes more recoil, ammo cost is usually greater and the guns themselves are usually heavier. With the advent of Hevi-shot and Tungsten-Matrix the abilities of smaller gauges to produce denser paterns with smaller than traditional shot size somewhat evens up the odds. There is a member that post under the alias NV Guide that regularly uses 410 with 1/2oz of #9 Hevi for ducks and geese. He also uses 28ga for ducks, geese, and SWAN!

I like 16s and will continue to "sell" them to others. 12s are more popular and there are many more loads available but they kick more. 20s as I have already stated I have no experience with. Perhaps a few others that have not yet posted with experience with 20s will do so.

This is my last post on this particular forum. I have said my peace.

quote:

Full power 3.5 10 and 12ga will really reach out and slam the birds

Well, no shit, that's what I've been trying to get across for all the above posts. I'm glad you finally admitted it.

quote:

Where is the challenge in shooting at maximum distance? Charlie, I'm sure you have better decoying skills than that. Yes, there are days when the birds just won't come in, thats part of hunting

You've got it exactly backwards, where is the challenge in shooting cupped ducks? In places far away from here I've killed bunches of them with a .22. With a shotgun, I can't remember when I missed killing at least the first one (it has happenrd but not often) and usually two or three (depending on whether I'm using my 101 or a Benelli). That's no fun. The fun is killing them where most people can't and that starts at about 50 yards and goes well beyond that. Pass shooting or backing up the close in shooters after they've shot dry is the fun of duck hunting FOR ME. I'm not into numbers of birds killed, I'm into difficult shots. I always ask for the toughest spots in dove fields in Argentina or Uruguay. Same reason, close in landing doves or cupped doves are too simple. Give me the edges where they're coming in high and fast over trees or a ridge. OTOH, I thought I could shoot pretty well until I ran into some rock pigeons in South Africa, they humbled me. I finally got a bit better on them but that meant I was up to about maybe 30%. Rudy Etchen, a now deceased friend of mine, told me that the wood pigeons of England were the toughest birds he ever shot. I've never shot them, but I'd put incoming downwind rockies up against them anytime. Only other two birds I've ever shot that had their speed was some whitewings flying in front of thunderstorm in Mexico.....if you didn't shoot them way out front, at say 40 yards or so, you couldn't swing fast enough to catch them as they went by. The other is downwind canvasbacks in Canada.

Like I've mentioned before take your beloved 16 ga, back up about 15 yards behind 2-6 skeet stations, start with a low gun, and we'll see how good you are. Anybody with a minimum of shooting ability can kill them cupped in front of them. Bah.

Recoil question. Physics says that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Does a one oz load at a given velocity out of a 12 gauge give any more or less recoil than the same load out of a 16? I read somewhere that modern 16s are built on 12 gauge frames, so logic suggests there would be no difference?

Without getting into minutiae, which would include weight of powder charge and wad, length of forcing cone, etc., the basic answer is that given the same shot charge at the same velocity, the ACTUAL recoil will be the same IF the shotguns weigh the same. Lighter total wt gun =s more recoil obviously.

Finally, there is a real difference between ACTUAL recoil and perceived (felt) recoil and that is mostly based on stock design and, of course, action type (generally speaking most doubles, singles, and pumps will have more perceived recoil than semi-autos, all other things being equal, which they rarely are). I've got a .300 Weatherby in a sporting wt rifle by Bill Wiseman (unbraked BTW) that is remarkable for how little recoil it FEELS like it generates. The same can be true of shotguns to some extent, knife edged combs, combs that are too high for the shooter, too much drop at heel, etc can all add to the shooter's perception of how much recoil any given gun has.

BTW, I want to make this clear, if you are recoil sensitive, then by all means you should NOT shoot maximum loads while hunting or any other time. There is nothing wrong with choosing to hunt with lesser loads, the hunter has the responsiblity to shoot at what is in range FOR HIM and to not shoot at birds at ranges that are beyond either his shooting ability or the ranges of the loads he is shooting. Generally speaking, a 28 ga shooter should not be shooting ducks at 50 yards, for example.

If anyone chooses to shoot with smaller gauges or loads for any of a myriad of personal choices that is fine, and more power to them. OTOH that is a personal choice and should not dictate their opionions of the facts of what kills the best.

Back to the point, if you're recoil senstive, I'd suggest you get a 12 or a 20 and shoot less than maximum loads in it. If money is no object a couple of the newer Benellis and Beretta semi-autos substantially reduce felt (perceived) recoil as well but are well over $1000 each.

Why do I suggest a 12 or a 20 instead of a 16? Simple, ammo availability. If you forget your ammo, or lose it overboard, you can pull into almost any half way decent sporting goods store and find some duck loads in 12 or 20. 16s aren't nearly as easy to come by and sometimes cost more for the equivalent load in 12 or 20.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Without getting into minutiae, which would include weight of powder charge and wad, length of forcing cone, etc., the basic answer is that given the same shot charge at the same velocity, the ACTUAL recoil will be the same IF the shotguns weigh the same. Lighter total wt gun =s more recoil obviously.

Finally, there is a real difference between ACTUAL recoil and perceived (felt) recoil and that is mostly based on stock design and, of course, action type (generally speaking most doubles, singles, and pumps will have more perceived recoil than semi-autos, all other things being equal, which they rarely are). ... The same can be true of shotguns to some extent, knife edged combs, combs that are too high for the shooter, too much drop at heel, etc can all add to the shooter's perception of how much recoil any given gun has.

Back to the point, if you're recoil senstive, I'd suggest you get a 12 or a 20 and shoot less than maximum loads in it. If money is no object a couple of the newer Benellis and Beretta semi-autos substantially reduce felt (perceived) recoil as well but are well over $1000 each.

Why do I suggest a 12 or a 20 instead of a 16? Simple, ammo availability. If you forget your ammo, or lose it overboard, you can pull into almost any half way decent sporting goods store and find some duck loads in 12 or 20. 16s aren't nearly as easy to come by and sometimes cost more for the equivalent load in 12 or 20.

Excellent points. Thanks, gato.

wretch, just go buy a Beretta 391 or 3901 in 12 gauge.

I think the Beretta 3901 Statesman is the best deal on the market in semi autos, you can find em' for around $700 on Gunbroker.

It'll feed light 7/8oz loads on up to 2oz turkey loads, good steel shot shooter too.

Very soft shooting, you can adjust the stock for fit by changing shims.

Very durable guns.

And then buy a used MEC Sizemaster off Ebay for another $100 or so.

Then go shooting and hunting.

It matters not what size bore you shoot as long as you have an adequate pattern density with enough individual pellet energy to do the job. I find that 7/8 oz of Hevi #7 will work well to 50+ yds. after that I am wasting money on extra shot. Loads are running 1325fps and about .008 choke. Patterns are amazing.This one at 30 yds.




Results are impressive.

quote:

Originally posted by Skinner.:
wretch, just go buy a Beretta 391 or 3901 in 12 gauge.

I think the Beretta 3901 Statesman is the best deal on the market in semi autos, you can find em' for around $700 on Gunbroker.

It'll feed light 7/8oz loads on up to 2oz turkey loads, good steel shot shooter too.

Very soft shooting, you can adjust the stock for fit by changing shims.

Very durable guns.

And then buy a used MEC Sizemaster off Ebay for another $100 or so.

Then go shooting and hunting.

Thanks. I just saved this to Word.

quote:

Originally posted by NV Guide:
It matters not what size bore you shoot as long as you have an adequate pattern density with enough individual pellet energy to do the job. I find that 7/8 oz of Hevi #7 will work well to 50+ yds. after that I am wasting money on extra shot. Loads are running 1325fps and about .008 choke. Patterns are amazing.This one at 30 yds.




Results are impressive.

Dennis,

Back in lead days (last time I shot geese) the absolute minimum for geese was #4, with 7 1/2 reserved for upland game. What does hevi have that lead didn't?

Wretch,

Going back on my word.....Hevi is a composite of iron, tungsten and tin, I think. The tungsten is 1.3 times as dense as lead, so a smaller pellet weighs more and thus carries more energy. Ya can get more of a smaller shot size and deliver the same energy as larger shot of lead or steel. Many times you can deliver even more energy that. I have killed and have witnesses(one of them a game warden) 6 snows at 80yds(they were on the ground) and it was late season no bag limits. I was using 1-1/8 ounce of #6 in a 3"12ga. This was back when Hevi first hit the market and it was available in 12 only and not available to reloaders. I was using a imp cyl or skeet choke iirc.

Andy

I also used #4 lead for geese in years past. With Hevi I use 7 1/2 when they are decoying well and 5's or 6's when not. Hevi is slightly denser than lead and much harder. The hardness allows faster speeds with less deformation (better patterns) and better penetration. Our approach to this stuff was to develop load that patterned well with enough density as specified in CONSEP data. Then using pellet weight to ensure enough velocity for penetration.

To summarize, a load with enough pattern density and energy out to a specific distance if a good load for that distance. It matters not what size bore it is fired out of if all prior criteria are met.

All birds in the pics were taken with 28ga guns and Hevi.

Dennis,

I sent my 410 off to have thin walled choke tubes installed. I have loaded a few with the load you provided..1/2oz #9. I can't wait to get my little-biggun back to try it out.

Andy