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I was out shooting sporting clays last weekend.It was my first time and I had a lot of fun.I plan on returning this weekend.My o/u 12 gauge is made in Italy,has a 3 inch chamber and double triggers.It is an inexpensive model with no brand name engraved anywhere.I am not interested in purchasing another but was just wondering. | ||
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You can solve most any gunfit issue. You can adjust most any trigger to make it usable. Convergence is the hurdle that trips up relatively inexpensive doubles. "Inexpensive" can mean under $6k. You may not notice it so much on a skeet field with open constrictions. ATA and NSCA are another matter. I could waste bandwith with various anecdotes from personal experience. But the situation is so bad I would not buy without test patterning. Some exceptions: most any Browning Super (the Belgian), K-32 or 80, P-gun, Kolar, Blaser, or custom shop Beretta. Reasonably safe gambles, and you can save by buying on the secondary market. Single barrel guns are not immune to having barrels with POImpact far from POAim, sad to say. Less likely, though. | |||
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What Sam said is applicable if you are going to purchase a gun for regular and heavy competition use. Unless you put down some big change the gun just isn't going to last. However, an average bird hunter and occasional clays shooter will shoot less through his gun in ten years than a competitor shoots in one. For example, a guy who shoots three rounds of sporting clays, four rounds of 5-stand or skeet, and 100 rounds bird hunting is shooting 600 per year. That's still probably more than most bird hunters shoot in a year. A serious competitor will shoot 200-500 rounds in one weekend in practice and competition. He won't shoot that much every weekend and some weeks he won't shoot at all. But it is not unusual for even an amateur competitor to shoot 5,000-10,000 rounds a year. Olympic gold medalist Kim Rhode shoots 500-1,000 rounds of practice every day! For competitive shooting you need a gun built like a tank and you pay the price, both in weight and money. A new Beretta DT11 is about $10,000. A Perazzi competition model is about $15,000. Prices only go up from there. Those guns typically weight 8-1/4 to 8-3/4 lbs - or more! You can buy a used one but you'll never know how many thousands or tens of thousands of rounds have been fired through it and, yes, they do eventually wear out. But if you are going to shoot like most people you can find a nice gun in the $1500-$3000 range that will serve you many, many years, probably more than you have left in you. Consider weight too. A decently made, non-competition grade, "upland" style gun will weigh about 6-1/2 pounds or less and a common "sporting" style gun will weigh about 7 pounds or less. For example, a 30" barreled Beretta Silver Pigeon weighs just under 7 pounds. In my opinion, in the $2000-$3000 range a Beretta is tough to beat. In the $1500-$2000 range my pick is Franchi. Both Franchi and Beretta have several models in those price ranges that I consider "good value". I have a Franchi and my wife has a Beretta. But I've shot both of them enough to say that I'm pleased with both. That is not meant to read that those are the only decent guns in that range. Just two that I have experience with that also happen to be two of the more popular brands. I also recommend Browning as another, well respected maker of guns in this price category. I haven't owned a recent model Browning but I have friends who swear by them. And, again, there are other decent makes of guns out there for under $3000. I made the mistake once of buying a lesser known brand that was beautifully engraved, fitted with fancy wood, and boasted of precision manufacture. Unfortunately, I paid more attention to the ooh-aah factor than to the nuts and bolts. It was a beauty to behold. But it was built like junk and kept breaking. In fact it never really worked right. I mention this as a caution because there are several fancy looking guns being sold with lots of hype and showcased by sexy women. We all like to see that stuff but look past it, look to the nuts and bolts. . | |||
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"Test drove" a Beretta 687 whose O/U pattern edges barely overlapped at 21 yds. Could not break 20 yd skeet targets with the top barrel. Which was a clue. When I put it on paper the reason was clear. Most are not that far off, to be fair. I don't know where that gun ended up. Perhaps Beretta felt obligated to fix it. I'm glad it didn't become my problem. Wouldn't want such poor convergence on a field gun, either. And yes, you can get a serviceable O/U field gun for alot less money than a Perazzi. But you ought to pattern test before finalizing the sale. | |||
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A Japanese produced SKB is probably one of the best inexpensive but quality pieces. http://www.facebook.com/profil...p?id=100001646464847 A.M. Little Bespoke Gunmakers LLC 682-554-0044 Michael08TDK@yahoo.com | |||
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How are the Winchester 101's? | |||
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I got a headache shooting 100 rounds. | |||
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I don’t know about now, but the 101 of years past was made by SKB. Probably still is! I bought one in 1981 and loved it. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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I have a Browning 725 Sporting. It works well for me. Lots of 25/25 on the trap range and very respectable scores on Sporting Clays. Best to try before you buy. | |||
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Fabarm? | |||
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Some interesting reading on their websites.I didn't know SKB made the old Weatherbys. | |||
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Keep your eyes open for a Miroku/Chas Daly 12 or 20. They are excellent quality made shotguns and the forerunner to the Browning Citori. They can be had for $450-$1000. I have four and took one to Uruguay for doves, never had a failure to fire Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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I have one. The Venture model. It’s 2 3/4 chamber and a nice, light shotgun. | |||
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For a dedicated clays gun, especially in 12ga, light might not be the ticket, even with target loads.. | |||
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No, SKB, though they make excellent shotguns, made an entirely different type of O/U action. The Japanese 101 was made by Olin-Kodensha. They are well-regarded shotguns. | |||
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I brought my O/U to the smith today.I got beat up by the stock lately.I figured the LOP was too short.The LOP will be extended out t0 14 and 3/4 inches and a Pachmeyer old english pad will be installed.I asked the store owner if he remembered the brand name of my shotgun he sold me in 1980 and he said that it is a Salvinelli. | |||
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What is it about sporting clays that makes it so punishing? When I have shot sporting clays I hopped on a golf cart, rode for 5 minutes, arrived at the station, watched the birds, shot mine, waited for the other guys in my squad to shoot, hopped in the cart rode for another 5 minutes , ditto! It took me probably 2 hours to shoot 50 targets. I do NOT believe that is punishing! The required weight of the gun is set IMHO by the requirements of the target. All my targets were able to be shot by having the gun up, but the barrel slightly lowered, and the stock slightly off the shoulder ie. modified "low gun" but the gun is not low! I use the same technique for "wobble trap". Now, a light gun might well react adversely to a heavy load and hinder the second shot on a "true" double, but probably not a report double. I am not an expert at sporting clays, but the speed of shooting seems to me to be much less than skeet or trap with experienced shooters. The skill comes in where, before you stand on the station, you have already decided where the hold point is for the first shot, and where you will break each of the birds. Same as skeet! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Last March I bought a Browning Citori CSX O/U from Cabelas for $1800 after a 10% rebate from Browning. I started trap shooting with it, and it works very well for me. I had shoulder surgery in October, and I should be able to resume next Spring. | |||
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If you want good value for your money look for a lighly used Browning citori Sporting Clays model with the 30 inch barrels. I purchased mine new over 10 years ago and it is still going strong and works very well indeed. again, Browning Citori Sporting Clays model. | |||
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I have 20,000 rounds through a couple of different miroku citori/ citori patent guns. They have stood the test of being used heavily in both the field and in sporting clays. All seem to be ticking along just fine. One I have been shooting since I was 11, and I’m 39 now. | |||
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Blaser F16 sporting clays model | |||
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I have BC Mircoku Charles Daily a 12 and a 20. Like both the 12 is choked full and improved mod. the 20 is full and mod. Both work very well on near by sporting clays courses. How ever I am having a problem with the 20ga My favorite. It will some times have a hard trigger and the top barrel (second shot) will not go off. I have disassembled it and lubed it well and it is still doing it but not as bad. The 12 weighs 7 1/4 pounds and isn't to bad with Remington STS or Nitros on a clays course. But I have a 885 SKB with changeable chokes 12ga weighs 8 1/2 pounds I like better for clays. I bought it used, should have read up on the choke tubes as they require the competition chokes and no one in the area carrys them Order only even from a SKB dealer.  AlGarden View Apiaries where the view is as sweet as the honey. | |||
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I have a number of Browning Citoris. Two of them are Sporting Clays models-one a Lightning Sporting Clays and the other a Browning 625 Golden Sporting Clays.  I bought the 625 new; the Lightning Sporting Clays I bought used from a gentleman that had put at least 10,000 rounds through it. It is as tight as new-in fact, I believe that the Citoris are made to "shoot in". | |||
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I am not an avid clay shooter. Interesting in that market, it is not unlike archery or cell phones. There is a new gimmick every year to try and sell you a new gun. I would look for a good pre 1960 Browning 12 gs. superposed with 30" barrels. Have it choked how you prefer. Most you will find are mod and full but that is easy to alter with a good smith. Choke tubes are practical but I believe that is like putting hub caps on a Mercedes. They were a bit heavier gun which would assist with recoil and I find their stock dimensions preferable to the post 60 era. You will not get back boring, ported tubes, longer forcing cones, adjustable stock, choke tubes yada yada yada. You can get a very will made gun about $2K and go out and practice. Most guys I know that are good at the events practice a lot. Last time I was at a sporting clays event I had my old Winchester SX1 12 ga. The young man that won the event noticed the shotgun and asked to see it. Noted it was the finest gas auto ever made. Not one stamped part. Another very finely made gun you can probably get under $1K. Just without all the "decoration". EZ | |||
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Regarding a Browning Superposed. Good value? Go look at a new Browning B25 (superposed) and see what one will set you back. | |||
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I used to shoot a Beretta 686 skeet gun that I purchased new in Naples Italy back in 1977. I could not miss with that gun. I also had a Charles Daly Superior Grade that I used for waterfowl. I never got very good with that gun. Both guns are sadly no longer with me. Today I was playing around with a Berrta 686 and a Franchi Instinct. I am leaning towards the Franchi. It seemed to mount more naturally for me. I am not crazy about the shiny chrome choke inserts on the end of the barrels though. The Franchi was about $500 bucks cheaper then the Berretta BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
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I shot 25/25 in International Trap today using my double trigger Salvinelli.Now that I had the front part of the comb lowered by steam, the shotgun is pleasant to shoot. | |||
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A used Belgian-made Browning Supers is a great deal at less than $2000. I've had a number of them and used them for clays. Also a Remington 3200 is a very good and affordable target gun. | |||
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I have a Browning Citori 12G. that I would sell for $1000.00 in like new condition.I love my Ugartchea S/S so that's the only one I use.Always open to trades aS WELL. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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My Salvinelli is good for the rest of my life and it has double triggers! If I where to buy another today I would want one with double triggers.That way I don't get into a bad habit and pull the first trigger on my double rifle two times.I've hunted small game since my youth with the Salvinelli double trigger too so I got used to it.There is good practice with double triggers in sporting clays.I wonder if there are any economy or good value double shotguns with double triggers being made today? | |||
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I guess the Citori has gone out of vogue.Oh well,it does'nt eat anything;just snoozes in the cabinet. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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For competition shooting, there is no better value than the Valmet 412/FinnClassic 512. Strong as all getout, nice and hefty, available with adjustable comb, lop adjustable using a system of spacers. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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Russ, I guess it depends on the "game". I have a Tikka 412 ST with rifle barrels AND a 12 ga. O/U set. I have never used it for skeet as I think it would be too heavy, but, with your recommendation I might just try it out next time! Have to check on the chokes though! Might try it at trap if it is full/mod. A Citori tubed set, and a Citori 4 barrel set, are part of my skeet armory! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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I just "coached" my brother in a Sporting Clays shotgun purchase, his first target gun. I made him watch countless youtube videos about gunfitting before he even went to the stores. The videos from England are some of the best. Here is what "we" concluded: 1) know what gunfitting is before you buy a competition gun and know why it's different from a hunting gun. 2) If you are buying an entry level gun (Beretta Silver Pigeon or Browning B725 Sporting or Cynergy CX for instance) find one that is very close to your best fit out of the box. For that, you'll need to buy from a seller that knows shotgun fit and can help you at the time of selection. Forget just about everything else. A beautiful gun that doesn't fit you is a waste of money. If you are thinking about a more expensive gun get a fitting with a try-gun and have your new expensive gun made to your specifications. Watch these to get my drift: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrnT_BfmC3Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaRGRxyPwi4 I have an out of the box B325, about 25 years old. Had a slight adjustment to the cast off done and, by shooting it a lot, adjusted my hold to the gun since pitch and drop measurements are not ideal for me. It's so obsolete that it doesn't even have interchangeable chokes. This is not the way to go if you are starting out, but then I knew nothing when I bought it. I went to shoot clays for the first time in 7 years last week. Hit 21 out of 25 on the first series, so I haven't forgotten how to do it. I picked the easiest course, why make it harder than it already is. As for cost on a decent gun, the Beretta Silver Pigeon I Sporting my brother ended up buying cost $1,850 USD. It fit him better than any of the other (about 5 guns tried) out of the box. The Browning Cynergy CX didn't fit well at all. He could have spent more money (around $3,500 USD) on a Browning B725 Pro Sport with the adjustable comb, but the Beretta with 30" barrels fits him very well at a very reasonable cost. On the firing line at a competition you can observe many great shooters using almost entry level guns, but they fit them well. I mentioned the difference between a hunting gun and a clays gun. Target guns can be heavy, which reduces felt recoil. Upland guns are carried all day so light is good. Most clays guns have sight pictures for a 60/40 pattern, meaning 60% of the pellet pattern is above the midline aim point. This allows the shooter to keep the clay in sight above the the rib sighting ramp or front bead and still get shot centered on the clay. Hunting guns don't (usually 50/50) since you cover the bird with the front bead, at least in theory, especially with side by sides and rarely have a raised rib. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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Hard to beat the Berettas for just about any application. Very good guns that have proven themselves for a long time. | |||
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I still have the Browning Citori gathering dust. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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Never mind. I have no truck with Commies. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Other Topics Shotgunning What would be a good value o/u today?
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