I went to a shop that was having a big sale looking for a side-by-side shotgun. I usually use a 12 gauge Remington 870 for everything from dove to waterfowl to deer. They had CZ Ringnecks, but only in 16 gauge. I bought it, but upon checking my catalogues I find that 16 gauge ammo is pretty scarce.

I envision trying this new gun for everything I usually do except deer. Is a 16 gauge worth having in spite of the ammo issue? I was thinking about exchanging it for a 12 or 20 gauge.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Exchange it ! A 20 3" will do about as well and even better is a 12 with it's huge selection of ammo.

Nothing wrong with the 16 ga. itself. The problem is that its faded from popularity so as you noticed not many loads are available and prices are high for ammo.

You could probably reload pretty reasonably for it or if you don't shoot a whole lot just enjoy it.

Kyler

check rummage sales etc. I bought 40 boxes of new 16 ga 4, 5, & 6 shot for $4.00 a box. It will keep my Marlin 16ga o/u for a long time. Also ask at you local gun shop about ordering, Remington, Winchester, and Federal offer about 4 different load combo's. Federal even has a 1 oz "game load" that you should be able to buy for about $1 more/ box than 12ga.

16 ga is a great gun in any make or model. Ammo is around, just need to watch for it, order it, or find a great deal at a show or garage sale.

I have 4 of them.

Do you like the gun?

If so, get a case of ammo each in the shot sizes you are going to be using. It will never be a problem again.

Or, buy a Sizemaster, and reload. Get a couple of cases of Remington Sport loads, and reload each hull about 10 times.

If you don't like the gun, take your losses now and get what you really want. JMO, Dutch.

Thank you all for your observations.

Dutch,

Your question is insightful: The bore size may just be my subconscious saying it doesn't care for the gun. Compared to the Gold Labels I was looking at that day, the CZ (a Huglu) was fairly clunky and stiff. I can't comment on its shooting qualities, as I am not shooting it so that I can return it more easily. The reason why I even considered the CZ was to economize on a SxS. Perhaps I should pay a bit more and get a European SxS. Any suggestions?

MVR- I think I have said this before- the words Cheap, low cost, less expensive and side by side just don't seem to fit together. In the shop I get to handle many different sxs and it just seems the nicer they feel the more they cost. I would go with some of the earlier advice, if you are not a 16 ga fan, take it back and at least buy the 12 gauge you wanted. I have a soft spot for the 16ga from my youth and always can find a reason to own one more, like I don't have a SxS 16, or gee this one has pretty wood- I am sure many guys know the feeling.

www.duanesguns.com

The best suggestion I can make is to go around and pick up a bunch of different ones.

I am kind of going through this with my wife. She wants a field o/u (she shoots a 391 for Sporting Clays and field). After picking up the Rizzini/Wby, the Berretta, the Brownings and several more, she keeps coming back to the Beretta 20 ga.

So, I put my friendly gun dealer on notice to call me when he gets a 20 ga. Beretta on a trade.

In your case, I'd also look at Elsie's, Parkers, and some of the Belgian guild guns, too. Whatever jumps into your arms and sticks to your fingers is the one you want. If you are on a budget, you just have to be a little more patient.

FWIW, I find the CZ sxs's clunky in 12 and 16. My team mate shoots a 12 for competition sxs events, and I can't hit the sky with it. On the other hand, in 20 and 28, they are properly proportioned, and I would consider them. HTH, Dutch.

The 16 gauge is a fine shell. You're right that it's not common in the stores, so 16'ers have to plan ahead.

And the 20 3" magnum is an abomination that should not be considered.

I just picked up a 16 gauge Merkel SxS, and I love it. I highly recommend Merkels and the 16 gauge.

Remington 16 gauge ammo is cheap ($3.69/box) at Bass pro, and you can order cases online if there's not a Bass Pro near where you live.

http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catalog.TextId?hvarTextI...&cmCat=SearchResults

And reloading for the 16 gauge makes sense. Ballistic products, Precision reloading, Grafs and others carry reams of load data, unfired hulls, even slugs (loaded or load your own).

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by yeti:

And the 20 3" magnum is an abomination that should not be considered.

Just when I was beginning to think that all of the other people on earth with logic and good taste had been killed and eaten by the Worlocks, a glimmer of hope for the future of the species is sparked. I can only hope that you are still of breeding age, Yeti. Can I introduce you to my daughter?

3" 20gauges, 3" 12 ga sxs's, and 3 1/2" 12 gauges: things that make you go "blech". JMO, Dutch.

I have one 3" 20 gauge but it was not bought for the chamber. It is an Ithaca (SKB) 280, straight stocked with 25" barrels and it weighs in at 5 1/2 pounds. A great chukar gun that I bought brand new in 1972 (and the rhyme was not intended). With 3" shells it does not make you go "belch", it makes you go "OWWWWW". I did it once, never again.

I have been doing some homework on the Internet to find an alternative for the CZ. Since I'd like to try the SxS for its nostalgic value, I narrowed it down to guns with an English grip and double triggers in a slightly higher price range. Top contender for now: Weatherby's (Fausti) Athena d'Italia 12 or 20 guage. As I live in an area without many gun shops I'm having to rely on published opinions. Do any of you have any thoughts about this gun?

MVR:

As an old man who grew up shooting at pheasants and ruffed grouse with a 16, I read your post with mixed emotions. Let me say it up front. Modern 20 gauges may very well suit you better than a 16.- because the 20's loads look so good. I used 16 ga. DBs -and one thing I am still convinced of even today- the 16 "patterned" more evenly at any range up to 30 yards better than a 20. I saw it when young and, in fact, the 16 had fewer "doughnut holes"(as we called them then -when the shot simply left a hole in the pattern -where the bird flew though)than a 12. How do I know? We conducted very scientific tests! We hung a sheet on a tree limb and stepped off and fired!. There is another reason why you should keep your 16 DB. It looks better as a DB draped over your arm in photos. The 20 looks like pencil thin barrels) There! I've given you conclusive arguments! No more talk about a 20 over a 16!

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
it makes you go "OWWWWW". I did it once, never again.

I was thinking about the 3" 12 ga "Gold Label", but you made the point even better! LOL! Dutch.

quote:

Originally posted by gerrys375:
There! I've given you conclusive arguments! No more talk about a 20 over a 16!

Gerrys375,

If I am now looking at a gun that comes in 12 or 20, but not 16, what would you recommend?

MVR,

Go to the 16ga Society website and forum. Ask questions there. Very nice bunch of guys who live & breathe the sweet 16.

http://www.16ga.com/forum/

I grew up hunting pheasants and all upland game on my family farm with a Ithaca model 37 featherlight. It got stolen years ago along with the rest of my collection. I tried a Rem 1100 but it is built on a 12ga frame--too heavy to carry all day long. I found a very nice 16ga O|U. It is a B. Rizzini, made in Italy. Weighs 6# even. Two shots is all I need anyway. I bought the Aurum light as pictured in the top middle photo here: http://www.fieldsportltd.com/gunroom/list.php?listBy=ma...yValue=17&makerId=17

I bought 16ga ammo at Dicks sporting goods. Rem black hull game loads for $3.99 a box. They knocked off 10% when I bought 2 flats. Bass Pro shops has the same thing for $3.69 plus shipping.

Browning is making a new run of 16ga Citoris this winter. Here is the link for more info: http://www.billhanusbirdguns.com/brwng06.html

MVR:

12 or 20? Now, I may do a flip flop from my previous remarks. I have to ask - using what gauge for what? If hunting ruffed grouse, I can see using a 20 (for lighter weight in carrying) Sitting in a blind for ducks? Use a 12. I don't mean to suggest that a 20 doesn't kill ducks. Far from it. I just wanted the extra punch -to make sure! A 20 will be great on quail and for rabbit hunting (again, it's that "carrying" of a pound less or so) In one of my last hunting outings I saw a 20 being used on preserve pheasants and those pheasants dropped. Yours truly was using a 12. Frankly, I'm inclined to think, as a retired hunter nowadays, that "it's all a matter of taste" - as the old lady said when she kissed the cow. (An old joke in my generation)

MVR:

I should have added that if you live in an area where it is "shotgun only" for deer, that the 12, undoubtedly, is better for using rifled slugs. Yeah, I know the 20 will kill with rifled slugs -but that 1 oz. of lead from a 12 does make bigger holes! Fact.

Gerrys375:

I won't indulge myself yet by having a special gun for this and another one for that. So I would probably use it for upland game as well as for waterfowl. From your remarks I gather that a 12 gauge is probably more versatile if a bit heavier.

Some counties in my state mandate use of slugs for deer. Is it OK to fire slugs out of a SxS?

MVR:

It's "OK" to fire slugs from a SXS from the viewpoint of safety. A double, unfortunately doesn't handle slugs as accurately as a single barrel might. (SxS shotgun barrels have as their primary purpose to handle shot loads for birds - so they are not matched at the factory as double express rifles are) I know from personal experience with slugs from a 12 double that if you are shooting at under 30 yards or so, that there is reasonable accuracy - though nothing like rifled slugs from a rifled barrel. You MUST find out just where the double throws the slugs -and be prepared to use some Kentucky windage! But, a double will handle the slugs readily at close ranges.

MVR:

I assume, of course, that the shells will conform to chamber lengths. A full choke barrel doesn't seem a good idea for slugs and an improved cylinder choke would seem best. I never fired slugs from a full choke barrel so I cannot speak to that. Even if lead is, indeed "soft" I kind of draw back from shooting a slug out of a full choke barrel. Just my thoughts.

Gerrys375,

Thanks for the benefit of your past experience. I will stick with my Remington 870 for the slugs. And I think I will get the SxS in 12 gauge: can't be seen with pencil-thin 20 gauge barrels draped over my arms in the pictures!

quote:

Is a 16 gauge worth having in spite of the ammo issue?

Firstly there is no ammo issue with 16 gauge. All the majors make it, around here (IL) you can find 16 ga. ammo easily. Federal has a good line, and Fiocchi USA in particular covers most eveything you could ask for as far as upland wingshooting needs. 16 ga. is far less costly than .410 or 28 ga.

A sixteen is as superior to a 20 as it is inferior to a 12, all things being equal.

Naturally, if you want just one wrench to fit all the nuts, 12 ga. is the obvious choice. Shoot what fits you.

Due to my advanced age and decidedly delicate condition, I'll opt to carry a 16 or 20 ga. over a 12 ga. any chance I get. Feels a lot better after walking 10 miles of thick ditch.

MVR:

In my book you already have shown your good judgment in firearms by carrying a Rem.870! You might want to look into the rifled choke tubes for use with the Rem. I never used one but I have heard good things about them and they do give a rifled twist to the slug so that rifled slugs can be used to be more effective. (I'm old fashioned and would prefer a rifled slug barrel,24", which gave me great accuracy at 50 yards with groups ranging from 2-3 inches) They will cost more (as I recall from 10 years ago or so, they ran about $175) They are made to fit the 870 -assuming that you have a Wingmaster)

MVR:

Forgot to add to my last post that I have used Hastings rifled slug barrels with both a Rem. 870 and a Rem. 1100. I found the accuracy with a 24"barrel to be really great. (using a scope) (2-3" groups at 50 yards were common for me. If you're shooting in northeast woods at deer that's a long shot! I just checked to see if they were still in business and found a website for them at 'hastingsbarrels.com". If you want to make that 870 into a "one gun" all around piece, look into Hastings. I recommend them highly.

Gerrys375,

Sorry to put you to the trouble of looking up the hastings website -- I actually already have a rifled slug barrel, which I use for deer.

I guess I should go sight in the Rem with slug barrel, now that deer season will soon be upon us, but those 12 gauge slugs kick like the dickens! Maybe I'll just stick with my bow!

MVR:

I smiled on reading that you found slugs to be kickers. I had always used 2 3/4" shells -and then one year I decided to try out 3" shells from my 870. I swear that I had always been fairly indifferent to recoil -until then. (see my user name) Those 3" slugs really jolted! I always had the impression that my 1100 handled slugs with less recoil than my 870. I suppose it's because the gas operated recoil soaked up a lot of recoil-although I'm just guessing. ( I never tried 3" shells in it) Anyway, I know how you feel.

Gerrys375,

Are you an aficionado of the .375 H&H? Last year I got it into my head by reading online forums like Accuratereloading and NitroExpress that I wanted to hunt in Africa. So after researching the matter I bought a Ruger RSM in .375 H&H. You are right, compared to the 12 gauge slug, the only thing that knocks you off your bench with the .375 is the price of the cartridge (and that was before I saw what a box of .470 NE cost!).

By the way, I was reading a review of an O/U shotgun, and the author notes approvingly that the gun's top lever did not return exactly to midline when the action was closed (stayed a bit to the right) -- something about how a new gun's top lever should behave that way. I had handled a pair of Ruger SxS's (http://www.hendershots.net/gunview.asp?GunID=551), whose top levers did not come to midline, and thought that the fit was not perfect. Evidently I was wrong. Can you explain this matter of the new top levers to me?

MVR:

I read your comments about the top lever not returning to exact midline of the grip with a strong sense of deja vu! It always has been that way as far as I remember and I was shooting DBs over 60 years ago. (Lord! Where has the time gone!) If the lever returned easily so that the shotgun closed snugly then I never worried about it and don't remember any problems. Whether new or old DB, I just don't remember if it mattered.(In old DBs that saw much use, there was sometimes an uneasy sense that the shotgun was too "loose" when the lever slipped back too quickly. That called for a trip to the gunsmith) If the lever does NOT come back easily with just the mere touch of the thumb and you feel like you have to use extra pressure to close the DB - then, again, hunt up a good gunsmith. (O/U's of course, always need that extra push down pressure and I really am not experienced at all with O/U's but I would think that the need to use any particular pressure on the lever or a general sense that you are forcing the gun to close is a warning)

To answer your other question - yes, I became an "aficionado" of the 375 H&H in my sixties, no less! ( I went to Africa at age 63 for Cape buff) I also used a Ruger. (In 1993 I think they called it the "African" model) I fired probably over 1500 rounds of 300 gr.SPs (Federal ammo mostly, I was not a reloader) My first rifle was stolen so I had to start over again with a second Ruger. Please move heaven and earth to get to Africa. Yeah, it's a lot of money (although a heck of a lot cheaper than a lot of North American hunts for moose, sheep or grizzly) Try to do all shooting from offhand. It will gain you the respect of the PH.Also try to learn to set up and shoot quickly- not necessarily making snap shots (although if you're good at snap shooting - a lot of Eastern deer hunters are - so much the better) This is an excellent website to get started on a buff hunt or any game hunt in Africa. I didn't have the advantage of using it then and simply stumbled by sheer dumb luck into getting a great outfitter, a great PH and getting a buff.hope it works out for you too!