I need some solid advise. I have a beautiful British sxs sidelock by Watson Bros. 12 bore 2 5/8", double trigger with a straight french walnut stock with a Damascus barrel that is only proofed for black powder.
Option 1: Send to London for proofing so I can eventually shoot light loads, smokeless 1 1/8 for dove,quail type. Would you risk proofing the gun and spending the dough.

Option 2: Reline the barrels. By doing so how much balance will be lost in handling. If there are other options or people you recommend for the work I am all ears.

The gun is an 1892 vintage.

I would first take it to a gunsmith who clearly knows about Guns of that vintage. Have the the barrel walls measured etc. I don't think they had many nitro cartridges around when they made that gun, but if it has been used anytime in the last 50 years then it will have almost certainly used nitro at some time or other.

Heym SR20 thank you will look into it.

A gun of that vintage will have been made with 2.5 inch chambers - may well have been lengthened at some point. Check the chamber length at the same time.

Another option is to have a completely new barrel set made. Cost is high, but that leaves your barrels in the original condition. It probably wouldnt add resale value, but it wouldnt decrease value since you havent altered the oroginal gun.

I'd go about it by buying a lower price modern SxS for its tubes. I would then make a shoelump that would fit your action, and make a new forend.

If it something you would be interested in let me know.

Why send it to london?
You could have it proof fired in the US.

quote:

I need some solid advise. I have a beautiful British sxs sidelock by Watson Bros. 12 bore 2 5/8", double trigger with a straight french walnut stock with a Damascus barrel that is only proofed for black powder.

A few words from here in Britain...

As SR4759 says why send it to London, or Birmingham, for proof?

All that proof is, is an examination of the gun, then the firing in each barrel of an overloaded cartridge. Followed by an examination.

So proof doesn't somehow "make" the gun capable of now firing modern smokeless cartridges. There is no actual work done on or to the gun. Just the examination and then firing of the over pressure cartridges.

In fact what "proof" may even do is damage a gun that actually was perfectly safe and serviceable with modern smokeless cartrdiges OF NORMAL PRESSURE.

So you do risk damaging the gun if you "proof" it.

2 5/8" is a rare, but genuine, chamber length. I have seen a Boss gun with that chamber length. It is not common, but, OTOH, it is a genuine chamber length.

Here in Britain people in your situation do one of three things (after the gun has, as HEYM says, examination by a gunsmith competent with English guns):

1) Carry on using it but using it ONLY with factory BRITISH LOADED 1 Ounce loads in TRUE 65mm/2 1/2" cases using lead shot.

2) Have it proved for modern smokeless powder cartridges and then use it, pretty much, as above at 1)!

3) Put it aside and never use it again.

But! You are in the USA where a "can do" attitude prevails.

So after examination by a competent gunsmith I would consider loading my own ROLLED TURNOVER blackpowder cartridges, in paper cases, with genuine felt wads.

However! Often overlooked is that actually blackpowder gives a GREATER pressure down the full length of the barrels than does smokeless powder.

Smokeless may give a higher pressure in the immediate breech area but at the muzzle end of the barrels blackpowder gives the greater pressure.

It is for that reason that the old London and Birmingham "VIEW PROOF" (the marks on a Birmingham gun as BV and a London gun as a symbol over V) which was the proving of the barrels before any serious work was done was done with blackpowder...

I would, in any event, stay away from ANY 1 1/8 smokeless load in your Watson. With today's chilled shot and crimp closure cartridges 1 ounce of (English) No 7 or 1 1/16 ounce of (English) No 6 will kill just as well.

Cost of a new set of English made barrels? Wow! You'll get little if any change from US $ 7,500! But certainly a second set of modern steel barrels would only add to the worth of the overall package.

But I doubt if the worth of the package would ever re-coup the cost, at 2103 prices, of that second set of barrels.

And by law, in England, unless those barrels are made by Watson (or with Watson's "licence") the barrel maker is not allowed to put Watson's name on them.

You could have the barrels re-lined. The specialist in that, here in Britain, is Nigel Teague. He has done work on damascus steel guns and on Holland sidelocks etc., etc..

First rate work, it will enable you to have a gun, EXTERNALLY with the damascus appearance...BUT IT IS NOT CHEAP!

I'd charge around $4k for a new set of shoe-lumped barrels, a lot less than $7.5. Obviously they won't have the Watson name and I wouldn't believe it to add much if any resale value. But the idea being to take a gun and make it something you can safely use with modern loads(assuming the original barrels aren't safe), while not effecting the original action or barrels seems sound.

Thanks to all of you for your input. I stand corrected the chamber is 2 1/2". A few month's back I contacted a proof house in the U.S. I believe in Maryland and they talked me out of proofing. They were afraid that they will blow up the gun.
Aaron do you have any photos of previous similar projects. Do you also reline barrels.
enfieldspares you are a wealth of knowledge I will take all your information to heart. Do you recommend relining.
I will post some photos tomorrow.

PM sent. I do not reline.

Here is Teague's website, although I see now no reference ro total barrel re-lining.


http://www.teagueprecisionchokesltd.co.uk/

Do I recommend it? I'd rather advise that you have a GOOD and more importantly competent gunsmith experienced with English doubles check the gun out.

Now that isn't necessarily someone who just imports and sells English doubles.

Isn't there some old guy, English, who is now based in the USA who does that? Lists himself as America's only English bench trained gunsmith?

I think that Holland and Holland have a presence in the USA?

Here in Britain assuming that the gun is sound and that the barrels walls are of reasonable thickness and condition most people in fact do, as I noted, either 1) or 2).

Depends on the thickness of the barrels really. A friend used to use an old W W Greener 3" cahmbered damascus duck gun that was built like a scaffolding tube.

But OTOH if the barrels have been re-bored to remove pitting and re-finished on the outside to re-brown then those barrel walls could be very thin.

Thin walls, in themselves, aren't "dangerous, BUT of course do cause problems if you later put a dent in them as removin the dent then causes issues.

My advice would be get the wall thickness checked.

Jack Rowe is the person you are thinking of.

How about having briley or kolar make a set of aluminum removable tubes in 20 ga for your gun, like skeet shooters use, then you can use modern loads, and remove them latter.

Better late than ever but the photos are up with the help of the wife.
I am looking at all my options before I make the decision. Thanks to all of you again.

I would try and have this JACK ROWE the "only English bench trained gunsmith in the USA" check it out.

That it has a "dollshead" top extension has substantially increased the cost of ANY set of new barrels being made for it.

There is a fellow who regularly writes for Double Gun Journal who is an expert on smokeless loads for twist barrel guns. He has shot dozens of 10 bores with his smokeless loads that actually produce LESS pressure at any point in the barrel than black powder.
You should have your gun X Rayed to look for any failures in the twist as they cannot be seen from the outside or inside (with a bore scope). ANY interior pitting is a STOP sign.
I have a Cannon Breech 1880s Ithaca 10 bore hammer gun. It has passed X Ray but is choked so tight in its 32" barrels that a 12 gauge plastic wad will not drop out either muzzle.
Based on his suggestions, I use 1 & 1/4 oz of shot, in cut down Federal cases (2& 5/8) with 7625 powder. The shot is put in a 12 ga Federal wad with a 1/8" card wad under the shot. The 10 ga MEC is set to maximum wad pressure and the crimp is a hard star. Pressure transducer tests reveal 25% less pressure than a regular 10 ga Black load with felt wads (like "back in the day"). Shooting trap I have yet to make a 25, but have made many 23s which a'int bad for 11 pounds of steel, iron and walnut.
A quality twist steel gun in top condition is actually safer than inexpensive steel barreled guns of the same period. They held such an edge that cheap guns actually has decals put on them to simulate twist barrels.
You have a wonderful gun that deserves to see itself afield again. An extra benefit is that, being British, you can have it restored to like new with no impact on its value as the British regularly redo their guns. Funny how we will spend tens of thousands to restore an old GTO but believe an old gray 1886 is "better" than one that has been through Doug Turnbull's shop.
Good shooting !

Artshaw Thank you. I will try to find the contact information on the writer for the double gun journal.
Where were you able to X-ray the barrel?
You are 100% right a gun like this begs to be taken to the field. If it only can relate hunting adventures it's been on in the past 120 years.
Enfieldspares I am trying to look up Mr. Jack Rowe of Enid Ok. He has some gunsmithing videos and books sold through Midway and teaches at their local gun smithing school but no contact information for a shop or consultation phone number.
The gun balances beautifully as is. The action locks solidly. The damascus barrels of higher end guns are unique and are an art form all to their own. That is why I am reluctant or hesitant in chucking the barrel for a fluid steel model, unless I absolutely have to.
I have nothing but admiration for the craftsmen who put it together during a time of no CNC machining CAD CAM or power tools of any type.

I appreciate every one's taking the time to make an input. All of it has been helpful. As a student of the gun there is always room to learn.

As for the X Ray .... well I have a friend who has access and should not but.......

I would think if you looked up non destructive testing or called a few X Ray labs you could come up with somebody who would do it for a fee.

I understand and will do as described.

SR7625 is the powder of choice it was Ross Seyfied or Finn Argarrd(For give the spelling)

That did a lot of work in this area

SR7625 gives pressures in the 4000 to6000 psi range.

If the bores look in good shape and the action is tight I find some good SR7625 loads and go shoot it.

I will acquire some, thank you.

Actually the author was Sherman Bell.

Read this long thread to get an idea of what he found:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bb...13&t=259371&start=20

My friends and I shoot vintage 100+ year old guns all the time with low pressure smokeless loads. No need to re-proof. have a good smith look at barrel thickness, pitting. Find a source like RST for low pressure 2 1/2 shells and you should be good to go. Bob

Artshaw and bobc thank you.
After the input of all the members and a little research on my part. I decided to send the shotgun to a British born gunsmith who specializes in doubles in the Texas hill country by the name of Kirk Merrington. He is highly recommended with extensive experience with British doubles. I hope to get his blessings in going ahead and shooting it with low pressure loads. All of this will take a little time but when all is settled I will let you all know what transpired. Thanks again and best regards.
Charles

Beautiful shotgun, mlfguns. If you are talking about Enid, OK, that is Champlin Firearms and JJ Perodeau is the gunsmith. www.champlinarms.com JJ did some work for me on my drilling and combo gun. He also fitted a couple shotguns for me. I have been there a couple of times to visit and buy and I am very happy with JJ's work.

George Caswell works there also and is a wealth of knowledge on English SxS shotguns. I got a 1903 Charles Boswell sidelock with damascus barrels from him. It was nitro proofed for 2 3/4", 1 1/8 oz loads. I only shoot 2 1/2 oz light loads from RST as per George's advice. They kill birds fine and my shoulder is the only thing that can tell the difference. www.rstshells.com

I would talk to JJ and George as well just to get their thoughts. It would be a sin not to get your beauty shooting again.

Larry

SFRanger7GP thank you for the compliment. I whole heartedly agree and will make every effort to put it in the field. After it is vetted and with RST low pressure smokeless loads I will be one happy man. Because I hate cleaning blackpowder guns.
By the way I talked to George several times he is a wealth of knowledge. Earlier we were writing about Jack Rowe who is a distinguished gunsmith from England and now resides in the U.S. and has been for a while. He knows the inns and outs of British doubles. His address shows Enid, OK but I am not sure if he works for Champlin. He teaches or used to at the Oklahoma gun smithing school.
Charles